Time to Revisit the Super Times?

voltdr · 12-06-2011, 11:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by luckydog

Now that is some funny ***** right there..............

We just went through this. Everyone voted to keep thing the same. This is why TD has gotten out of control. If you let the racer decide how fast to go, then the guys with the $$$$$ can take control. I know it is still a bracket race, after qualifying, but it is still intimidating knowing you have to run 6.80s just to get in. Why not make it a 64 car field.

Chris Williams · 12-06-2011, 03:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by voltdr

Now that is some funny ***** right there..............

We just went through this. Everyone voted to keep thing the same. This is why TD has gotten out of control. If you let the racer decide how fast to go, then the guys with the $$$$$ can take control. I know it is still a bracket race, after qualifying, but it is still intimidating knowing you have to run 6.80s just to get in. Why not make it a 64 car field.

I beg to differ. Everyone did NOT vote to keep everything the same. In fact more people voted for some kind of change than to keep it the same. They just didn't agree on what to change it to. The choices were lame, so the change vote was split, and the largest single vote was for no change. In short, the survey was poorly done.

I still contend that there is a something wrong with a 2+ second difference between classes. If you can't run mid-high 6's your next choice is to run almost 9 seconds. That's just stupid, especially when the difference in cost is tens of thousands of dollars. You can build a very competent SC car for $50k, but it will cost you twice that to make the TD fields in many divisions.

Jason Oldfield · 12-06-2011, 03:42 PM

I would contend that to build a competitive S/C car these days, you need to run in the mid-7s, which is exactly where you are at (mid-8s for S/G, and mid-9s for S/St). So, I don't see it as a 2 second difference between the classes, but 1 second, just like every other class.

Sure, there is close to a 2 second difference between the classes when you are running on the stop and the current T/D bump, but that's not a fair comparison in my opinion because you are CHOOSING to run the car on the throttle stop. Alternatively, you could choose to sell your current motor to one with less power and turn your throttle stop off and still run 8.90s. Sure, I know this sounds ridiculous, and it is, just like the current state of the .90 classes.

We'll never get any sort of consensus as to how the changes to the classes should be implemented because everyone is only looking out for their own best interests (and I'm not saying that I would be any different). In the end, the racers have spoken - run the .90 classes as they are now, run T/S or T/D, or stay home and run the brackets if you don't like it (which is what I've chosen to do, along with racing the TNT Super Street Series).

And as Damien said:

CBS · 12-06-2011, 03:56 PM

Don't bring the dead horse out again..(thanks for the dead horse examples).......I can't take it....I would think I was in the SS forum.....lol

Race S/C and have fun...if you think you will move to T/D and win more I think you're mistaken.....

Can't we get back to why Tommy D is ......xxxx

Rock Haas

Chris Williams · 12-06-2011, 04:23 PM

What you're saying is:

A person has two choices: spend about as much as a new Honda civic and run SC, or spend six figures and run TD.
The HP choices are 750 and 1750, nothing in between.
A motor in the 1000-1200 range that just two years ago would have been the cat's meow is little more than a boat anchor.
There's no place in the world for a big naturally aspirated motor.
The genius who decided that a time of x.90 regardless of how confusing that is, was the right and that can never be revisited.
Classes established years ago when just meeting the index was considered a good accomplishment can't be changed even though people commonly run 1.5secs under that.
The only choice is cars that run on the stop for 1/3rd of the pass and drive fans away in droves.
That the arms race is over and the $$ won.

It's just frigging broken. I don't care how many comics of a dead horse you guys post, it's stupid.

And yes, Rock, I'm gonna run SC but not because that's the only choice I have. I can afford to build a blown/squirted monster and compete in TD, it just seems stupid to do so.

voltdr · 12-06-2011, 04:57 PM

The $$$$ will almost always win. That is how the Super classes got started. No one has an advantage due to the size of their engines or spare parts list.
I started racing back when Super Gas used to be called Southern California Pro Gas, and you had to qualify (64 cars) to race in first round. I have pictures of my cars from then that look the same as now, No one in the stands. It isn't the throttle stops that keep the fans from watching. It's that there are too many things to do and see. All the circus acts back in the pits.
Back in the day I used to go up to watch the pro cars run time trials. But now I don't. Changing the Super classes to a quicker index will not bring in fans or more racers. It will just drop the cars that can barely run the index now. Look what happened to the car count for TD, by changing TD to a 32-car field they lost entries, Those cars went back to SC or brackets.
No matter what there will never be a consensus of how to change any class or what new class to add.
Dan

Jason Oldfield · 12-06-2011, 06:54 PM

A person has two choices: spend about as much as a new Honda civic and run SC, or spend six figures and run TD.

I don't think that's quite accurate, as I'm building a new S/C dragster right now, and complete, it's not going to be a $20,000 affair. I'm guessing that rolling, I'm going to have AT LEAST $27,500 in the car. Last time I checked, Civics weren't $45K+ complete.

The HP choices are 750 and 1750, nothing in between.

Not true. 750hp if you don't want to run a throttle stop in S/C and are content at 8.90 @ 148 mph, which I doubt you would be. My guess is that it's probably closer to 950hp and 1750hp, but if you want to be in-between, you are welcome to do so and either add more time to your throttle stop, or go bracket racing so that you can go faster.

A motor in the 1000-1200 range that just two years ago would have been the cat's meow is little more than a boat anchor.

Hardly in S/C. In T/D maybe. Sorry, that's how it goes when you want to run with the big boys (and though YOU may not consider T/D or T/S the big boys, I certainly do from my perspective).

There's no place in the world for a big naturally aspirated motor.

Untrue again. Sonny's just released a 1000 cid naturally aspirated motor. All you need to do is pony up the $100K for it, and you can go mountain motor Pro Stock racing with it. That said, the times are definitely changing, and if you want to go FAST, you had better start looking at nitrous, turbos, and superchargers.

The genius who decided that a time of x.90 regardless of how confusing that is, was the right and that can never be revisited.

Of course not. But, this is hardly a major issue. Can it be changed? Sure. Should it have been 11.00, 10.00, and 9.00 to begin with? Probably. Should we change it now after 30+ years of running it the way it is? I think these classes have bigger problems.

Classes established years ago when just meeting the index was considered a good accomplishment can't be changed even though people commonly run 1.5secs under that.

Untrue again. 30+ years ago when these classes were created we didn't have a problem meeting the indexes. The difference was that we didn't have electronically controlled throttle stops that allowed the arms race to start in these classes. The indexes can certainly be changed, but the indexes aren't the problem, the electronics are. Get rid of the electronics, add a 7.90 class, and your problem is solved.

The only choice is cars that run on the stop for 1/3rd of the pass and drive fans away in droves.

No, you can CHOOSE to run YOUR car any way YOU want. But again, I think it is well proven that running your car for the top end charge has a competitive advantage over other throttle stop configurations. But, feel free to knock yourself out entertaining the fans with full-throttle launches and a down-track throttle stop setup.

Again, eliminate the electronics, and we don't have this problem. And I am in FULL agreement with you, that the current method that people use to race their cars drives the fans away in droves. I'm sure I'm going to get flamed for that comment, as I can already see the "the problem is that the tracks don't educate the fans" rebuttals coming. Again, simple solution. Eliminate the electronics, create a 7.90 class, and competitors will start leaving the line at near full throttle again, and SOME of the fans will return (and believe me, I'm not naive enough to think that the .90 classes will EVER generate the fan interest that the nitro categories do).

That the arms race is over and the $$ won.

Hardly. But, if that's what you believe, then perhaps you should save your money and stay home, or bracket race at your local track.

It's just frigging broken. I don't care how many comics of a dead horse you guys post, it's stupid.

I completely agree with you. It is broken, and it is stupid. But, lowering the indexes is NOT going to FIX the problem, it's just going to exasperate it! Let's say we lower the S/C index to 8.00. Do you think everyone is going to be content running 7.60s flat out? Of course not! Those that can afford it, will immediately go out and start building a better motor so that they can run 7.0 flat out, hold more, and have the higher mph car. Those that can't afford it will slowly improve their cars to do the same.

Over the course of time, your typical S/C dragster will have on average a 1,300 hp naturally aspirated motor in it to be able to run 6.70s or 6.80s flat out. The cars will STILL sit for the first 1/3rd of the run on the throttle stop, we STILL won't have any fans watching, but now instead of $50,000 to field a competitive S/C dragster, it will be $75,000. Oh, and guess what, we'll STILL be racing for $1,000 to win from NHRA.

So, all that said, am I going to lead the charge for the ban on all electronics? Absolutely not. I've relegated myself to the fact that these classes are NOT going to change in MY lifetime, and that if I want to race, I can either accept these classes the way they are and enjoy myself while I compete in them, or find other classes to race. Sitting at home on my computer whining about it doesn't do me any good, as it just raises my blood pressure when I can't convince others to see it the way that I do. My only hope is that at some point in time in the future people start to see the REAL issues with these classes, drop their own personal agendas, and work towards the betterment of the sport. But, that will be something my kids can campaign for, as I'll be in a nursing home or dead by the time any of that happens.

Sincerely yours,

The Old Codger

Maverick · 12-07-2011, 04:03 PM

Last year at the local track, they had a series that they call RAGE. Had 10.0, 9.0 and 8.0 indexes, pro start. .400 tree, and no delay box. no throttle control or automated shifters. I have a automated shifter, and had other things going on so I had to pass on it last year. But this year I am preparing to eliminate the auto shifter so that I can run the Rage series. Don' know if I can run 9.0, but I am going to try. It is a series that they are trying to get started, and I plan to try it, as well as trying to compete in Super Gas. The track is at Indianapolis.

Rollins_2241 · 12-07-2011, 04:48 PM

I run a 130 mph S/ST car and ran a 160 mph S/C car and have won Wallys with both. The longer I race, the more I realize the truth of a veteran's advice to me long ago. "It's not about having what they have, it's about making what you have work". Of course speed is the single biggest advantage you can BUY in the Super classes (or any drag racing). But there are lots of advantages you can't buy except with lots of seat time and combination testing.

The current Super classes are not fun to watch, especially on TV. Even slow cars, when they leave together and run all-out side by side "look" faster on TV. I realized this when watcing Unleashed footage from the 12.0 class.

In Division 2, NHRA runs 10.0, 11.0 and 12.0 index classes along with Lucas Oil events. They are lots of fun and have essentially "Nostalgia Super Class" rules - no timers, no delay boxes, pro tree, heads up with a breakout. Those classes have a loyal following but won't grow rapidly unless they NHRA phases out the throttle stop classes. But they do attract new racers who have absolutely no interest in Super class racing and would not be spending their money and weekends at the racetrack otherwise.

12-06-2011, 03:42 PM	#3
Jason Oldfield Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Rochester, NY Posts: 619 Likes: 1 Liked 10 Times in 4 Posts	Re: Time to Revisit the Super Times? I would contend that to build a competitive S/C car these days, you need to run in the mid-7s, which is exactly where you are at (mid-8s for S/G, and mid-9s for S/St). So, I don't see it as a 2 second difference between the classes, but 1 second, just like every other class. Sure, there is close to a 2 second difference between the classes when you are running on the stop and the current T/D bump, but that's not a fair comparison in my opinion because you are CHOOSING to run the car on the throttle stop. Alternatively, you could choose to sell your current motor to one with less power and turn your throttle stop off and still run 8.90s. Sure, I know this sounds ridiculous, and it is, just like the current state of the .90 classes. We'll never get any sort of consensus as to how the changes to the classes should be implemented because everyone is only looking out for their own best interests (and I'm not saying that I would be any different). In the end, the racers have spoken - run the .90 classes as they are now, run T/S or T/D, or stay home and run the brackets if you don't like it (which is what I've chosen to do, along with racing the TNT Super Street Series). And as Damien said: __________________ Jason Oldfield S/G & S/St 1838

12-06-2011, 03:56 PM	#4
CBS VIP Member Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Commerce, Mi Posts: 1,387 Likes: 1 Liked 4 Times in 2 Posts	Re: Time to Revisit the Super Times? Don't bring the dead horse out again..(thanks for the dead horse examples).......I can't take it....I would think I was in the SS forum.....lol Race S/C and have fun...if you think you will move to T/D and win more I think you're mistaken..... Can't we get back to why Tommy D is ......xxxx Rock Haas

12-06-2011, 04:23 PM	#5
Chris Williams Member Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Woodinville, WA Posts: 401 Likes: 0 Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Re: Time to Revisit the Super Times? What you're saying is: A person has two choices: spend about as much as a new Honda civic and run SC, or spend six figures and run TD. The HP choices are 750 and 1750, nothing in between. A motor in the 1000-1200 range that just two years ago would have been the cat's meow is little more than a boat anchor. There's no place in the world for a big naturally aspirated motor. The genius who decided that a time of x.90 regardless of how confusing that is, was the right and that can never be revisited. Classes established years ago when just meeting the index was considered a good accomplishment can't be changed even though people commonly run 1.5secs under that. The only choice is cars that run on the stop for 1/3rd of the pass and drive fans away in droves. That the arms race is over and the $$ won. It's just frigging broken. I don't care how many comics of a dead horse you guys post, it's stupid. And yes, Rock, I'm gonna run SC but not because that's the only choice I have. I can afford to build a blown/squirted monster and compete in TD, it just seems stupid to do so. __________________ Chris Williams 6304 SC, TD, ET

12-06-2011, 04:57 PM	#6
voltdr Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Texas Posts: 706 Likes: 77 Liked 100 Times in 51 Posts	Re: Time to Revisit the Super Times? The $$$$ will almost always win. That is how the Super classes got started. No one has an advantage due to the size of their engines or spare parts list. I started racing back when Super Gas used to be called Southern California Pro Gas, and you had to qualify (64 cars) to race in first round. I have pictures of my cars from then that look the same as now, No one in the stands. It isn't the throttle stops that keep the fans from watching. It's that there are too many things to do and see. All the circus acts back in the pits. Back in the day I used to go up to watch the pro cars run time trials. But now I don't. Changing the Super classes to a quicker index will not bring in fans or more racers. It will just drop the cars that can barely run the index now. Look what happened to the car count for TD, by changing TD to a 32-car field they lost entries, Those cars went back to SC or brackets. No matter what there will never be a consensus of how to change any class or what new class to add. Dan

12-06-2011, 06:54 PM	#7
Jason Oldfield Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Rochester, NY Posts: 619 Likes: 1 Liked 10 Times in 4 Posts	Re: Time to Revisit the Super Times? A person has two choices: spend about as much as a new Honda civic and run SC, or spend six figures and run TD. I don't think that's quite accurate, as I'm building a new S/C dragster right now, and complete, it's not going to be a $20,000 affair. I'm guessing that rolling, I'm going to have AT LEAST $27,500 in the car. Last time I checked, Civics weren't $45K+ complete. The HP choices are 750 and 1750, nothing in between. Not true. 750hp if you don't want to run a throttle stop in S/C and are content at 8.90 @ 148 mph, which I doubt you would be. My guess is that it's probably closer to 950hp and 1750hp, but if you want to be in-between, you are welcome to do so and either add more time to your throttle stop, or go bracket racing so that you can go faster. A motor in the 1000-1200 range that just two years ago would have been the cat's meow is little more than a boat anchor. Hardly in S/C. In T/D maybe. Sorry, that's how it goes when you want to run with the big boys (and though YOU may not consider T/D or T/S the big boys, I certainly do from my perspective). There's no place in the world for a big naturally aspirated motor. Untrue again. Sonny's just released a 1000 cid naturally aspirated motor. All you need to do is pony up the $100K for it, and you can go mountain motor Pro Stock racing with it. That said, the times are definitely changing, and if you want to go FAST, you had better start looking at nitrous, turbos, and superchargers. The genius who decided that a time of x.90 regardless of how confusing that is, was the right and that can never be revisited. Of course not. But, this is hardly a major issue. Can it be changed? Sure. Should it have been 11.00, 10.00, and 9.00 to begin with? Probably. Should we change it now after 30+ years of running it the way it is? I think these classes have bigger problems. Classes established years ago when just meeting the index was considered a good accomplishment can't be changed even though people commonly run 1.5secs under that. Untrue again. 30+ years ago when these classes were created we didn't have a problem meeting the indexes. The difference was that we didn't have electronically controlled throttle stops that allowed the arms race to start in these classes. The indexes can certainly be changed, but the indexes aren't the problem, the electronics are. Get rid of the electronics, add a 7.90 class, and your problem is solved. The only choice is cars that run on the stop for 1/3rd of the pass and drive fans away in droves. No, you can CHOOSE to run YOUR car any way YOU want. But again, I think it is well proven that running your car for the top end charge has a competitive advantage over other throttle stop configurations. But, feel free to knock yourself out entertaining the fans with full-throttle launches and a down-track throttle stop setup. Again, eliminate the electronics, and we don't have this problem. And I am in FULL agreement with you, that the current method that people use to race their cars drives the fans away in droves. I'm sure I'm going to get flamed for that comment, as I can already see the "the problem is that the tracks don't educate the fans" rebuttals coming. Again, simple solution. Eliminate the electronics, create a 7.90 class, and competitors will start leaving the line at near full throttle again, and SOME of the fans will return (and believe me, I'm not naive enough to think that the .90 classes will EVER generate the fan interest that the nitro categories do). That the arms race is over and the $$ won. Hardly. But, if that's what you believe, then perhaps you should save your money and stay home, or bracket race at your local track. It's just frigging broken. I don't care how many comics of a dead horse you guys post, it's stupid. I completely agree with you. It is broken, and it is stupid. But, lowering the indexes is NOT going to FIX the problem, it's just going to exasperate it! Let's say we lower the S/C index to 8.00. Do you think everyone is going to be content running 7.60s flat out? Of course not! Those that can afford it, will immediately go out and start building a better motor so that they can run 7.0 flat out, hold more, and have the higher mph car. Those that can't afford it will slowly improve their cars to do the same. Over the course of time, your typical S/C dragster will have on average a 1,300 hp naturally aspirated motor in it to be able to run 6.70s or 6.80s flat out. The cars will STILL sit for the first 1/3rd of the run on the throttle stop, we STILL won't have any fans watching, but now instead of $50,000 to field a competitive S/C dragster, it will be $75,000. Oh, and guess what, we'll STILL be racing for $1,000 to win from NHRA. So, all that said, am I going to lead the charge for the ban on all electronics? Absolutely not. I've relegated myself to the fact that these classes are NOT going to change in MY lifetime, and that if I want to race, I can either accept these classes the way they are and enjoy myself while I compete in them, or find other classes to race. Sitting at home on my computer whining about it doesn't do me any good, as it just raises my blood pressure when I can't convince others to see it the way that I do. My only hope is that at some point in time in the future people start to see the REAL issues with these classes, drop their own personal agendas, and work towards the betterment of the sport. But, that will be something my kids can campaign for, as I'll be in a nursing home or dead by the time any of that happens. Sincerely yours, The Old Codger __________________ Jason Oldfield S/G & S/St 1838

12-07-2011, 04:03 PM	#8
Maverick Member Join Date: Dec 2010 Posts: 299 Likes: 2 Liked 36 Times in 26 Posts	Re: Time to Revisit the Super Times? Last year at the local track, they had a series that they call RAGE. Had 10.0, 9.0 and 8.0 indexes, pro start. .400 tree, and no delay box. no throttle control or automated shifters. I have a automated shifter, and had other things going on so I had to pass on it last year. But this year I am preparing to eliminate the auto shifter so that I can run the Rage series. Don' know if I can run 9.0, but I am going to try. It is a series that they are trying to get started, and I plan to try it, as well as trying to compete in Super Gas. The track is at Indianapolis.

12-07-2011, 04:48 PM	#9
Rollins_2241 Member Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: Tallahassee, FL Posts: 170 Likes: 0 Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Re: Time to Revisit the Super Times? I run a 130 mph S/ST car and ran a 160 mph S/C car and have won Wallys with both. The longer I race, the more I realize the truth of a veteran's advice to me long ago. "It's not about having what they have, it's about making what you have work". Of course speed is the single biggest advantage you can BUY in the Super classes (or any drag racing). But there are lots of advantages you can't buy except with lots of seat time and combination testing. The current Super classes are not fun to watch, especially on TV. Even slow cars, when they leave together and run all-out side by side "look" faster on TV. I realized this when watcing Unleashed footage from the 12.0 class. In Division 2, NHRA runs 10.0, 11.0 and 12.0 index classes along with Lucas Oil events. They are lots of fun and have essentially "Nostalgia Super Class" rules - no timers, no delay boxes, pro tree, heads up with a breakout. Those classes have a loyal following but won't grow rapidly unless they NHRA phases out the throttle stop classes. But they do attract new racers who have absolutely no interest in Super class racing and would not be spending their money and weekends at the racetrack otherwise.