Heads-Up Runs

[JrRacer2033]

Originally Posted by Mike Carr

I posted this a few weeks ago, to another person who thought lifting early was "not racing".

"Flat out racing is great, but sometimes you have to dump to protect. I'll use the following example, Jim. Say early in the year, you and I have a heads-up run in, say, A/SA. You have a fairly common car (I'll use a '64 Fury Max Wedge as an example). I have a car that is pretty rare (say a '64 or '65 Nascar single 4 Hemi). You and I run Class somewhere early in the year. We both run flat out, both running 10.0's., and you get the win. You have plenty of other cars in your Class to bring the average for your combination down. I don't So, for running flat out, I get hit with HP, you don't, and now I'm further behind. Which can hurt later in the year, especially when it comes time for Indy, trying to win Class or even qualifying. It's this scenario, why racers, when at 1000' they realize they aren't going to win, will dump to protect their HP. It's not just Stock and S/S. David Rampy has done the same thing in Comp with his A/EA Bantam over the years. If he knows he won't get there (or even if he think he will but knows he'll kill the Index if he does), he'll dump, save the Index, to give himself a better chance down the road at winning. After 70+ National Event wins, I'd say Rampy's idea is a pretty smart one."

You WANT the power to go fast and/or to win a heads-up, but also have to be smart about how/when to USE it.

So my next question then, when would you people classify an acceptable time to run it flat out? Indy Class and thats it?

[treessavoy]

Originally Posted by JrRacer2033

So my next question then, when would you people classify an acceptable time to run it flat out? Indy Class and thats it?

Once again you missed the point because of the current mindset.

You run flat out EVERY time you race, that's drag racing!

JimR

[Mike Carr]

Originally Posted by JrRacer2033

So my next question then, when would you people classify an acceptable time to run it flat out? Indy Class and thats it?

JIm is right, mostly. Every run (heads-up runs, anyway) should be flat out, to me. But, if I'm in a heads-up with someone, and know that my car can run -1.15 (or more) and am behind with no chance to catch my opponent, I, and most anyone, is going to lift, try and save the HP factor for my combo, and hope my opponent does run fast enough to get hit. I, and 90+% of the other racers out there, are NOT going to take a HP hit AND lose the race. It's like losing twice in one race.

[Mike Carr]

I should add, to further answer your question, that most Class racers are not flat-out in Eliminations. The car is tuned back, in "bracket mode", to be more consistant. The only time a car is tuned up to go fast is Class Eliminations (any race, but Indy especially), heads-up runs in the Eliminator, Record Runs, or if they want to qualify near the top to get a favorable spot on the ladder. A racer once wrote that their car would become "evil" at time when set up on "kill" (huge wheelies, etc), so most tune them back for the shoe-polish part of the Eliminator. Example, having an A/SA that would go 10.40's in "bracket mode", and run 10.0's in all-out mode. The car would tend to repeat more consistantly running 10.40's, hence that reason.

[JrRacer2033]

Thank you Mike for the clarification! I've got one situation I would like to hear your thoughts on. So lets say you have someone covered (or believe to have someone covered), you play it safe on the tree and get "treed" by .05, would you risk running -1.15 knowing you would receive HP to get back around them to get the round win or just dump and race another weekend?

[treessavoy]

Originally Posted by Mike Carr

JIm is right, mostly. Every run (heads-up runs, anyway) should be flat out, to me. But, if I'm in a heads-up with someone, and know that my car can run -1.15 (or more) and am behind with no chance to catch my opponent, I, and most anyone, is going to lift, try and save the HP factor for my combo, and hope my opponent does run fast enough to get hit. I, and 90+% of the other racers out there, are NOT going to take a HP hit AND lose the race. It's like losing twice in one race.

Mike,

In that instance you would be right, there is no sense in shooting yourself in the foot on a losing cause.

JimR

[CrateCamaro]

Treesavoy,

Its guys like you that run it out the door all the time when its not nessisary and don't think about what NHRA/IHRA will do to the HP rating. Its guys like you that made the 300hp combo in super stock impossible to run anymore. Thank god guys are getting smart and are running 400 combo's and low HP 350 combo's because the 300hp combo would be re reated to 400hp by now. Pretty imbarrasing getting spanked in class by a 305 or a low hp 350. The 400 is the worst of them all. They are 410 inches by the time they are .070 over and have almost 12.0:1 compression because someone who does the blueprinting for NHRA doesnt know the proper chamber size of a 400 chevy.

[SS Engine Guy]

Originally Posted by CrateCamaro

Treesavoy,

Its guys like you that made the 300hp combo in super stock impossible to run anymore.

Most engine builders including myself can still make the 350/200/322 a pretty respectable piece. It just takes a little more work than it did in the past. I would much rather qualify 1.1 under with the 350/300/322 knowing that it is somewhat closer to the proper factor than run the soft stuff. Also the 400 used to be rated (if my memory is correct) 25 hp. less. And like you said is still a very good piece of equipment. .

[CrateCamaro]

SSENGINEGUY

I totally agree with you that you can make the 300hp combo work. But really at the end of the day it don't matter what casting number head you have...041/441/624...ect they are all the same when they get back from being transformed into an epoxy masterpiece. Ports are the same, chambers are close to being the same (041 a tad smaller) so really the engine is basically the same. Now days a good 255 will run circles around a 300. Ya they might make a little less torque because they are down 1 point in compress (big deal) but the engines are exactly the same but rated less. And the 400...a good one has to make 650hp and its rated less than a 300/327hp combo that will make 625hp. Ya im sure that guys are making more hp now but they are probably sacrificing tork for hp numbers and they slow down like crazy in the heat of the summer. Just my 2 cents..

[SS Engine Guy]

Originally Posted by CrateCamaro

Ports are the same, chambers are close to being the same (041 a tad smaller) so really the engine is basically the same.

Exactly! And that is the reason they should be rated very close, if not the same. That is one of the reasons for the dumping and worrying about saving hp. Trying to save an already too low hp rating. Not just these particular 350 combos but many others like the 400 which is still a very competitive piece after adding quite a few hp. and dropping a class or two. There are quite a few other combos out there that could add 25 hp too and they would still run over 1.1 under. When these are brought into line (where they should have been in the first place) the "dash to hit the brakes" will come to an end. Until then: May the best bunny hop.