Crate Engines in NHRA?

[Rory McNeil]

Originally Posted by Alan Roehrich

Now, a current Stock Eliminator engine IS a well scienced race piece, I agree completely on that point. Actually, that's part of my point. You can't go BUY a crate motor, put it in, and be competitive. You still have to do exactly the same thing to a crate motor. At least, you do if you want to go fast. And it costs the same. The ONLY advantage to a crate motor, expense or difficulty wise, is not having to search for a few castings.



I can sympathize with Chipper, having spent his money, and now being invested in something he's going to have a hard time racing. I hate to see it happen, to anyone.

Agreed, realisticaly, I can`t imagine that a pair of heads and an iron Q Jet intake & carb for a 77 Camaro 350 can be that hard or expensive to find, anywhere in North America. It certainly isn`t like trying to find Max Wedge or Hemi cores. To most people, low HP smogger motor stuff is scrap metal value, pricewise.My own car is a 1 year only, stick only combo, yet I was able to easily find 6 pairs of cyl. heads, 4 intakes, and 5 carbs, all the correct number stuff for next to nothing at swap meets, Craigsist, car forums, and wrecking yards. I gotta think there were many many more 77 350 Chevs produced, and likely the head & intakes were also used in other years.

[Dwight Southerland]

Alan and Rory, I do not disagree with most of everything you said. However, throwing another engine spec into the mix and another class formula is certainly not going to deteriorate the state of the class. And Alan, the point is not that the replacement parts are necessaily better, it's that the parts are not "stock" like Rory's production stuff is. If you spec a small block Gen I 350 Chevrolet with flat top pistons, a .450/.460 camshaft, 062 or 182 Vortec heads and allow a 750 Holley with an unmodified aftermarket manifold, then tag a relatively correct power number to it, what is the difference for tech, for classification or for the competition event?

[Alan Roehrich]

Originally Posted by Dwight Southerland

Alan and Rory, I do not disagree with most of everything you said. However, throwing another engine spec into the mix and another class formula is certainly not going to deteriorate the state of the class. And Alan, the point is not that the replacement parts are necessaily better, it's that the parts are not "stock" like Rory's production stuff is. If you spec a small block Gen I 350 Chevrolet with flat top pistons, a .450/.460 camshaft, 062 or 182 Vortec heads and allow a 750 Holley with an unmodified aftermarket manifold, then tag a relatively correct power number to it, what is the difference for tech, for classification or for the competition event?

Dwight, there won't be another class formula, that's the point. If there WERE going to be another class formula, they'd have created it when they allowed the Ford crate motors in new Cobra Jet kit cars that were never sold as a running vehicle at all.

Ford has never shipped a new 428 Windsor in a running car. And yet it isn't in a crate motor class, with its own formula. It's in with real production combinations, regardless of whether or not they've had superseded parts approved, and the production combinations are probably pretty clore to being factored correctly.

The factors won't be correct either, and we all know it. NHRA is evidently unwilling to correctly factor new combinations as submitted, or even get close, so we need to add a bunch of crate motors that they won't factor correctly, and make everything better? Surely you do not believe that will be what happens. And do you REALLY believe that if NHRA were to allow crate motors, we'd see a real increase in the car count?

[Dwight Southerland]

Alan -
But NHRA did create another formula with the DP and Ford cars. It's just that it is a formula that specifically applies to those combinations. You basically said it yourself that they take paper engines (crate motors) and put them in non-production bodies to make the cars that are now in competition.

My statements and comments are not arguing that NHRA ought to start "crate motor" classes, just that such classes and the cars that are defined by them are totally within the same functional rules and concepts of the whole of Stock Eliminator as it is defined now. It's kind of like when Farmer told me years ago that "stock" is what is in the class guides and what is "legal" is what passes tech. I just don't see the necessity of the vehement remarks that come out from the NHRA guys when IHRA crate motor cars are discussed. NHRA Stock Eliminator is in one perspective just a "formula" category that is only a vague semblance to mostly production automobiles in America.

To address your questions: Will NHRA likely add crate motor classes? Probably not, unless they get financially desperate and think that by tempting IHRA racers they can help the bottom line. If they decided to add crate motor classes, would the car count increase? Probably not that either, unless that becomes an effective way for racers of old car combinations to stay away from the new cars that are being destined to overtake the existing classes.

You comments about the lack of equity in factoring answers itself. That's a moot point as far as I am concerned. We are seeing the most blatent screwing and inconsideration of the Stock Eliminator competitors imaginable. What is going on is the frog in the pot waiting for the water to boil or the Jews being moved to the ghettos in Krakow. The AHFS is designed to not correct the power factors, only to give the semblance that it will. It doesn't even keep up with old, known combinations, much less the new ones that are given such preferential status. The intent is to kill off the old cars gradually, and it is a marketing decision. These guys are looking ten years out and trying to keep their product attractive to a changing audience, and the audience is not the competitors.

Another factor that I hate is that the new cars are so expensive. When the economic statistics of the country support the fact that no more than 2.6% of the population can even afford to build and race a $100,000 race car, Stock Eliminator is beginning to look like polo - eclectic and only for the rich. The fly in the ointment is the Billy Nees and Bob Shaw racers, but how many new racers are being educated into that perspective and mentality? If you can't get old racers to really honor them, so what chance to pass on the wisdom? Even if there were a "move" to more practical and not-ego-driven race car building, NHRA would strategize a way to make them uncompetitive. They have a product to sell, not races to run, and they know that mindless excitement, lust, greed and ego sells races, not true competition.

Sorry for the rant, guys.

[CrateCamaro]

Originally Posted by Alan Roehrich

Now, a current Stock Eliminator engine IS a well scienced race piece, I agree completely on that point. Actually, that's part of my point. You can't go BUY a crate motor, put it in, and be competitive. You still have to do exactly the same thing to a crate motor. At least, you do if you want to go fast. And it costs the same. The ONLY advantage to a crate motor, expense or difficulty wise, is not having to search for a few castings.

If you build a new crate motor, and you don't put the trick stuff in it, like race bred pistons, big pushrods, and the rest, it'll be a slug. All of that stuff has nothing at all to do with the argument against crate motors, that's just a matter of racers cheating, and NHRA deciding to allow it rather than police the class. They don't want to tech to prevent it, so they let it in.

NHRA has already proven they're not going to define and police anything. So why add a bunch of new stuff that they're not going to police and define better than what we already have? THAT is the problem with crate engines. They can come up with a new engine, on paper, with parts from a catalog, assign a soft factor to it, and start all over again, any time they want. NHRA will not add crate classes, they don't want more classes. Honestly, the majority racers don't want them either, and the class can't stand it.

For crate engines to get in NHRA, they'd be added into the current classes. We already have bogus paper crate cars, we really don't need any more of them.

I can sympathize with Chipper, having spent his money, and now being invested in something he's going to have a hard time racing. I hate to see it happen, to anyone.

I was going to be nice and just ignore this post but its snowing and all my "Crate Motor" parts are at the machine shop so your going to get a blasting...

Crate Motors really came into the picture in IHRA to help sell GM crate engines. They are nothing more than a replacement engine for a muscle car thats over the counter and has a warrenty. So when your tired old 350 295hp motor gives up...you can go to the dealer and purchace a 350 300hp or go for the 330hp 350 that has nothing more than 96 and up GM Vortec PICKUP TRUCK HEADS...yes we race with tow vehicle heads. The cool thing is that Mopar and Ford jumped on board and had their own crate engines...so now we have 60's racing all over again with the big 3. Its not like we are lightly factored either. Have a look at some of the combo's before you even talk about soft factoring.

Im sorry that you are a hard nose die hard stock eliminator racer that cant see outside of rotten cast iron intakes and garbage 40 year old carbs that have the right numbers. This is a thing of the past. I would love nothing more than to go buy a 396 and build it to stock eliminator glory....even a 327 or 350...but the parts are not out there anymore. Go to a local wrecking yard and try to find one of these engines...they are not there. And if you do find a usable core in the local paper they want your first born child to own it. And really what is the difference if they allow crate engines in NHRA? You think it matters when the tree is coming down? No it doesnt. You need to step back and look at the whole picture...never mind heads up runs and "class eliminations"...all stockers weather it be a 350 295hp or a crate 350 330hp ITS A BRACKET RACE....a glorified bracket race with rules and a 30x9 slick. WAKE UP.

Im not interested in having an internet war with you. Im sure your a great guy and everyone wants to give you a high five and hero biscut because you have a real stocker but there are young guys like myself who find it a bit easier to build and find a crate engine. You are right about one thing...we dont buy them at the dealer plunk them in and race. It takes alot of tweeking to make it run just the same as any stocker engine. I only know of one guy who actually bought a crate motor at the dealer and then took it apart and changed it over to run stock. I take pride in the combo I run and alot of my friends also run the crate combos and love it.

So instead of bashing and talking about something you really dont know much about...talk to some "crate engine" racers and ask us about it instead of not allowing us to play in your sand box. If IHRA folds up we would have nowhere to go...and im not going to build a complete new combo to race NHRA. And its not like there is only 6 guys in the world who race crate motor...there is thousands. So instead of being bias and saying "NO WAY THIS CANT HAPPEN" think outside the box a little bit brother!

Geesh...you guys dont even complain this much about a stocker with a power adder

[Ed Wright]

It's not likely at all to happen, but due to NHRA not wanting to add classes. Not guys here not liking them.

I still don't understand building a car limited to either association alone.

Like some bracket racers around here that run an 1/8th mile track at home, gearing the car too low to run 1/4 mile. Why would anybody do that?

[Alan Roehrich]

Blast away if it makes you feel good, I could care less.

If you can't find parts to build a 396/375, or a 255/350, you just aren't looking. Sorry, I'm not buying that line. It's a crock. I can go out and drag up all of the heads, cranks, intakes and carburetors to build either in a couple of days. Anyone that can't just isn't looking.

When we had the G/S car, I ended up with an extra set of the good 441 heads, an intake, and 3 carburetors, almost by accident. I passed on 2-3 steel cranks. We didn't even have the car for more than a year, and I had enough stuff I found just fooling around AFTER the car was bought to build another complete engine. I didn't even have $300 in all of the castings and carburetors, and could have had the cranks for $100 each.

You don't even have to hunt for anything to build a 396 now, GM sells the new replacement heads and intakes, Quickfuel sells the carburetors, Dart is even making a run of 396 blocks. There are 3-4 companies that have all of the 6223 cranks you can use, or call Bullet, they have them prepped and ready to go. So the whine about finding parts for a 396 is a complete joke. You can buy it all over the counter just like a crate motor. So, yeah, if you want to take the easy route, and be sure you have a place to race, you can do it. There's you a "crate motor" that fits in a regular class, so you're just clean out of excuses snow. You don't even have to get your hands dirty, open the classifieds, or do anything but pick up the phone. Jeg's or Summit will deliver most of it to your door, and you can take it to the machine shop just like your 330-350.

And if you DON'T want to build one all aftermarket, 454 blocks are everywhere, have one sleeved, it's been done that way for years. You can buy an original 163 intake on ebay for $200 or less. A 3310 Holley you can buy new, or buy one of the old ones off ebay. You can find 840 heads on ebay for under $1k, all you have to do is open your eyes and look. The same pieces will build you a 427, just don't sleeve the block down.

I was working on crate motors before they ever GOT to IHRA, for other racing series, you ain't telling me anything about crate motors I don't already know.

If it makes you feel better, go ahead and blast some more, I can take it just fine. Some of us DO care about class eliminations and heads up racing. And most of us with any common sense at all see that NHRA is not at all likely to put crate motors in their own classes. They just took the fuel injected cars OUT of their own classes, and put them in the original classes. And they put the new Ford crate motor cars in the regular classes, too.

Think outside the box? Are we going to find a new paradigm too? I just love cliches, they're so useful. How about we fix what is INSIDE the box FIRST, before we go outside the box or dump a bunch more stuff in it? There's a new paradigm for you.

[CrateCamaro]

Originally Posted by Alan Roehrich

Blast away if it makes you feel good, I could care less.

Id much rather be hashing this out over a few cold ones in the garage

Like I said no internet wars...you have your opinion, I have mine and we will agree to dissagree.

Not sure where you are from but we are surrounded by stock car hillbillys that have used up all of our good castings and because of economical times in our "steel town" alot of good castings have been scaled at the wreckers in trade for a 12 pack of cheap beers. All of our wrecking yards are picked of anything 1978 and down...its very rare to see a 441 head...usually its a 336X. Every good set of castings in our yards are gone. I will admit i am a die hard stock eliminator fan....I have been on the hunts for cars and castings only to come up with rotten old junk...our best find was a 69-70 Impala (so smashed and rotten we needed to contact next of kin to tell us what it was) 350 300hp that was in this yard since 1971. Yank'd the heads and intake only to find the heads were so rotten the valves were part of the chamber. There was a q-jet onto of the intake that resembled whats in a box of powdered pancakes. This is what turned me off of "casting number" racing and got me into crate class. Vortec heads, any intake under the stock hood, 750 carb, stocker cam and it will run. And if you want to go 5 under the index no trick parts required...5+ and up buy the trick parts.

[Alan Roehrich]

There ain't no hotter bed of circle track racin than right here in Tennessee. They've used up the supplies around here, but you can still find stuff.

[Ed Fernandez]

Originally Posted by CrateCamaro

Id much rather be hashing this out over a few cold ones in the garage

Like I said no internet wars...you have your opinion, I have mine and we will agree to dissagree.

Not sure where you are from but we are surrounded by stock car hillbillys that have used up all of our good castings and because of economical times in our "steel town" alot of good castings have been scaled at the wreckers in trade for a 12 pack of cheap beers. All of our wrecking yards are picked of anything 1978 and down...its very rare to see a 441 head...usually its a 336X. Every good set of castings in our yards are gone. I will admit i am a die hard stock eliminator fan....I have been on the hunts for cars and castings only to come up with rotten old junk...our best find was a 69-70 Impala (so smashed and rotten we needed to contact next of kin to tell us what it was) 350 300hp that was in this yard since 1971. Yank'd the heads and intake only to find the heads were so rotten the valves were part of the chamber. There was a q-jet onto of the intake that resembled whats in a box of powdered pancakes. This is what turned me off of "casting number" racing and got me into crate class. Vortec heads, any intake under the stock hood, 750 carb, stocker cam and it will run. And if you want to go 5 under the index no trick parts required...5+ and up buy the trick parts.

Well then there's three trains of thought.
1)Spend the money for a combo with all the "hard to find parts and castings".
2)Look in the guide for a combo that you can find/buy parts for.(For example I run an AMC,there's a ton of parts available if you want to search them out)
3)The description that Dwight used is the ultimate definition of a bracket race car.You can do that.After all we get reminded now and then that class racing isn't suited for everybody.