Mike Cotten you are the MAN!

[Brian VP]

And after thinking about it and watching it again. The stage and pre-stage lights never even came back on when he rolled through with the REAR TIRES! There was definately a glitch in the system and it was not caused by something on the outside like a flash.

[M Brand 505B]

The same exact thing happened to me at the denver divisional in 2011 but there was no rerun though i showed them the video. Check it out.

http://m.youtube.com/#/watch?v=3A5BI...%3D3A5BIAz6W2w

[Racin Mason]

This exact same thing happened to me at the Winternationals 2 years ago, but with a very different decision from Mike Rice and company. Same left hand lane. The red light came on when the 2nd yellow came on just like this run. The only difference is when I saw the red light come on, I stayed put and never moved. When the red light came on BOTH the pre-stage and stage lights went out just like this run. When the tree reset BOTH the pre-stage and stage were lit proving the car didn't move.

I went up to the tower and argued this with Mike Rice and Rick Stewart in person. I brought with me witnesses who saw this happen and all confirmed the car didn't budge. I even brought the person who I raced with me (happened to be my father) and we all agreed to a re-run. Rice and Stewart said they've seen this before and called it a shallow stage red. They say the car rocks backwards out of the beam and turns on the red. End of story.

They would not allow a re-run even though both competitors agreed to it. They said there decision was final as this happened before and they NEVER allow re-runs in these situations.

After the video of the run was posted a few days later, I emailed Mike Rice showing the video that was posted on this forum. Here's the link to the video and the run is right at 19:00:
[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M9h_IGDhxxs"]2011 NHRA Winternationals Super Stock Round 1 - YouTube[/ame]

Here's his response:

It is too hard to see in the video. The shallow stage deal is very real, especially without the StageLoc program. The car doesn’t have to move, just the change in tire pressure when on the brake or two step can be enough to rock out of the beams. There is no doubt in my mind that this is what happened to you at Pomona. You may not physically see or feel car move, but the beams are so sensitive that it happens. You are not the first that it has happened too and certainly won’t be the last.

When the system red-lights, it locks our both the pre-stage and stage beams, which is why both go out. When system resets, it allows them to come back on.

Mike

The best part of that email is "You are not the first that it has happened too and certainly won’t be the last."

I am emailing Mike now asking why their decision was different in this situation than in an identical situation. I will let you all know his response.

P.S. Anyone else wonder why Jimmy's car leaves when the last bulb never came on? It's like he wasn't even looking at the bottom bulb. I wonder how you can legally get your car to delay enough to leave off the top bulb like that...

[Rod Greene]

I was wondering the same thing why does Defranks car leave when it does? Hmmmmm...

Mike I think the win was stolen from you.

[Andys dad]

Originally Posted by Rod Greene

I was wondering the same thing why does Defranks car leave when it does? Hmmmmm...

Mike I think the win was stolen from you.

I am a computer geek and wondered the same thing - I timed it with the computer and the car left when the bottom bulb should have lit - all I can say is very interesting - perhaps a reflex action on his part - but I would think you leave when you see it....

Good job Mike

Ron

[340Cuda]

Originally Posted by Andys dad

I am a computer geek and wondered the same thing - I timed it with the computer and the car left when the bottom bulb should have lit - all I can say is very interesting - perhaps a reflex action on his part - but I would think you leave when you see it...

Yes I would also say this is very interesting...

[sammy pizzolato]

yes i did see that jimmy's car left when the last yellow should have come on'

[Michael Beard]

Originally Posted by M Brand 505B

The same exact thing happened to me at the denver divisional in 2011 but there was no rerun though i showed them the video. Check it out.

http://m.youtube.com/#/watch?v=3A5BI...%3D3A5BIAz6W2w

If you step frame-by-frame, it appears that the red-light comes on before the pre-stage and stage even go out. Realistically, it must be happening simulataneously, and it's just the slow reaction of the incandescent stage bulb as they lose their glow when power is removed. Also, this car is up against the converter, and obviously not a "shallow stage red" from rocking back.

When the system red-lights, it locks our both the pre-stage and stage beams, which is why both go out. When system resets, it allows them to come back on.

I'm sorry, what? The red light should be a function of the stage light not being lit prior to the green light coming on. Why is the red light supposedly making anything happen with the stage beams? If they are being blocked by a tire, they should be on, period. If this is not the case, then they've eliminated a possible checksum for situations such as this.

Come to think of it, I've seen this happen at a bracket race in the east as well, no camera flashes involved. While this is going to be a crazy tough error to diagnose and repair due to its infrequency, we have to recognize that it *is* happening.

P.S. Anyone else wonder why Jimmy's car leaves when the last bulb never came on? It's like he wasn't even looking at the bottom bulb. I wonder how you can legally get your car to delay enough to leave off the top bulb like that...

No, not at all. I'd be more surprised if he didn't leave. We've had practice tree races where one lane had the bottom bulb burned out. I took that lane, and my reaction times did not change. Most people anticipate the 3rd bulb, whether they realize it or not. You can learn more about the how's and why's on my guest editorial on www.thisisbracketracing.com.

[billy leber]

@ Racin Mason ... I remember seeing your run and feeling you got Effed . Can't wait to hear the response as to why yours was not a re -run as well.

[Michael Beard]

After studying the three different videos presented here from different incidents, and the Div. Director comment, it appears that they have added some kind of lockout in the system so that once it thinks the car has left the starting line, it keeps the pre-stage and stage from lighting again. If you look at older videos, you can see the stage bulbs flicker when the rear tires roll through the beams, so presumably they have tried to eliminate this "problem" (possible distraction for the faster car?) by locking them out, as Rice was describing. I stepped through Mason's video like the previous one, and the same thing happened: The red-light comes on instantaneously with the power going off to the pre-stage and stage bulbs (and since they are incandescent, they appear to go off *after* the red-light)

It may be a coincidence, but in these particular videos, it appears that the red-light is activated at about the time that the slower opponent's rear wheels are crossing the starting line.

In troubleshooting, my gut feeling would be to look at something related to this pre-stage/stage lockout as being the culprit.