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#1 |
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1969 now published. Thank you both for your help.
https://skunkwerkssuperstock.wordpress.com/1969-2/ |
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#2 | |
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![]() If I read it right, you said a Ben Wolf '69 GTO won the B/SA class at a race. I assume you just made that up & never actually saw in print what he was driving. Also, if I read the right thing, it says that both winner & RU in B/SA were DQ'd. I'll read it again. I think it was @ Indy '69, right ? " B/SA Ben Wolf 69 Pontiac GTO Ram Air IV 400cui/370hp 4V " Don't recall seeing any old pics of a '69 GTO running in that high a class. I just looked thru my files of '69 GTO pics. I don't even see one that ran C/SA, much less B/SA. Most were either D or E. I assume that back then, the RA3 ran E & the RA4 ran D. In the Spring Nats class winners lists, it shows a Ben Wolf B/SA '61 Pontiac, which ran a 12.20. So, were BOTH the '69 GTO AND the '61 Pontiac running B/SA, in '69 ? ![]() Maybe, it was a misprint & the car was actually the Wolf & McClelland '62 Pontiac. I have pics of it with D/SA & C/SA on the window. Maybe for '69, certain 421SD models could run B/SA ? ![]() Might have been a lighter RA2 Bird. That sounds likely. Since the RA4 was factory rated lower in a Bird than the RA4 in a Goat, AND since the '69 Bird is lighter than the Goat, a RA4 Bird also sounds very likely. Pic 4 shows Phil Monteith's '69 RA4 Bird. He bought it new, & it ran B/SA. I vote for a Bird, NOT a Goat. "...Either way it seems that B/SA=8.50 Mystery Ben Wolf car of Spring 69 was either a: 69 GTO RA4 69 Bird RA4 68 Bird RA2 Nothing else seems to fit up that high..." I just used an online calculator. Th RA4 engine would have had to have been factored up to at least 389hp in order to get the 3500lb '69 GTO into B-Stock. Then it would have been real heavy for the class. I just noticed that the hp factor has been only 365hp for nearly 20 years. That's 1hp lower than the RA3 engine. But, I suppose the RA4 heads are just too rare & expensive for most, as well as a clean '69 GTO body. The Indy class winners list shows that Jack Briner won H/SA. Under the caption of the class final pic, you said the other car won. So, was the big Pontiac DQ'd ? ![]() " Ed Merkle’s H/SA winning Fairlane convertible. (1062) " The more I read, the more confused I am. ![]() The list which appears to have been made up, for the '69 Nats(I assume that's Indy), don't jive with the posted list which I assume was published in the ND. So, do you have info telling who was awarded the class wins, after the DQ's were noted, or ? " 69 NATIONALS Top Stock Class Winners " "...D/SA – B Bunker – Pontiac GTO – 12.45 @ 110.97..." Anyhow, the 1st list shows that a GTO won the D/SA class, with B Bunker driving. But, the official looking list shows that Ray McClelland won D/SA. So, if both these lists are from the '69 Nats @ Indy, which list is correct ? ![]() Can't copy & paste the ND list, but it clearly says it's a list from the '69 NHRA Nationals, & it clearly shows that Ray McClelland won D/SA. So, who really won the class @ Indy '69 ? ![]() Trying to go back thru those lists & get it all straight. On second look, that part about the B/SA '69 GTO was right at the bottom of the Spring Nats list, with very little space between it & the heading for the Indy info. But, that don't change the fact that I don't think a '69 GTO won B/SA, at any '69 nat event. Hey, I could be wrong. It HAS happened. ![]() Last edited by oldskool; 10-14-2021 at 11:47 PM. |
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#3 | |
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A couple things I caught: FACTORING: The 428/335hp-CJ R-code RamAir was factored to 360hp The 428/335hp-CJ Q-code NonRamAir was factored to 340hp I'm not sure on the AMX factoring, I had 400hp, not sure if 420hp fits the class or not. Curious where you found that? WINTER: You have Harvey's SS?/I car at 340hp, which is the correct factor, but most places you list the factory rated hp, not NHRA factored. SPRING: Re SS/Eliminator SS/GA Poole, there were NO 428-2x4v Cobra Jets. All single 4v. The SS/GA Cobra Jets were R-code ram air factored at 360hp. The B/SA=8.00 Ben Wolf car: Bottom line is I dont know WHAT that car was. No 68-69 Pontiac fits B/SA=8.00 class unless the engine was factored way above its factory rating. The only factoring I've heard on the 400 Pontiacs is that: * ALMOST always, the FIrebirds were refactored to the GTO rating * The RA4 was factored to 380hp, at least in 1970-71. I've always assumed that was true for 1969 as well. * The RA2 had to be factored to about 375hp in 1970-71 for eg the Truman Fields car to run where it did, D/S=8.50 class in 1971. Is it POSSIBLE that the RA4 was factored to at least 395hp, maybe 410-425hp, to allow the FIrebird or GTO to fit the Ben Wolf B/SA=8.00 win? Sure, but I have no direct evidence this happened. That nmeant the RA4 got factored DOWN to 380hp in 1970, and down-factoring was rare but not unheard of. So, we just dont know. A 69 Firebird has to be factored to at least 395hp to fit B/SA=8.00. A 69 GTO has to be factored to at least 415hp to fit B/SA=8.00. Maybe the Ben Wolf car wasnt even a Pontiac? Do we know? The F/SA=10.00 Dick Simon car, again I still dont know WHAT it was. His Fairlane ragtop doesnt fit that class with any engine. Coulda been a Fairlane but not the ragtop. INDY: I like seeing that big Pontiac win with the 421-6v under there. Not a usual combo you see winning at a National event. The picture of the Roush 69 Mustang Ragtop 1511 SS/HA=9.50 is at the 71 Nationals, not the 69 Nationals. In 1969, SS/HA=9.00 class and the ragtop was too heavy for that class. Allie would have run a 69 Fastback or Coupe in 1969=SS/HA=9.00 class, not sure which one either fits. They used to play with the class letters almost every year back then, super confusing. FOMOCO: The big (3600 lb shipping wt, over 3800 lb on the street) Fastback Cobra/Cyclone indeed won several in SS/J=10.00 and SS/JA=10.00 classes. I have Winter Payne SS/J Caster SS/JA Spring Payne SS/J Glidden SS/JA Indy Johnson SS/JA Cyclone The only time that combo did NOT win was SS/J at Indy, won by a little cussball Chevy II 327/275hp. Those cars are so light they're known to pop the windshields out if the car hooks up with the stock unibody. CHEVY: The ZL1 NHRA weight is 3124 lb not 2800 lb. The L79 66 Nova came in at 2800 lb though. PONTIAC: The Max Sterling picture is not a 62 Cat 421/405sd. I think that picture in your writeup is a 61, maybe his previous car? Here is a picture from Petersen of Max's *62* White Lightning car https://archive.petersen.org/pages/p...php?ref=316653 Confusing because both cars are #1310. Glad we have oldskool here because all this Pontiac stuff is very confusing, still. MOPAR: AFAIK the Street Hemi was always factored to 480hp, 1966-71. All in all a superbly enjoyable writeup. Great service to history. EDIT: I did this post 29 October, but did some edits on 30 October, just put them in here to keep it all in 1 spot. Still catching up on pgs 11-15 of the thread! Last edited by DeuceCoupe; 10-30-2021 at 11:51 AM. |
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#4 |
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"...1969 now published. Thank you both for your help..."
I noticed just a couple of things about the Pontiac info, which are very minor. (1) About the Ben Wolf car, which we decided, if it was indeed a Pontiac, had to be either a '68 or '69 Bird, with RA2 or RA4 engine: Since you decided on a '69, the factory rating for the RA4 engine, in a '69 Bird, is 345, not 375. It's factory rated 370 in a '69 GTO. Don't know what the NHRA factors were in '69. Maybe it was 375 & that's why you used that number. (2) Later you referred to a GTO RA4 engine as an "oval port". Pontiac guys have always referred to 'em as "round" port. The '68 RA2, '69 & '70 RA4, '71 & '72 455HO, '73 & '74 SD455 engines were all said to have "round" port heads, since the exhaust ports were all perfectly round. Just as a side note, the '69 thru '72 round port engines also had aluminum intake manifolds. Again I'll say these are very minor things, but will be quickly noticed by most all Pontiac guys who read it. I suppose each car brand has certain terminology for their equipment. Some Pontiac guys are real sticklers for using the term "Tri-Power", rather than "Three Deuces". I personally prefer to use "Three Deuces". I suppose that's because of the goofy GTO song I've always loved. You know, "Three deuces & a 4 speed, & a 389". ![]() But, because Tri-Power seems to be more acceptable to most Pontiac guys, I've tried to use Tri-Power, when posting info. But, in person, I'll usually say a car has 3-deuces, rather than saying "It's a Tri-Power car". https://pontiactripower.com/ |
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#5 |
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Just as most people like to root for the home team, I'd like to see more Pontiacs in your results.
2 cars that come to mind, that I don't remember seeing, are the Greg Murnane '67 "Limelighter" GTO & the Gary Moore '61 "Acre Maker" Pontiac. Both cars were nat record holders & class winners. Moore won the NHRA div 4 points in '68. IIRC, Murnane was #2 in div 5 points with his GTO. Besides just me wanting more Pontiac coverage, just because I'm a Pontiac guy, once the Mopars took over, in the mid '60's, Mopars & Fords are about all you see. So, for those later '60's years, having more Pontiac pics would just add a little more variety to the presentation. And, considering all the super strong Ford & Mopar competition, it seems to me to have been quite a feat to win class & set records, with a Pontiac. Hey, this is just a completely biased post. I admit it ! ![]() Last edited by oldskool; 10-30-2021 at 04:41 AM. |
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