Stock Suggestion # 1

[Alan Roehrich]

I've read a lot of replies to this thread, and read them several times. I keep seeing people talking about "lighter cars breaking less parts", and "lighter cars being faster", among other things. I do not believe some of you understand what Jeff Teuton is proposing.

I suggest you read this again, and pay very close attention:

Originally Posted by Jeff Teuton

I propose this on the thought of speeding up the old cars, not slowing down the new cars. I would take 10% HP off all combos and keep the shipping weights where they are. Cars 2007 and older. It appears the LS1 needs something less than 10%. Indexes stay the same. The assumption is AHFS in it's present form or similar is here to stay. I can't download the Class Guides (new computer and over my grade level) or I would post some examples. Maybe some of you could do that for your combo or one you are familiar. How about the 396 cars. There are a bunch of them. A 3400 lb shipping weight car currently @ 400 hp is a B/S car @ 8.5. The same car @ 360 which is less the 10% would have a factor of 9.44 or C/S almost D/S. Somewhere around 2 classes. Just a thought, but I have been proposing this for a few years. Who knows, might find an ear out there.

Don't get me wrong. I like Jeff Teuton, I respect him, he's a great guy, he's one of my favorite people, I always enjoy seeing him at the track or at a trade show, I always enjoy talking to him, even though we often do not agree at all. The fact that we disagree completely on this subject does not change that at all.

You will not end up with a lighter car under his HP factor reduction proposal. You will not end up with a faster car. You will end up with a car that runs further under the index. In a lower class. Temporarily.

Jeff asked for an example, so here is one very similar to what he started with.

Take a current, very popular combination, the 1969 Camaro 396/375 with aluminum heads. Currently, this car is a natural A car, with a HP factor of 405HP, and a curb weight of 3337 pounds. Currently, it is at 8.24 pounds per factored HP, which being between 8.0 and 8.5 is a natural A/SA. So, Jeff Teuton is proposing to take 10% off of the current 405HP factor. As such, 405HP, minus 40.5HP, or 10%, equals 364.5HP, which rounds up to 365HP. Your curb weight remains the same, 3337 pounds. So, 3337 pounds, divided by the new HP factor of 365HP, yields a factor of 9.14 pounds per HP, which being between 9.0 and 9.5 pounds per HP, makes it a natural C/SA combination, you can run B/SA, C/SA, or D/SA . So, your A/SA 1969 Camaro, that runs 10.0, now becomes a C/SA 1969 Camaro, that runs 10.0. Your index changes from 11.00, to 11.40. So, where you were running 1.0 under the index, now you can run 1.4 under the index. And when you run 1.4 under the index, the next Tuesday, you get a nice little gift from NHRA, of 26.46HP, rounded up to 27HP, putting you right up at 392HP, well over 1/2 way back to where you started. And we all know the combination is capable of 1.1 to 1.2 under right now in a fast car. So when someone in a C/SA 69 Camaro 396/375 aluminum head car runs one all the way out, well, I think you know what happens then.

Now, I'm not seeing the real gift here. You pretty much just drop a couple of classes, so you can run further under. So now, you have to sand bag, drop at 1000', or what ever you need to do to kill over 2 tenths, (that's if you started with a 1.0 under car) just to avoid an instant 3.25% hit, and hope everyone else does the same, to protect your combination. And they won't. The AHFS is going to get you, and hang that HP back on you, either by instant hits when someone wants to or needs to go fast, or by constantly hitting the trigger for an adjustment for the average.

He's not proposing to reduce your weight, and make your car faster, he's proposing to move your car down 2-3 classes so you can run 1.4 to 1.6 under the index. Which, since you will NOT be immune to the AHFS like the factory cars are at some races, will earn you that same HP right back.

You're car is not going to be lighter, so it breaks fewer parts, and goes faster. Your car is just going to move down a few classes so it can run further under the index. For a very short while, until someone with your combination starts getting you some nice gifts from NHRA on Tuesday mornings.

If you think that's a good solution, well, go right ahead and support it. I guess if you want your good running A/SA car to become a real fast C/SA car, it works okay. So long as everyone protects it. From where I sit, it looks like worse than where we are right now. This is a very short term temporary solution. It has zero effect on the factory race cars that now cause the problem. Zero effect. Nothing changes for them.


If anyone successfully convinces NHRA to do anything about the problem, and that in itself is a huge "if", they're going to do one thing, one time. If it doesn't work, oh well. So, be real careful what you ask for, or what someone asks for on your behalf.

[Billy Nees]

Originally Posted by Alan Roehrich

I've read a lot of replies to this thread, and read them several times. I keep seeing people talking about "lighter cars breaking less parts", and "lighter cars being faster", among other things. I do not believe some of you understand what Jeff Teuton is proposing.

I suggest you read this again, and pay very close attention:



Don't get me wrong. I like Jeff Teuton, I respect him, he's a great guy, he's one of my favorite people, I always enjoy seeing him at the track or at a trade show, I always enjoy talking to him, even though we often do not agree at all. The fact that we disagree completely on this subject does not change that at all.

You will not end up with a lighter car under his HP factor reduction proposal. You will not end up with a faster car. You will end up with a car that runs further under the index. In a lower class. Temporarily.

Jeff asked for an example, so here is one very similar to what he started with.

Take a current, very popular combination, the 1969 Camaro 396/375 with aluminum heads. Currently, this car is a natural A car, with a HP factor of 405HP, and a curb weight of 3337 pounds. Currently, it is at 8.24 pounds per factored HP, which being between 8.0 and 8.5 is a natural A/SA. So, Jeff Teuton is proposing to take 10% off of the current 405HP factor. As such, 405HP, minus 40.5HP, or 10%, equals 364.5HP, which rounds up to 365HP. Your curb weight remains the same, 3337 pounds. So, 3337 pounds, divided by the new HP factor of 365HP, yields a factor of 9.14 pounds per HP, which being between 9.0 and 9.5 pounds per HP, makes it a natural C/SA combination, you can run B/SA, C/SA, or D/SA . So, your A/SA 1969 Camaro, that runs 10.0, now becomes a C/SA 1969 Camaro, that runs 10.0. Your index changes from 11.00, to 11.40. So, where you were running 1.0 under the index, now you can run 1.4 under the index. And when you run 1.4 under the index, the next Tuesday, you get a nice little gift from NHRA, of 26.46HP, rounded up to 27HP, putting you right up at 392HP, well over 1/2 way back to where you started. And we all know the combination is capable of 1.1 to 1.2 under right now in a fast car. So when someone in a C/SA 69 Camaro 396/375 aluminum head car runs one all the way out, well, I think you know what happens then.

Now, I'm not seeing the real gift here. You pretty much just drop a couple of classes, so you can run further under. So now, you have to sand bag, drop at 1000', or what ever you need to do to kill over 2 tenths, (that's if you started with a 1.0 under car) just to avoid an instant 3.25% hit, and hope everyone else does the same, to protect your combination. And they won't. The AHFS is going to get you, and hang that HP back on you, either by instant hits when someone wants to or needs to go fast, or by constantly hitting the trigger for an adjustment for the average.

He's not proposing to reduce your weight, and make your car faster, he's proposing to move your car down 2-3 classes so you can run 1.4 to 1.6 under the index. Which, since you will NOT be immune to the AHFS like the factory cars are at some races, will earn you that same HP right back.

You're car is not going to be lighter, so it breaks fewer parts, and goes faster. Your car is just going to move down a few classes so it can run further under the index. For a very short while, until someone with your combination starts getting you some nice gifts from NHRA on Tuesday mornings.

If you think that's a good solution, well, go right ahead and support it. I guess if you want your good running A/SA car to become a real fast C/SA car, it works okay. So long as everyone protects it. From where I sit, it looks like worse than where we are right now. This is a very short term temporary solution. It has zero effect on the factory race cars that now cause the problem. Zero effect. Nothing changes for them.


If anyone successfully convinces NHRA to do anything about the problem, and that in itself is a huge "if", they're going to do one thing, one time. If it doesn't work, oh well. So, be real careful what you ask for, or what someone asks for on your behalf.

I guess I'll be the one to bring up an "issue" that Jeff would never think of, when this "fix" gets down into the lower classes it will push the cars out of classes that they are in into classes that they can't legally run. Example, Capt. Jacks wagon. Take 10% off of his wagon (10% of 215 =21.5/22) and he's got a V/SA car that can't run V with a V/8 or he winds up in U with a car that can't make minimum wt. anyway. It would drastically affect the FWD stuff too.

[Mark Yacavone]

Originally Posted by Billy Nees

I guess I'll be the one to bring up an "issue" that Jeff would never think of, when this "fix" gets down into the lower classes it will push the cars out of classes that they are in into classes that they can't legally run. Example, Capt. Jacks wagon. Take 10% off of his wagon (10% of 215 =21.5/22) and he's got a V/SA car that can't run V with a V/8 or he winds up in U with a car that can't make minimum wt. anyway. It would drastically affect the FWD stuff too.

That's right Billy..It's called the rule of unintended consequences .

Also called "throwing out the baby with the bath water."

[Bob Mulry]

Last time...................

Larry Morgan had it right.....You just can't fix stupid

Here we are setting our computers on fire trying to fix a problem that didn't exist before NHRA had a stupid attack and turned Stock Upside Down.........

This is my last solution for the problem that stupid started..

Whenever a NORMAL Stock Eliminator car is forced to race a Factory Shootout (FX) car the AHFS should be removed for BOTH cars on that run and in addition the NORMAL Stock Eliminator car will be able to run a 3 stage NOS system with no AHFS in place.....

This makes more sense than any other fix and makes tech inspection easy.......If 2 NORMAL Stock Eliminator car race they would be required to remove their NOS bottles and AHFS would remain in place...

Bob


PS:
Do you think that this sounds as stupid as some of the other fixes????????????????????????

[Jeff Teuton]

Yall fix it.

[Hagen Gary]

Originally Posted by Jeff Teuton

Yall fix it.

If we could put yall in your own classes, we would. You have FX cars. That's where they belong. It's the only easy and fair solution. Btw, when we bought our old 396/375, it would run .50 under. 5 years and a ton of work and money later, we are close to 1.00, but we can't touch any new car even with NOS. See the problem here? I dont want to play the sandbag game you want to force on us. Id rather see who can make their fairly rated combo go faster. I only 34, and what I love about stock is the old muscle cars. It's like going to a car show where they put them on the back bumper. New cars have put such a bad taste in my mouth, I chose to support Toyota and Nissan for my family cars. People outside of racing ask me all the time about what car they should get. I guess because I'm a car guy. I haven't steared them towards the big 3 in 5 years. It's my own little protest. I'd say that's counterproductive to the factories trying to sell cars.

[Jeff Teuton]

Since you seem to have a total handle on it, you fix it. Here are a couple of facts for you to work with. The new cars are not going away. NHRA has no interest on what is posted here. Some sort of representative thought process from a person or committee might get a look. Just my vain attempt to help as I have done since the 90's. And as I finally found out after several years of the SRA days, everyone is only interested in their own combo and has no interest in the majority of racers. So, you fix it. Tech@NHRA.com is where your plans should go. I'm sure they will welcome it with open arms.

[Hagen Gary]

I know you have help fix a bunch of stuff that wasn't completely right. I'm pretty sure everyone does. Doesn't mean that you are not way off base here. But you not wanting to do anything that messes with your car is clear proof that what you said is true. You don't even want to go in your own class knowing you have a clear advantage over everyone in your current class. You would rather all of us change everything in stock that has been here forever. It's weird

[Mark Yacavone]

Originally Posted by Jeff Teuton

Yall fix it.

Already have.
Of course I haven't seen one response or comment..Pro or con.

I've seen complex formulas..

I've seen massive changes to the class structure.

Makes you wonder what the heck is the real motivation is here for some folks..

Originally Posted by Mark Yacavone

I agree with you there, having seen how NHRA operates for some time now.

Now, what could be simpler than adding a couple of vinyl X's in front of the FX cars' class designation?

No heads up between non -X and X cars ,ever.

X cars run their own Combo class.

FS special shootouts subject to AHFS regs.

Jeez, I'm beginning to sound like Bill Dedman here.

But, what's the problem with this ?
Only thing I see is FX cars don't get to beat up on older, well thrashed muscle car combinations for the factories' benefit.

Maybe that IS the problem with this simple solution.

[Hagen Gary]

Originally Posted by Alan Roehrich

I've read a lot of replies to this thread, and read them several times. I keep seeing people talking about "lighter cars breaking less parts", and "lighter cars being faster", among other things. I do not believe some of you understand what Jeff Teuton is proposing.

I suggest you read this again, and pay very close attention:



Don't get me wrong. I like Jeff Teuton, I respect him, he's a great guy, he's one of my favorite people, I always enjoy seeing him at the track or at a trade show, I always enjoy talking to him, even though we often do not agree at all. The fact that we disagree completely on this subject does not change that at all.

You will not end up with a lighter car under his HP factor reduction proposal. You will not end up with a faster car. You will end up with a car that runs further under the index. In a lower class. Temporarily.

Jeff asked for an example, so here is one very similar to what he started with.

Take a current, very popular combination, the 1969 Camaro 396/375 with aluminum heads. Currently, this car is a natural A car, with a HP factor of 405HP, and a curb weight of 3337 pounds. Currently, it is at 8.24 pounds per factored HP, which being between 8.0 and 8.5 is a natural A/SA. So, Jeff Teuton is proposing to take 10% off of the current 405HP factor. As such, 405HP, minus 40.5HP, or 10%, equals 364.5HP, which rounds up to 365HP. Your curb weight remains the same, 3337 pounds. So, 3337 pounds, divided by the new HP factor of 365HP, yields a factor of 9.14 pounds per HP, which being between 9.0 and 9.5 pounds per HP, makes it a natural C/SA combination, you can run B/SA, C/SA, or D/SA . So, your A/SA 1969 Camaro, that runs 10.0, now becomes a C/SA 1969 Camaro, that runs 10.0. Your index changes from 11.00, to 11.40. So, where you were running 1.0 under the index, now you can run 1.4 under the index. And when you run 1.4 under the index, the next Tuesday, you get a nice little gift from NHRA, of 26.46HP, rounded up to 27HP, putting you right up at 392HP, well over 1/2 way back to where you started. And we all know the combination is capable of 1.1 to 1.2 under right now in a fast car. So when someone in a C/SA 69 Camaro 396/375 aluminum head car runs one all the way out, well, I think you know what happens then.

Now, I'm not seeing the real gift here. You pretty much just drop a couple of classes, so you can run further under. So now, you have to sand bag, drop at 1000', or what ever you need to do to kill over 2 tenths, (that's if you started with a 1.0 under car) just to avoid an instant 3.25% hit, and hope everyone else does the same, to protect your combination. And they won't. The AHFS is going to get you, and hang that HP back on you, either by instant hits when someone wants to or needs to go fast, or by constantly hitting the trigger for an adjustment for the average.

He's not proposing to reduce your weight, and make your car faster, he's proposing to move your car down 2-3 classes so you can run 1.4 to 1.6 under the index. Which, since you will NOT be immune to the AHFS like the factory cars are at some races, will earn you that same HP right back.

You're car is not going to be lighter, so it breaks fewer parts, and goes faster. Your car is just going to move down a few classes so it can run further under the index. For a very short while, until someone with your combination starts getting you some nice gifts from NHRA on Tuesday mornings.

If you think that's a good solution, well, go right ahead and support it. I guess if you want your good running A/SA car to become a real fast C/SA car, it works okay. So long as everyone protects it. From where I sit, it looks like worse than where we are right now. This is a very short term temporary solution. It has zero effect on the factory race cars that now cause the problem. Zero effect. Nothing changes for them.


If anyone successfully convinces NHRA to do anything about the problem, and that in itself is a huge "if", they're going to do one thing, one time. If it doesn't work, oh well. So, be real careful what you ask for, or what someone asks for on your behalf.

Nailed it!! 10% off for old cars is an absolute joke. I can't even believe it's gaining traction with some people. It will solve nothing. Is that Jeff's intent? I would hope not. Old cars arnt the problem. They didn't cause this mess. Fix the real problem