We're Evolving!

[treessavoy]

Originally Posted by Dick Butler

Bob, If only there were rules and specs to Nostalgia so it werent all Dial In but I understand . It is hard to police and hard to justify the costs today...

Dick,

NSS rules are NOT dial in, all classes run off indexes, if you run under the index you're out, run to slow and get beat. The indexes are run at 1/2 second intervals and you build your car to match the index.

There are NO electronics allowed, foot brake only.

And ....it's fun!

JimR

[Dick Butler]

Originally Posted by treessavoy

Dick,

NSS rules are NOT dial in, all classes run off indexes, if you run under the index you're out, run to slow and get beat. The indexes are run at 1/2 second intervals and you build your car to match the index.

There are NO electronics allowed, foot brake only.

And ....it's fun!

JimR

Jim
Even worse. We ran that way off dial in set at NOON in heat and raced at 2:00 AM with 1000 better Air..Several Years. We considered it miserable.. Then air stations and dial every run was better, still Dial In racing.... If you run at 10.50 against another 10.50 are you heads up or no break out?
Isnt that like running a S/G car and a S/C or ST car on dial in?

[art leong]

Originally Posted by Billy Nees

Heck, just last night I grew a third arm out of my chest and my wheezie fell off! Now I should be able to get half again as much work done on my car and not have to spend nearly as much money on other things!
But seriously, Evan Smith posted an excellent reply on another thread about how Stock has been "evolving" through the years and the subject seems worth (to me) discussing.
It is obvious that NHRA has (through want or need) been scaleing back it's Tech Dept. and it's policing and interpretation of it's rules has become less and less soooooo what will Stock Eliminator eventually "evolve" into?
Please, no arguing and no personal agendas just your own personal thoughts on where we're headed.
I honestly do believe that we will wind up being a "9"tire, flat hood" catagory given all of the cutbacks in tech and the way the rules have become "liberalized" over the last 30 years. Kind of a "Make it look Stock and put a crate motor in it" Bracket eliminator. Or we will wind up being an eliminator with maybe a dozen approved combos (dare I say "crate motors?) that NHRA can police.
Just my thoughts and opinions. Put on your thinking caps boys!
Also, there are some very smart people on this forum and it seems to me that the same half a dozen people are the only ones posting. Now does that mean the others don't care, aren't as smart as I give them credit for being or are too smart to be posting on this forum?!?

Billy Billy. Your third arm is probably a combo of hair and your meds. And as far as vthe Wheezie goes, What is the air temperature there? (wait till it warms up a little). LOL LOL

Down here my season begins in one month and I've got to do some work on the car. So I don't have time for these What If!!!! Lets do That, stuff.

[Tony Curcio]

There are aspects of motorsports evolution that are beyond the control of the sanctioning bodies, but should not be ignored. For example:

1) Today's 20 year old tech school student is learning on DOHC four and six cylinder engines, with electronic engine management, dual stage injectors, direct port injection (coming soon), variable cam timing, and of course, turbo and superchargers.
Comp eliminator has already begun to embrace the newer designs. Dave Ring's altered has a Chevy Eco-Tec style 4 cyl, the Aragona's have been using DOHC Mopar/Mitsubishi type engines for a few years, and I hear Toyota engines will debut with at least one D-1 team in 2010. The days of the F/ED with a Pontiac block and a splayed valve Chevy head appear to be numbered.

2) The small block Chevy will go the way of the flathead Ford. Overhead valve V8's were in mass-produced cars by around 1949, and the last NHRA national event won by a flathead was 1963. Land speed racing still has a handful of diehard flathead racers, but they are the exception. The SBC will endure a bit longer thanks to bracket racing, but the writing is clearly on the wall.
Already the LS-1 is widely accepted for hot rods and other projects that don't dictate the type of engine to be used. Scarcity and expense will phase out the SBC more and more. The SBC was the most common- other brands will diminish sooner. Who races an authentic Hemi Cuda anymore? How many Ford 427 wedges use original heads? How many 427 wedges period? 428's? 413's?

3) Used cars with carburetors are no longer on the street, and they are becoming expensive. If I had not already had a 69 Camaro that was in the garage for decades, I certainly wouldn't have paid for a first generation Camaro body for a stocker project. A '93 Camaro or Mustang body can be bought for under $1000, maybe even with a rebuildable engine in it. Of course, ten years from now, 2003 models will be dirt cheap. Time marches on.


Adding all varieties of late model cars to the existing framework of rules would seem to be a tech-inspection nightmare. For now, S/SS has more participation than most other non-professional motorsports categories, so its short term survival is assured. But if you're serious about remaining viable as something other than a nostalgia series for more than another 5 years or so, it might pay to look at how another form of racing is doing it.

The SCCA has a category called Touring, which is very similar to Stock Elim. While far from perfect, they have decent participation, in spite of not offering any prize money (winner gets a new set of tires from Hoosier). The T-1 class has the modern supercars- Ferrari, Viper, Corvette. By its nature, road racing has to be heads up, so they use factoring by means of added weight for the super-light Ferrari, bigger brakes for others, or in the case of the C5 Corvette, aftermarket headers (the other cars must use factory exhaust manifolds).
The T-2 class successfully combines BMW's and Camaros with Saturn Vue (ie real-world hot rods). It goes down the line with T-3 to ordinary sedans from Honda, VW and Toyota..

They have the same arguments about factoring and fairness that NHRA has. Meaningful tech enforcement is just as challenging. It's just that they have found a way to include new and old, fast and slow, expensive and cheap, and yet there are fewer classes overall.

[Billy Nees]

Good post Tony. I think that as an eliminator it is probably getting to be time to maybe have history repeat itself and somehow "evolve" Stockers into SS and start with a clean sheet in Stock.
(Did I just say that?)
It would definitely involve some "juggling" though. Moving classes around to fit Stockers into SS would be quite a feat.

[Alan Roehrich]

Originally Posted by Billy Nees

Good post Tony. I think that as an eliminator it is probably getting to be time to maybe have history repeat itself and somehow "evolve" Stockers into SS and start with a clean sheet in Stock.
(Did I just say that?)
It would definitely involve some "juggling" though. Moving classes around to fit Stockers into SS would be quite a feat.

Billy,
"Evolving" the current Stock Eliminators cars into Super Stock not only is not really feasible, but it is something directly contrary to what NHRA wants to do. It would involved creating a ton of new classes in Super Stock (about the last thing NHRA would want) and recreating Stock (again, far more effort, time, and expense than NHRA would be willing to expend).

[Mike Carr]

Originally Posted by Billy Nees

Good post Tony. I think that as an eliminator it is probably getting to be time to maybe have history repeat itself and somehow "evolve" Stockers into SS and start with a clean sheet in Stock.
(Did I just say that?)
It would definitely involve some "juggling" though. Moving classes around to fit Stockers into SS would be quite a feat.

The easiest way to restore Stock to "the way it was" would be something I talked to a friend about about a year ago (and something I doubt NHRA/IHRA would be in favor of). Re-name the current Super Stock Eliminator as a new Modified Eliminator. Rename the current Stock Eliminator as the new Super Stock. Re-create Stock, along the lines of IHRA Pure Stock, as far as engine rules, and actually enforce them. Real teardowns, and more of them, enforce the rules, allow the tech men to do their job, and stiffer penalties for blatent cheating. I seriously doubt any of it will happen. Neither Association (NHRA/IHRA) can/will take the necesary steps to take care of Class Racing now, let alone take steps to do so in a more thorough way.

As for the original question, where are we going as an eliminator, who knows. We've obviously, over the past 20 or so years have been slowly degenerating away from the original intent of Stock, for better (safety, wheelie bars, fuel cells) or worse (engine rules, relacement parts, some so-called paper cars, etc). The Indexes may be a step in the right direction, to add more of the performance back into S/SS. The AHFS, in it's current state, is at best, a total mess and will never work. Despite some people's requests, running S/SS off the records, or off the Index CIC-style like Comp will be the DEATH of modern Class Racing, as was shown eleven years ago in Division 1. Yet, despite the seemingly doom-and-gloom scenarios, S/SS seems to be alive, well and thriving, as you can tell by the number of entrants this past season during uncertain economic times. Other than the current AHFS format, I'd like to see NHRA leave stuff alone for a year or two, instead of some major rule change(s) that seem to happen every year, almost none of which were for the better.

[Alan Roehrich]

Tony,
Actually, the Knight brothers still race a REAL R code Hemi 'Cuda in Stock in Division 3, Bowling Green is pretty much their home track. And the two fastest Chevrolet Stock Eliminator cars both still run original era cast iron heads.

The small block Chevy has already been out of production in cars for longer than the flat head Ford was when it won its last NHRA event, and the small block Chevy is just about as strong as it has ever been in the sportsman ranks. There were a lot more small block Chevy engines built, over a lot longer period of time than the flat head Ford. Further, the factory still supports the small block Chevy. And so does the aftermarket, in a manner far more massive and complete than they ever did for the flat head Ford.

Sure, DOHC 4 valve engines and EFI are common place now. But neither are new technology. EFI is at least 40 years old. And aircraft engines designed some 80 years ago were DOHC 4 valve engines with fuel injection. Not all new technology always moves down to grass roots racing. The complexity and expense of DOHC 4 valve stuff turns at least 5 times as many people OFF as it turns on.

It isn't that Stock needs a "tiered" system. Stock just needs to stick to the original intent that it was intended for purely production cars off the showroom floor and the "tuner" cars, "builder" cars, and "export" versions go straight to some sort of Super Stock class where they belong. There's a place for the production showroom Challengers, and even the production showroom DOHC 4 valve Mustangs in Stock. They belong in Stock. The "package" race cars do not belong in Stock.

The "package" cars are not the problem, they're a symptom of the real problem. The real problem is the massive disconnect between the people that control the sanctioning bodies an the people who are dues paying members of the sanctioning bodies.

[treessavoy]

Originally Posted by Alan Roehrich

Tony,
Actually, the Knight brothers still race a REAL R code Hemi 'Cuda in Stock in Division 3, Bowling Green is pretty much their home track. And the two fastest Chevrolet Stock Eliminator cars both still run original era cast iron heads.

The small block Chevy has already been out of production in cars for longer than the flat head Ford was when it won its last NHRA event, and the small block Chevy is just about as strong as it has ever been in the sportsman ranks. There were a lot more small block Chevy engines built, over a lot longer period of time than the flat head Ford. Further, the factory still supports the small block Chevy. And so does the aftermarket, in a manner far more massive and complete than they ever did for the flat head Ford.

Sure, DOHC 4 valve engines and EFI are common place now. But neither are new technology. EFI is at least 40 years old. And aircraft engines designed some 80 years ago were DOHC 4 valve engines with fuel injection. Not all new technology always moves down to grass roots racing. The complexity and expense of DOHC 4 valve stuff turns at least 5 times as many people OFF as it turns on.

It isn't that Stock needs a "tiered" system. Stock just needs to stick to the original intent that it was intended for purely production cars off the showroom floor and the "tuner" cars, "builder" cars, and "export" versions go straight to some sort of Super Stock class where they belong. There's a place for the production showroom Challengers, and even the production showroom DOHC 4 valve Mustangs in Stock. They belong in Stock. The "package" race cars do not belong in Stock.

The "package" cars are not the problem, they're a symptom of the real problem. The real problem is the massive disconnect between the people that control the sanctioning bodies an the people who are dues paying members of the sanctioning bodies.

I agree.

Here's the problem. The kids coming up today either have no automobile knowledge and don't care to or the first thing they add to their new car is a huge stereo. They are more interested in driving around town with a trash can muffler than actually racing the car.

But ,if you could generate the interest in racing then it would be best to have them run in a Pure Stock Front Wheel Drive eliminator with the only change being the exhaust cat back system. This might generate new blood into the sport.

The draw back is that now HRA inspectors will have twice as much work and in policing and the cost will probably be prohibitive to the sanctioning body.

Just grasping at straws,

JimR

[Lynn A McCarty]

Come on guys, you know NHRA is never going to budget for rule enforcement the way want it. So, quit waiting for someone else to do it and let's do it ourselves (Just like running heads up during practice at points races.) I suggest we consider putting more teeth into the protest/teardown rules, but NHRA must represent racer's money well.

*Racers know who and how they are cheating.
*Racers need to have their protest money well represented.
*Sanctioning body must not pick and choose. Make a standard policy and stick to it.
*Sanctioning body must represent racer's money well (or the program fails).
*Rules must be definite for protest consideration, that is, upon a protest, there must be a clear understanding of what is and what is not a violation of the rules.
*Protest fees must be raised in order to provide enough deterrent and enough funds for proper evaluations. Significant money paid to Fees paid to tech department for staffing, money for administrating, money for outside opinions, arbitration, confiscation.
*Dollar fines paid to protester and NHRA tech department (open book, not for profit) for cheaters to maintain the program.
*Did I say Sanctioning body must represent our money well?

Other thoughts/ideas invited. Put up or Shut up! (in a nice warm/fuzzy kind of way)

Lynn

PS. Racer must need our money well represented!