Access to AMA Shipping Weights?

[Frank Castros]

Would it surprise anyone here that in their "spare time" members like Dwight, Billy and Mark are doing the homework to bring to light all of the mistakes, typos or otherwise in the guide. I'm sure there are more than a few.

[Mark Yacavone]

Originally Posted by Frank Castros

Would it surprise anyone here that in their "spare time" members like Dwight, Billy and Mark are doing the homework to bring to light all of the mistakes, typos or otherwise in the guide. I'm sure there are more than a few.

Not me, Frank
I don't care what they do now.
I do hate to see anyone get hurt by this latest play..or is it a ploy, to get rid of some more of those pesky S/SS cars?

[Jack McCarthy]

Well my 62 year old car has lost 32# 😏>> and therefore is no longer allowed to compete in the class it has held the record in 27 of the last 40 years 😡😡 guys after the 302 ffffird dicking and now this it’s gonna be hard to keep supporting this technical agenda

Captain
QSA

[SSDA Hemi]

1971 Hemi Cuda is 159 lbs lighter than a '70!! I guess the 4 headlights and gills took mucho weight off!!

The good news is my '70 SS/DA Cuda can now run in SS/FA! 4035 pounds!!

Who's writing this Sh!t!! Did they double check their math?? Maybe its April 1st??!!!

LMAO!!

[Frank Castros]

Mark,
You have a Private Message.

[SS/GSI]

I formally requested NHRA to look into the 1993-2002 Firebird Shipping Weight last winter. This shipping weight fiasco was created from the "body in white" program Pontiac had in the 90's and also while they were a major sponsor of NHRA.

I first asked for the 1998 Firebird to be reviewed, provided all MVMA Federal documentation, contact names and all sources to NHRA. I informed NHRA that once the '98 was reviewed, I would then be seeking reviews of all the 1993-2002 Firebird Shipping Weights.

NOTE: The reviewing of the entire MVMA shipping weights for the stock classification guide across all manufacturers was the sole decision of NHRA. NOT MINE

For decades everyone has known, mentioned and complained about the obviously doctored/distorted/favorable Shipping Weights in the guide, as they pertain to the 1993-2002 Firebirds. Between those years, the Firebirds are anywhere from 150-300#'s lighter than an identical Chevrolet Camaro, depending on the model, thus allowing them to run classes their "sister" car could not!

When NHRA and I began our correspondence, I believe there was skepticism from some people that the Stock Classification Guide could be this "off"; however once I began sending them the MVMA Documents, they became more receptive and understanding of my frustration with the guide.

In NHRA's defense, a majority of MVMA "sheets" over all the years were given to them by the performance departments from most manufacturers and obviously those manufacturers probably wanted their cars in favorable classes and or in the "faster" classes, therefore the discrepancy in many shipping weights. This information also wasn't available via the internet back then and was not disclosed publicly, due to the Information Act until lately. You have to remember that technology, computing and the transferring of information has come leaps and bounds over the last two decades.

I was also informed that NHRA was going to first roll out a statement mid January this year, probably on NHRA Racer.com, and it would detail that the shipping weights were being reviewed and updated for the entire guide, where documentation was available to do so. The new weights would only take affect January 1, 2023 and that once posted that all competitors would have a protest period of sorts(90-120days) to seek more clarification, explanations and/or contest the changes via discovery of new information, they themselves could provide to NHRA...Obviously as we all now know, that is not at all how it unraveled!!!

I do not apologize for requesting NHRA to look into my request. If you were affected, perhaps you should do some research and ensure that NHRA has made the right calculations...as Mr. Hill mentioned, people make mistakes. If you received a favorable shipping weight, I would also suggest making sure it is legit, seeing as your new and/or ex class competitors will want to make sure yours is correct as well.


NOW, HERE IS MY HUGE F@#KING PROBLEM!!!


Of all the cars that the shipping weights were changed on, and all the competitors which were affected...can you guess which one(s) were NOT???

The ONLY Shipping Weight untouched in this whole f#$king fiasco was the ONE car I asked to review in the 1st place!!! The 1998 Pontiac Firebird LT1 c/w Ram Air Hood(3050#/3011# SW). Also the 1995-1997 Firebird FireHawk LT1 c/w Ram Air Hood.


When I asked NHRA why they would not touch this car that;

A. Never Existed(1998 LT1)

B. Manufacturer No Longer Exists

C. A hood is making an almost 300# difference in SW

They responded that its a "paper" car, that their has been a 20+ year precedence for its shipping weight and they would not want a lawsuit to form over implementing a new and more realistic shipping weight on it!!! So what about the precedence for the 30+, 40+ and 50+ year old combos???

But then why did the 1995-1997 Firebird Firehawk remain 3050#'s...I have those MVMA Documents Directly from the Pontiac/GM Archives and that car weighs North of 3250#'s for all 3 years in question?!?!

I also gave NHRA the MVMA documents as it pertains to the LT1 vs LS1 engine weight. The LT1 weighs 88#'s MORE THAN the LS1(steel block LT1 vs aluminum block LS1 +++). Therefore it would only make sense for the LT1 ALLOWED ENGINE Combination in a 1998 Firebirds to run 88#'s heavier shipping weights than the LS1's, NO???!!!


So, NHRA changes the entire Stock Classification Guide but leaves out the car requested for review...sounds about right!!!

So, if you are a 1993 to 2002 F body competitor, and you are OK with one make, model, platform car getting a 300# +/- advantage on you, then I guess I will have to be OK with it...IF you are OK with adding 300-400#'s to your ride while fully well knowing that there are documents and simple mathematics out their to make the Firebirds, detailed above, not have to do it as well, because of some unknown bias and/or legal threat, than I guess I will have to be OK with it too.

Don't bother or waste your $$$ to threaten to sue NHRA over all of this. All they will do is get rid of all shipping weights in STK & SS, like they have in GT/Modified and then its case closed.

...or maybe that is what NHRA hope comes of all of this??? One less thing to do!



SIDE NOTE: The 2015 Camaro 376ci(which runs A, B and C/SA)MVMA Shipping Weights is 3946#'s NOT 3320#'s!!!

[Doug Hoven]

Not sure if this story is 100% true, but I was told that in 1998, GM racing had not fully developed the ls1 as part of their program. Pontiac racing opted to stick with the lt1 for the 1998 model year for their race cars. They never made any body in white “race only” Camaros, so they, along with all of the street trim cars, came with ls1 engines.

[KRatcliff]

Originally Posted by SS/GSI

So, if you are a 1993 to 2002 F body competitor, and you are OK with one make, model, platform car getting a 300# +/- advantage on you, then I guess I will have to be OK with it...IF you are OK with adding 300-400#'s to your ride while fully well knowing that there are documents and simple mathematics out their to make the Firebirds, detailed above, not have to do it as well, because of some unknown bias and/or legal threat, than I guess I will have to be OK with it too.

Short answer to your question above is yes because it doesn't give that combo any performance advantage over my combo. The weight classification will only affect the natural class and what other two classes they can run. The HP factor stays the same.

My combo was affected by the change, but I am still able to run the same class as before. I just cannot go any higher or quicker classes at this time.

[GUMP]

Originally Posted by SS/GSI

SIDE NOTE: The 2015 Camaro 376ci(which runs A, B and C/SA)MVMA Shipping Weights is 3946#'s NOT 3320#'s!!!

This argument goes back to 2009 when I purchased one of the very first BIW Camaros. There was some heated discussion about the shipping weight. The gentleman at Chevrolet would not listen and submitted the 2010 Camaro at around 3,800 lbs. without driver.

At that time, nobody had really done anything with one of these cars. Since I knew that Chevrolet wanted to build the COPO, I tried to get them to work with me to come up with an NHRA accepted rear suspension. My emails went unanswered.

In 2011 I purchased a zero option 1 SS Camaro. It weighed around 3600 lbs. minus driver. At the PRI Show I crawled under the COPO and measured the rear suspension. I then went to Bruce at NHRA and worked with him to make it legal for the 2010 Camaro. I went home and built it. All the time sharing with Bruce.

Before I got the car finished the whole COPO thing happened...

In 2015 I ordered two new 2016 cars. I decided to park the 2012 because of it's unique history. That left the 2014. I reached out to Chevrolet about putting all the Camaros in the guide. They settled on the 2015.

With all of the knowledge gained in those years it was obvious that a 2015 Camaro built within the current rules for Stock Eliminator would weigh around 2,800 lbs without driver. That's 1,100 lbs. from what you want and 800 lbs. from the 2012 car that I owned!! The decision was made to keep the ballast to no more than 500 lbs.

That is the way the 2015 Camaro got to that weight.

If the NHRA wants new cars in the Class guide, they have to make a weight concession for all of the stuff that can legally be removed.

OK, that's my version of history. One day I'll share my story on the LS3 engine specs......

[Billy Nees]

Originally Posted by Frank Castros

Would it surprise anyone here that in their "spare time" members like Dwight, Billy and Mark are doing the homework to bring to light all of the mistakes, typos or otherwise in the guide. I'm sure there are more than a few.

Nope, I'm good. All of my odd-ball, one off, POS stuff is OK.
I got kicked in the teeth a couple of months ago when they (NHRA) decided to make the Cavalier a 1 class car.