How would you SAVE CLASS RACING ???

[Evan Smith]

At events where Class Racing is contested:

For the purpose of Class Eliminations, combine classes to lessen the number of overall classes, and to increase the difficulty in winning. This is racing, not singling! I've singled for enough class trophies and don't feel any sense of pride from it. Raise the entry fee to anyone who wants to participate and have 100% of the money go back to the racers, but anyone wishing not to participate can pay regular fee and stay in normal class.


Example:
AA/S and AA/SA, run together.

A/S, B/S, C/S and the automatic versions all run in one class.

D,E, F

G, H, I

J, K, L

M, N, O

P, Q, R,

All FWD, run staggared tree off own index or class closest to weight break.

Of course I understand that this doesn't suit everyone, but we have to be proactive and accept changes for this to survive and potentially grow. There would be eight class champions and each would be well earned. Yes, you may have to swing some weight, but that's racing my friends.

At the same time change the following:

Award points for qualifying: 16 to the number one qualifier, then 15, 14, etc and 1 point for 16th place.

Award round-win points for rounds won during Class Eliminations. If you can earn points for a heads-up run in eliminations, why not get some points for Class. And combining classes would allow everyone an opportunity to earn some valued points.

Award 20 points for setting a national record, up to twice per season.

This is a simple reward for those who show up because they actually like the performance aspect of Stock and Super Stock.

[art leong]

Originally Posted by Evan Smith

At events where Class Racing is contested:

For the purpose of Class Eliminations, combine classes to lessen the number of overall classes, and to increase the difficulty in winning. This is racing, not singling! I've singled for enough class trophies and don't feel any sense of pride from it. Raise the entry fee to anyone who wants to participate and have 100% of the money go back to the racers, but anyone wishing not to participate can pay regular fee and stay in normal class.


Example:
AA/S and AA/SA, run together.

A/S, B/S, C/S and the automatic versions all run in one class.

D,E, F

G, H, I

J, K, L

M, N, O

P, Q, R,

All FWD, run staggared tree off own index or class closest to weight break.

Of course I understand that this doesn't suit everyone, but we have to be proactive and accept changes for this to survive and potentially grow. There would be eight class champions and each would be well earned. Yes, you may have to swing some weight, but that's racing my friends.

At the same time change the following:

Award points for qualifying: 16 to the number one qualifier, then 15, 14, etc and 1 point for 16th place.

Award round-win points for rounds won during Class Eliminations. If you can earn points for a heads-up run in eliminations, why not get some points for Class. And combining classes would allow everyone an opportunity to earn some valued points.

Award 20 points for setting a national record, up to twice per season.

This is a simple reward for those who show up because they actually like the performance aspect of Stock and Super Stock.

Evan. I think this is much more reasonable than the current change. Not perfect but a lot better.
But the problem is This other plan is a done deal. "Elvis has left the building"
The only thing I can hope for now is something in writing guaranteeing no more overnight major changes. No more back door deals.
Put any proposed major changes out to the SRAC at least 6 months prior to implementation.

[Alan Roehrich]

Here is what people need to understand about contingency money, from the point of view of the contingency sponsor, and remember, those are the people you are expecting to pay you real money, out of their pocket, for your hobby.

A sponsor is a person who pays you money in exchange for positive marketing exposure. They expect you to win or do well in competitive racing, and show good performance, to give their potential customers a positive view of their product. They absolutely MUST be able to, for lack of a better term, BRAG about your performance.

If you do not beat other cars racing heads up, and go fast, they have nothing to brag about, and no real reason to sponsor you when it comes to class eliminations.

If there aren't any cars for you to race, that is not any fault of theirs. And you cannot reasonably expect a sponsor to pay for anything other than results and positive exposure.

Contingency sponsors are in business. This is not a hobby for them. It is how they make a living. Sponsor money comes from the marketing budget. Marketing must bring in customers.

Very few of us do this as anything other than a hobby. As such, if we're not producing real results for contingency sponsors, we have no reasonable expectation to be paid by them.

Something else needs to be clear here. Drag racing is the ONLY sport that will even begin to tolerate classes where only one car shows up to race. Go ANYWHERE else in the motorsports world, and see how long ANY class will last if no one shows up to race. Fans will refuse to watch one car race. If the fans are not watching, the sponsors are not getting anything for their marketing dollar. Were they in any other form of motorsports, about 90% of these classes that have 10 or less cars nation wide, would have long since been completely eliminated, or merged into something else.

Everyone needs to understand, no one owes you a place to race just because you build a car you like, or you can afford. For the tracks, for the promoters, and for the sponsors, racing is business, and most of the people on their staffs are trying to make a living and feed a family. For most of us, racing is a hobby, no matter what you spend. Those people trying to make a living do not owe us a place to play with our hobby toys out of the goodness of their hearts. We must give them something in exchange for the place to play with our hobby, or we can expect to have no place to play, because we have no reasonable expectation of having others pay for our hobby.

We ALL really have to look at this from the position of what the sponsors get out of what they spend on us. No matter how much you happen to like a particular class or car, if there's not much competition in that class, there's just no way you can reasonably expect a business to pay for that class.

Sure, maybe it only pays $100 for a win for each decal. But look at it like this. If 60-70 cars show up at a race that has class eliminations, odds are that only about 1/2 of those cars are going to have another car in their class, at best. So you have 30-35 or so cars making a single for class. If you have a big market share, say 50-60% or better, that means you're going to pay out $1500 or so for single passes. So you're paying $1500 per event that runs class, for something that does not pay you back in marketing results.

While some people will say "well, it's only $1500", but it isn't their money, and if it happens at 5-7 races, then it becomes $7500 or more. Now some people are going to say, "well, those companies make millions of dollars", but the fact remains, they make that money by spending wisely. Think about what other marketing they can buy for $7500 to $10K a year or more.

Now, to be fair about this, I think NHRA shoulders a ton of blame for this. They do such a poor job of promoting the classes, and such a poor job of showcasing class eliminations, that it severely cuts the value of the dollars that contingency sponsors spend to pay us. Further, while it does take some money for NHRA to manage the contingency program, their cut is entirely out of line for what they do for the money they are paid.

Last year, we had a class win, an event win, and a runner up, at one event, for two cars that I served as engine builder and crew chief on. So I was there to see what NHRA did as far as the contingency program was concerned. I can promise you they didn't spend a lot of money paying the guys that checked those two cars for decals on Sunday. We filled out the sheets, and showed them the decals. Then we had to show the contingency sponsors proof of purchase. It ain't like NHRA had a dozen people doing all the paper work for us.

There is plenty of blame for the current situation to go around. No one has to like it, but we all have to live with the facts and the reality of the situation. Companies are under no obligation what so ever to step up and pay contingency. In this economy, they absolutely must consider where they spend money, and what return they get for it. The simply fact is that several companies have gone bankrupt, some have survived, some have not.

[Alan Roehrich]

Art, it doesn't matter what you spend on parts, that's not why they pay you contingency money. It's called "contingency SPONSOR program" for a reason. They don't pay you contingency money just because you spent money on their parts. They pay you contingency money to advertise for them. If they don't think a single pass is a good advertising value, that is their decision, you have no right to expect to be able to force them to pay.

Buying parts does not automatically entitle you to get paid, I've bought a ton of parts from people who do not pay contingency at all, simply because it was the best part for the race car. Companies can elect to pay or not, it's a free country, and a free market economy, at least to an extent. They can pay out money any way they see fit, or not at all. See, it is their money, it is not your money, or my money. It belongs to them.

This "entitlement" mentality is amusing. Especially from people who call themselves "conservative" outside of racing.

You know, you can always vote with your wallet, if you don't like the way contingency sponsors want the program where they GIVE you their money structured, you can always buy your parts somewhere else, and tell them why.

I'm fully aware that a lot of the singles for class are stick cars. Some of my best friends run stick cars. We ran one too, for a while, and may run one again. If we have a single for class, and they don't want to pay us, well, it was their money, not ours.

I personally couldn't care less how many singles you or anyone else gets for class, it does not matter to me. It does not cost me a dime.

All I'm doing is telling you what people in the business are faced with. You don't have to like it, you don't have to agree with it, you don't have to believe me.

But you'll have to deal with the reality of the situation, like it or not, sooner or later.

See, I carry the "conservative" mentality over to racing, too. I have no right to tell other people how to spend their money, it is not my money, it is their money.

Do you feel you have a right to tell people how they can spend their money? Because by demanding contingency sponsors pay the way YOU want them to pay is telling other people how to spend their money. Are you sure you have the right to do that?

In any event, you guys just go ahead and do or say whatever you want. I'm not going to contribute to dragging this post off topic anymore. You can deal with your persecution complexes however you want. I had nothing at all to do with this change, no one asked me anything. I seriously doubt any of the racers had anything to do with it, but feel free to feel like everyone is out to get you if that's what you want. We're going racing, so I'm going back out to the shop to work on our old worn out slow junk, and you guys can deal with this situation any way you see fit.

Ken, I apologize for dragging this off topic, I'll contribute no further to hijacking this thread.

[B Aceves]

Originally Posted by Alan Roehrich

Art, it doesn't matter what you spend on parts, that's not why they pay you contingency money. It's called "contingency SPONSOR program" for a reason. They don't pay you contingency money just because you spent money on their parts. They pay you contingency money to advertise for them. If they don't think a single pass is a good advertising value, that is their decision, you have no right to expect to be able to force them to pay.

Buying parts does not automatically entitle you to get paid, I've bought a ton of parts from people who do not pay contingency at all, simply because it was the best part for the race car. Companies can elect to pay or not, it's a free country, and a free market economy, at least to an extent. They can pay out money any way they see fit, or not at all. See, it is their money, it is not your money, or my money. It belongs to them.

This "entitlement" mentality is amusing. Especially from people who call themselves "conservative" outside of racing.

You know, you can always vote with your wallet, if you don't like the way contingency sponsors want the program where they GIVE you their money structured, you can always buy your parts somewhere else, and tell them why.

I'm fully aware that a lot of the singles for class are stick cars. Some of my best friends run stick cars. We ran one too, for a while, and may run one again. If we have a single for class, and they don't want to pay us, well, it was their money, not ours.

I personally couldn't care less how many singles you or anyone else gets for class, it does not matter to me. It does not cost me a dime.

All I'm doing is telling you what people in the business are faced with. You don't have to like it, you don't have to agree with it, you don't have to believe me.

But you'll have to deal with the reality of the situation, like it or not, sooner or later.

See, I carry the "conservative" mentality over to racing, too. I have no right to tell other people how to spend their money, it is not my money, it is their money.

Do you feel you have a right to tell people how they can spend their money? Because by demanding contingency sponsors pay the way YOU want them to pay is telling other people how to spend their money. Are you sure you have the right to do that?

Alan,
Some of this makes perfect sense BUT... Why do they require we use the parts then if its just a advertisement ? Take Jiffy Tite for example, they require you spend at least 200$ per car with fittings. A bunch of manufactures only pay for a Ellim win but not class.
And I doubt very much all the PRO payouts with Contingency they even think of using those parts. My point is, Its the marketing strategy being used and the dollar amount they spend on return, 5,500$ is a ton of money for them to dish out so has NHRA lowered the cost of that in this situation to help ?? Doubt it

[Alan Roehrich]

Originally Posted by art leong

Alan I never said anyone had to pay me.
I am doubting that any sponsor would deny someone who ran a single in a class they posted for.
The picture they use is going to be a side shot showing only one car.
The whole purpose for contingency is advertising. If you think there are many people watching from the stands you are highly mistaken. So not many people know how many cars are in the class.
No one can name one sponsor that supports this change.
The one that makes out like a bandit is nhra.

BTW
And I congratulate you on your ability to bring politics and personall attacks on this board and not get chastised
I guess it's all about, who sides with you.

Personal attacks Art? Where did I attack anyone personally?

The political position was merely an example. If it offended you, well, I guess you're easily offended. Not much I can do about that.

I understand exactly what contingency is all about. That is exactly the point I made. It's about advertising.

I am not on anyone's "side". I cannot help it if people seem to think other racers are "out to get them". I think I said clearly that it doesn't matter to me if you or anyone else singles for class. Plenty of my good friends run stick cars and may single for class.

I had nothing to do with this decision, and I don't know anyone who did.

All I said was that I can understand how and why a contingency sponsor can come to such a decision from a strictly business stand point.

I don't think anyone can honestly look at anything I've said anywhere on this site or anywhere else and say I'd take the side of NHRA, either.

Art, if you feel everyone who disagrees with you is making a personal attack, and you get your feeling hurt, I can't help you with that. You seem to be perfectly willing to call people who disagree with you out, I think you need to either get a little thicker skin, or find a different way to converse with people you disagree with.

[Alan Roehrich]

Originally Posted by B Aceves

Alan,
Some of this makes perfect sense BUT... Why do they require we use the parts then if its just a advertisement ? Take Jiffy Tite for example, they require you spend at least 200$ per car with fittings. A bunch of manufactures only pay for a Ellim win but not class.
And I doubt very much all the PRO payouts with Contingency they even think of using those parts. My point is, Its the marketing strategy being used and the dollar amount they spend on return, 5,500$ is a ton of money for them to dish out so has NHRA lowered the cost of that in this situation to help ?? Doubt it

Bob,
They require you to use the part because they're using your performance to sell their parts. The idea is "Bob won this race running our parts, if you buy our parts, you'll be a winner too". Sure, they want to know you're spending money with them, too. But they want proof that you're running their parts just as much to prove their parts are on winners as they do to make sure you spent money with them. It really isn't good for them if they pay you, but you tell all your friends that you're really running something else.

And if you'll note, I think I did a pretty fair job of calling NHRA out for being a big part of what has happened. I doubt I'm high on NHRA's "number one fan list", either.

Again, I'm not on ANYONE'S side. I merely said I can see where the contingency sponsors could feel like they weren't getting their money's worth out of singles. I never even said I agree with it. I just said I can see where they're coming from.

I do not have a single shred of evidence that this was engineered by NHRA to cheat the racers, nor where it was lobbied for by a select group of racers for their own benefit. I have not seen anyone produce any evidence of either being the case.

[Yo Ken]

It's a shame that members can not stay on topic, please do not post unless you have a suggestion for improving class eliminations.

Art, don't take this personal, but I am tired of your insinuations about how I run this forum. If you feel you are being treated differently than others, you are mistaken. You seem to have a (why is everyone always picking on me complex), Its not all about you.

You have made post after post slamming the new program, claiming its all about how the other guy will get hurt, frankly It's getting old. If you have nothing positive to contribute to this topic, please do not post. You can post you displeasure with everything that is wrong with NHRA, me and anything else you like in your own thread. I am sure you have plenty of fans that agree with you.

I will remove every post that I deem to be not on topic. For the rest of you who didn't know why I made this post, you know now. It seems that some members do not want the new system to work, which is fine, but this is not the thread for that.


Alan, do not worry about it, I understand what you are trying to do.


Ken Miele

[B Aceves]

Originally Posted by Alan Roehrich

Bob,
They require you to use the part because they're using your performance to sell their parts. The idea is "Bob won this race running our parts, if you buy our parts, you'll be a winner too". Sure, they want to know you're spending money with them, too. But they want proof that you're running their parts just as much to prove their parts are on winners as they do to make sure you spent money with them. It really isn't good for them if they pay you, but you tell all your friends that you're really running something else.

And if you'll note, I think I did a pretty fair job of calling NHRA out for being a big part of what has happened. I doubt I'm high on NHRA's "number one fan list", either.

Again, I'm not on ANYONE'S side. I merely said I can see where the contingency sponsors could feel like they weren't getting their money's worth out of singles. I never even said I agree with it. I just said I can see where they're coming from.

I do not have a single shred of evidence that this was engineered by NHRA to cheat the racers, nor where it was lobbied for by a select group of racers for their own benefit. I have not seen anyone produce any evidence of either being the case.

Well I was not trying to come off sounding as if I was saying your taking sides Not one Bit !! If anything right now we need to stop making personal attacks and all this negative and turn it into postive energy to come up with a solution or at least make us feel like we can help, The problem is these decisions come as a surprise and sudden and right now with all the other situations going on this did not help matters one bit.

[Ed Wright]

People have mentioned combining stick & automatics. Since the performance difference pretty much no longer exists, what would be the down side? More heads ups, fewer classes to pay. Who, other than guys wanting to avoid heads ups would object? I know of at least one guy that put a stick in his car to stop heads ups he could not win. The shear number of SS classes has gotten way out of hand Not as much of a downside since winning class no longer has anything to do with qualifying. Evan has several good ideas.