CJ OUT at Indy!!

[Pete Beau]

When a written quality assurance policy is not specified there is a huge gray area for interpretation. The end result can be good parts that are rejected or bad parts that are accepted. Sound familiar? This is why written quality procedures are developed and issued to all companies and/ or people that have to conform to them.

[buzzinhalfdozen]

OK easy everyone they didn't just decipher the dead sea scrolls, after talking directly with someone closely involved in this it seems to be nothing more than one hand of Ford not knowing what the other hand was doing. I'll leave it to someone else to fully explain but hey they could probably stack 2 head gaskets and go just as fast. Please try to wait till the full story comes out on this before labeling these guys, doubt they would bring something that was obviously illegal to a race with a 99% chance of tear down. Joe

[james schaechter]

Originally Posted by buzzinhalfdozen

OK easy everyone they didn't just decipher the dead sea scrolls, after talking directly with someone closely involved in this it seems to be nothing more than one hand of Ford not knowing what the other hand was doing. I'll leave it to someone else to fully explain but hey they could probably stack 2 head gaskets and go just as fast. Please try to wait till the full story comes out on this before labeling these guys, doubt they would bring something that was obviously illegal to a race with a 99% chance of tear down. Joe

I spoke with a couple of the CJ guys that actually know these pretty well. Ford submitted a production tolerance average instead of a minimum spec. I guess the guy that submitted the info was there and they were taking turns beating him LOL. I am sure the memo to correct this was already drafted. I also don't think the guys could have even reassembled the engines without some help. There are some tools that make the impossible possible. Maybe Ford will come out with a CJ teardown kit!

I don't see this piston dish spec or any other as any real issue. Ford will submit it and NHRA will accept it. These are really cool cars and they guys that I talked to Jimmy Ronzello and George Wright are nice guys and dedicated racers. I don't agree with the hp factor and class they are in, but I can't blame those guys for that.


I think the guy that got "jobbed" in teardown for stock was Tim Bishop. They couldn't read the entire number on his piston. He pulled a piston and rod. It weighed right, measured right and looked right. I would agree this would be something that should be reviewed, but that is what the big guy is there for at Indy right? I would have thought if a couple of senior tech guys said it was right, but they can't verify the # but it was clearly legal, the Head NHRA tech official would be able to make a call that would make sense. I guess he only flies out from California to eat the catered food and sit in the tower.

I didn't hang out in teardown, but I did talk to a couple of SS guys. One had a set of Manley rods that were not marked and was tossed and one he a chunk of epoxy that fell out and as luck would have it, that was the runner they checked!

[Big Angry Hillbilly]

Being a Ford mechanic, these DOHC supercharged motors are definately no fun to take apart, and likely something you are not going to have time to pull down between rounds.

You don't NEED special tools to time these, but it does make life a LOT easier.

Getting a head off a 4.6 SOHC in chassis is not a real fun task, I can't imagine a 32v motor in that chassis. Only 32v motors I've torn apart have either been in a Navigator, or on a stand.

[X-TECH MAN]

Originally Posted by Pete Beau

The first thing that must been done in any measurement system is calibrate it! For anyone in the barn today, check for calibration stickers on the measuring equipment being used. If there is none then the gage is suspect. However, that also means that all gages being used by anyone must be calibrated in order for everyone to be on a level playing field. As an example, I have been in some garages/ shops and the guys are using calipers that are decades old and look like they have been through hell; let alone been calibrated.

The second thing in a measurement system is Gage R&R (gage repeatability & reproducibility). Basically it is a method of determining the amount of variation that a measurement system has in relation to the specification/ tolerance of the feature being measured. The end result is given in the form of percentage of error in relation to the tolerance of the specification. What is the tolerance that NHRA assigns to combustion chamber or piston volumes? The specification is a minimum value; you can be bigger, not smaller. How much bigger or what is the high limit of the specification? From that point you can determine what the gage error can be.

Just some food for thought.

Pete is pretty much dead on with his comments. I worked in a Navy calibration lab for over 18 years up until I retired. There are tolerences involved in precision equipment and they NEED TO BE CHECKED at intervals. I always made sure my stuff was correct as I brought my own checking equipment with me to the races. I did NOT rely on IHRA's tools. How many have been bounced over the years for .001 of an inch ? A dial indicator tolerance is plus or minus .001 in its self. The moral of the story is you HAVE to allow some amount over or under depending what engine part and spec your dealing with for heat build up, "pilot error" (the tech guy), and not build these things to the "enth degree" or dead on. Its the responseability of the racer/engine builder to make certain the head is allowed enough "wiggle" room for C.C.s or the valve diameter is correct, enough deck height is allowed for wear and tear, rod streach (they do streach a small amount with duty cycles) or enough room is allowed for any other engine part. NHRA and IHRA always had problems with valve springs being at or under the correct pressure back when the stockers had to run the factory specs. Pete is also correct in that the plastic burettes are JUNK. Buy a glass one that is certified from someplace like Fisher Scientific or another precision tool supplier. I remember when I was cutting some heads for C.C..s (428 CJ) and had them all at 68.2 to 68.4 C.C.s for a good engine builder (Ford guy) here in Md. I gave them back and about a day later he screamed that I ruined them. Well he had used a plastic burette to check them and they showed up being a full c.c. short with his burette. I knew better because my burette was glass and I checked it at work when I was working for the Department of Defense (Navy). I proved it to him and his customer went on to win the Gatornationals stock eliminator that year in his Orange 428 CJ Mustang. It passed tech with flying colors. Moral of story....use certified tools and allow wiggle room. Its YOUR responsability.