65-85 under.

[B Parker]

Originally Posted by Billy Nees

Hey Ponko, let 'em "ruin" it! There's a few other combos out there that need to be "ruined" too.
They spend THEIR money and stretch the rules and do it to themselves. It has become THEIR game and they want to complain about the consequences. They've kinda become the "Wokers" of S/SS. Racers running a mere handful of combos trying to dictate policy to all of the other Racers running any one of a thousand other combos.

Billy really let them ruin their combo. It's their fault. What the he## good will that do. Not all of us race a combo that you don't have to worry about heads up runs in the eliminator. Why don't they drop the soft as he## index's by 4 tenths so you can't take a junk yard car and run under the index. It will also help put an end to the sandbagging and have more cars actually run their combo's to their potential. Running under the index is not a God given right. It took my brother and me 2 years before we were able to run the index. And for the few that are just starting out and building a new car. If your going to give up if you don't run under the index your first time out maybe Stock is not the Class for you. Or do what most of the new Stock racers are doing buy a newer $100,000 car or buy a proven older one that someone has spent the time and money on. And if you think there are only a few combo's that stretch the rules you need to look at Indy last year. If you can run 9 tenths under in that crap air you either have a real soft HP or you have built your car to pass what we now have for tear downs. We both know the deal with tec. So as long as you have built your car to pass today's tec I have no problem with the car. The tec we grew up with in the 60's, 70's ,80's are gone. Not the horse but the heard of horses left that barn a long time ago. I know lets go back to the 70's so almost everyone that has a Stocker that is built to pass today's tec should have to junk their car to make you and a very few happy. Go on flame away but you know I'm right . Or yah Merry Christmas to you BP

[B Parker]

Billy aren't you the one that's been on here for years saying that the 396/375 combo is built with all aftermarket parts. With all the parts you talk about there so good you don't have to do anywhere near the amount of work on them that you need to do with the stock factory parts to get them to run that fast. BP

[Billy Nees]

It's about time that you woke up Barry! Probably dreaming about what NHRA is going to give you next.
Merry Christmas and a Happy and Healthy New Year! See you in the spring!

[Alan Roehrich]

Originally Posted by Billy Nees

It's about time that you woke up Barry! Probably dreaming about what NHRA is going to give you next.
Merry Christmas and a Happy and Healthy New Year! See you in the spring!

Billy,
Just FYI, the unmodified 359 intake is worth, at best, 0.07 over a mediocre 163. We replaced a set of McDowell 291 cast iron heads with a set of Heintz 401 heads, both truly LEGAL, and the car slowed down about 0.08, and changing camshafts, etc, didn't help, the 10HP penalty on our car wasn't worth it. The 750 Quick Fuel is legal for everyone that uses a 750 Holley vacuum secondary carburetor. Now, our stuff was never "cheated up", it was always all dead legal. We didn't get any magic one off cams, either, still the original 0.520" lift since the engines were developed in 1965.



And last I looked, 2-3 years ago, the 396/375 aluminum head 69 Camaro was carrying at least 37HP above the factory rating for the "gifts", and has, for quite some time.



As far as it goes, it happens that it's a great combination, always has been. And the car itself is possibly the most popular pony car ever built, so, yeah, it has a massive amount of aftermarket support, including clone bodies.


Honestly, I'm cool with the dime rockets, and obscure cars, and hey, if you want to campaign a FWD that no one makes parts for, that's cool, too.


I'm just not seeing where those choices require the constant complaining about the 69 Camaro, which you never have to race heads up. Hell, I'm not even a huge fan of the 69 Camaro, my partner owns the car and he's the fan of them.


There are several reasons the car is parked, this crap is probably part of it. We're considering getting it out to play with it locally. Maybe. I love Stock, whining and all.

[Billy Nees]

Alan, I respect your opinion more that most. I'm not complaining about the 396/375 combo. I'm just using it in an analogy to try and get certain Racers to understand that the Eliminator doesn't end at G/SA. There are a number of Racers on here whose only self-serving mission is to lower the indexes 3/4/5 (what the h&!!, lower them a second!) so that they don't screw up their own personal agenda! There are probably a dozen other combos that I could plug in to my previous post that will serve the same purpose. I really don't care much which way the AHFS goes. I'm AM however concerned when certain people start wanting to lower the indexes just for their own benefit.

[Alan Roehrich]

Originally Posted by Billy Nees

Alan, I respect your opinion more that most. I'm not complaining about the 396/375 combo. I'm just using it in an analogy to try and get certain Racers to understand that the Eliminator doesn't end at G/SA. There are a number of Racers on here whose only self-serving mission is to lower the indexes 3/4/5 (what the h&!!, lower them a second!) so that they don't screw up their own personal agenda! There are probably a dozen other combos that I could plug in to my previous post that will serve the same purpose. I really don't care much which way the AHFS goes. I'm AM however concerned when certain people start wanting to lower the indexes just for their own benefit.

The indexes, honestly, haven't kept up with technology. Nor, unfortunately, have they kept up with what NHRA has allowed to pass tech in Stock. NHRA made those choices. A lot of them I certainly don't agree with myself.



Sadly, a lot of combinations haven't, whether or not they can.


I can see where people want the indexes lowered, and why. Even though lowering the indexes would make my life harder, and returning to Stock more questionable. And I'd dearly love to return. having a life threatening disease will make you want to live, and do things. It changes your perspective. Drastically. We won class a few times. We came close to a national event win a couple of times. And I left Indy with my tail between my legs. I have things I'd like to do before I take a dirt nap, things I've come close to.



Racing Stock is a series of choices. NHRA makes a lot of them for you. But you make a lot for yourself. If you choose to race Stock, you chose to race under the rules as they stand.


You choose your car (unless you have a partner who owns it). Now, it's up to you how you choose it, and what factors you considered. Is it something you had? Is it something you got cheap? Did you choose it because you like it? Did you choose it because you have an emotional attachment? But the factors you take into consideration when you choose, are your choice.



If you didn't choose it because it's a competitive combination, and it has support from the aftermarket, then you made the choice, and you don't really have a ton of room to complain. If you chose to try to race Stock on a shoestring budget, you're not going to be very fast, unless you're really good, not many of us are that good. Your choice. If you're not going to tear your stuff down and update, upgrade, test, etc, that's your choice, you chose not to be competitive. It takes the willingness to test, tune, and do R&D to be competitive. If there are cores available, someone will make cams for you. The piston companies will make pistons, and Total Seal makes lot of rings. There are valve companies that will make you valves. If you chose a combination where your stuff has to be "one off", the key phrase is "you chose a combination".


Am I a fan of what NHRA is letting through tech now? Hell NO! I'd love to see NHRA turn Wesley and Travis loose, and let them deal with it. Am I a fan of superseded parts? Not really, but I do see a reason in some cases. I just bought another cast iron original head, to have a second pair of original cast iron heads. I bought a set back that I sold. I don't like the cost to be competitive. I'm not running my own, and we've parked the orange Camaro, as much due to cost as anything. We know what it costs to compete at the level we want to. We don't feel like we can spend that money right now. We're not crying because others can. We're just parked.


As my late friend and fellow racer, Ronnie Duke, was fond of saying, "all drag racing takes is time and money. All your time, and all your money." Being competitive is a choice, if you're going to be competitive, you're going to devote a lot of your life, time and treasure. In Stock and Super Stock especially. And, as Dirty Harry Callahan wisely said, "A man's got to know his limitations".

[Alan Roehrich]

I do understand that there are lower classes, below G, and below where I like to run. Race cars should go pretty fast, at least for me, or they're just not really fun. If it won't run the quarter at least as well as my Harley Pro street Breakout, it just doesn't do it for me. I realize that ain't where everyone is in the sport. Some people really enjoy 13, 14, 15, and 16 second cars. That's their choice. And hey, maybe their indexes don't need adjustment, or much adjustment.



Like Barry Parker said, as much as lot of us older guys would love to see a return, at least partially, to the tech we saw in the twentieth century, those days are gone. Forever. I have to live with the fact that, as Jimmy Bridges says to my wife, "me and your husband, we's cavemen, we from back in history." Doesn't mean I don't want NHRA to tighten tech up. Just means I'm old enough to know not to hold my breath waiting on it.


Relax and make peace with it. It might even make it easier to convince yourself to go racing. We ain't gonna live forever.

[Glenn Briglio]

Originally Posted by Alan Roehrich

The indexes, honestly, haven't kept up with technology. Nor, unfortunately, have they kept up with what NHRA has allowed to pass tech in Stock. NHRA made those choices. A lot of them I certainly don't agree with myself.



Sadly, a lot of combinations haven't, whether or not they can.


I can see where people want the indexes lowered, and why. Even though lowering the indexes would make my life harder, and returning to Stock more questionable. And I'd dearly love to return. having a life threatening disease will make you want to live, and do things. It changes your perspective. Drastically. We won class a few times. We came close to a national event win a couple of times. And I left Indy with my tail between my legs. I have things I'd like to do before I take a dirt nap, things I've come close to.



Racing Stock is a series of choices. NHRA makes a lot of them for you. But you make a lot for yourself. If you choose to race Stock, you chose to race under the rules as they stand.


You choose your car (unless you have a partner who owns it). Now, it's up to you how you choose it, and what factors you considered. Is it something you had? Is it something you got cheap? Did you choose it because you like it? Did you choose it because you have an emotional attachment? But the factors you take into consideration when you choose, are your choice.



If you didn't choose it because it's a competitive combination, and it has support from the aftermarket, then you made the choice, and you don't really have a ton of room to complain. If you chose to try to race Stock on a shoestring budget, you're not going to be very fast, unless you're really good, not many of us are that good. Your choice. If you're not going to tear your stuff down and update, upgrade, test, etc, that's your choice, you chose not to be competitive. It takes the willingness to test, tune, and do R&D to be competitive. If there are cores available, someone will make cams for you. The piston companies will make pistons, and Total Seal makes lot of rings. There are valve companies that will make you valves. If you chose a combination where your stuff has to be "one off", the key phrase is "you chose a combination".


Am I a fan of what NHRA is letting through tech now? Hell NO! I'd love to see NHRA turn Wesley and Travis loose, and let them deal with it. Am I a fan of superseded parts? Not really, but I do see a reason in some cases. I just bought another cast iron original head, to have a second pair of original cast iron heads. I bought a set back that I sold. I don't like the cost to be competitive. I'm not running my own, and we've parked the orange Camaro, as much due to cost as anything. We know what it costs to compete at the level we want to. We don't feel like we can spend that money right now. We're not crying because others can. We're just parked.


As my late friend and fellow racer, Ronnie Duke, was fond of saying, "all drag racing takes is time and money. All your time, and all your money." Being competitive is a choice, if you're going to be competitive, you're going to devote a lot of your life, time and treasure. In Stock and Super Stock especially. And, as Dirty Harry Callahan wisely said, "A man's got to know his limitations".

Billy I couldn't have said it any better. You choose what you choose and know the rules and tech and have consequences for what you do or don't do.

[Billy Nees]

Originally Posted by B Parker

Billy really let them ruin their combo. It's their fault. What the he## good will that do. Not all of us race a combo that you don't have to worry about heads up runs in the eliminator. BP

Barry, let's say that Santa (NHRA) gives you and all of YOUR little friends (396/375 guys) a "special" present for Christmas. Let's say for the sake of this discussion,a pistol. While all of the rest of us get nothing but the usual socks and underwear. Let's say that you and your little friends are outside "playing" with your "special" presents and a couple of you manage to shoot yourselves in the foot. Is that Santa's fault? Are the rest of us at fault? Should the rest of the good little boys and girls (the rest of us in the Eliminator, you know the ones who got s#!t) be punished for your indiscretions? No, we shouldn't. YOU and your friends (the 396/375 guys) are at fault for shooting yourselves in the foot.
OBTW, YOU choose to run in a class where you have to be concerned about heads-up runs. You can change that.

Let me know if I have to explain this analogy to you so that you'll understand it.

[Glenn Briglio]

Originally Posted by Billy Nees

Barry, let's say that Santa (NHRA) gives you and all of YOUR little friends (396/375 guys) a "special" present for Christmas. Let's say for the sake of this discussion,a pistol. While all of the rest of us get nothing but the usual socks and underwear. Let's say that you and your little friends are outside "playing" with your "special" presents and a couple of you manage to shoot yourselves in the foot. Is that Santa's fault? Are the rest of us at fault? Should the rest of the good little boys and girls (the rest of us in the Eliminator, you know the ones who got s#!t) be punished for your indiscretions? No, we shouldn't. YOU and your friends (the 396/375 guys) are at fault for shooting yourselves in the foot.
OBTW, YOU choose to run in a class where you have to be concerned about heads-up runs. You can change that.

Let me know if I have to explain this analogy to you so that you'll understand it.

I think your getting soft Billy.............tell us what you really think.