Where are the lower class cars?

[Michael Beard]

Originally Posted by Jack Matyas

Michael - You became a World Champion without deep staging so is it needed ?

...with a low 11-sec crate motor car each time, neither of which qualifies as a lower class car. We've spent a great deal of time on the phone discussing reaction times, even in regards to a fast car like yours. How many people do you think could hit the tree, both good and consistent, in a lower classed car without deep staging? There aren't too many people out there wired like Billy Nees (insert your own joke here).

The elimination of deep staging wasn't a stroke of the pen that eliminated slow cars and instituted factory race cars overnight. It was a nudge that was just one contribution to a chain of events, in my opinion. It wasn't long after deep staging was eliminated that you started to see a number of drivers move from lower class cars to faster cars. (always exceptions of course, like Lang) Not saying it's right or wrong, but it seems like a self-fulfilling prophecy: The more people that chose to run fast cars, the more people felt like they needed fast cars to compete. Obviously, each individual has their own reasons for building a given car, but it seems that the many people are led to the same conclusion. There has been a definite change in the general makeup of the field since I started racing.

And the FWD class elimination was because there were just too many classes - don't you agree ?

Yes and no. I think there are too many classes as a whole, but that's another discussion that has already been debated and is currently dead on arrival. Both then and now, there are reasonable ways to handle consolidation of classes. Going from 16 classes to 5 (and the way in which it was implemented) was overkill. The irony is that many people feel it was ok for the FWD cars, but it's fought against strongly when the same idea is applied to other cars. There was a decent number of FWD cars out there when I got started. Where are they now? Is it reasonable for a car to be 225# heavy for one class and 400# light for the next? Is it reasonable for a car that could run -1.000 under the old format now run -.30 under? Would either of these examples be tolerated for a B/SA combination?

Was there a downside to "too many" FWD classes before outside of Class singles? While it is after the fact, today's Class Eliminations structure eliminates that issue. What would the effect of a more reasonable class structure be today? Does it help or hurt the sport or class? 'Who cares about FWD cars anyway? It's just a couple of cars.' A couple of cars here and a couple of cars there, gone (for a multitude of different reason), and you wonder why we have discussions about car counts...

The horse may have already left the barn. The level of competition today and the cumulative years of strategic knowledge (two things intertwined) are ultimately going to lead the majority of people to build faster cars. Does it help or hurt the sport when the Billy Nees's of the sport are gone? The only thing driving cars back down into lower (more like mid-range) classes right now, in my opinion, is the prospect of numerous heads-up runs in the growing ranks of the upper classes.

$.02,

[GarysZ24]

Originally Posted by Michael Beard

...with a low 11-sec crate motor car each time, neither of which qualifies as a lower class car. We've spent a great deal of time on the phone discussing reaction times, even in regards to a fast car like yours. How many people do you think could hit the tree, both good and consistent, in a lower classed car without deep staging? There aren't too many people out there wired like Billy Nees (insert your own joke here).

The elimination of deep staging wasn't a stroke of the pen that eliminated slow cars and instituted factory race cars overnight. It was a nudge that was just one contribution to a chain of events, in my opinion. It wasn't long after deep staging was eliminated that you started to see a number of drivers move from lower class cars to faster cars. (always exceptions of course, like Lang) Not saying it's right or wrong, but it seems like a self-fulfilling prophecy: The more people that chose to run fast cars, the more people felt like they needed fast cars to compete. Obviously, each individual has their own reasons for building a given car, but it seems that the many people are led to the same conclusion. There has been a definite change in the general makeup of the field since I started racing.



Yes and no. I think there are too many classes as a whole, but that's another discussion that has already been debated and is currently dead on arrival. Both then and now, there are reasonable ways to handle consolidation of classes. Going from 16 classes to 5 (and the way in which it was implemented) was overkill. The irony is that many people feel it was ok for the FWD cars, but it's fought against strongly when the same idea is applied to other cars. There was a decent number of FWD cars out there when I got started. Where are they now? Is it reasonable for a car to be 225# heavy for one class and 400# light for the next? Is it reasonable for a car that could run -1.000 under the old format now run -.30 under? Would either of these examples be tolerated for a B/SA combination?

Was there a downside to "too many" FWD classes before outside of Class singles? While it is after the fact, today's Class Eliminations structure eliminates that issue. What would the effect of a more reasonable class structure be today? Does it help or hurt the sport or class? 'Who cares about FWD cars anyway? It's just a couple of cars.' A couple of cars here and a couple of cars there, gone (for a multitude of different reason), and you wonder why we have discussions about car counts...

The horse may have already left the barn. The level of competition today and the cumulative years of strategic knowledge (two things intertwined) are ultimately going to lead the majority of people to build faster cars. Does it help or hurt the sport when the Billy Nees's of the sport are gone? The only thing driving cars back down into lower (more like mid-range) classes right now, in my opinion, is the prospect of numerous heads-up runs in the growing ranks of the upper classes.

$.02,

I couldn't agree more Michael!

[GarysZ24]

Originally Posted by Michael Beard

Two easy examples: The elimination of deep staging and the consolidation of FWD classes.

(Unrelated) Do you still have your Ventura?

Now, Michael, I have to agree with you here...thank GOD for IHRA, although I never was good at the deep staging part.

[Billy Nees]

Originally Posted by Jack Matyas

Michael - Regulations ? I don't see it

Jack, the "Regulations are there and you're seeing them. You're just not understanding the repercussions of them (just like the tech dept.) on the "non hi performance" based combos.
Just some easy to explain new regs., replacement heads, carbs, transmissions, ceramic lifters, non stock valvesprings and valve train. All of these things don't help a "restricted" engine combo one bit. My Pontiac came with a metric trans in it to my advantage, now any GM gains my advantage with no benefit to me. I don't get a replacement aluminium head or aftermarket carb, no benefit. Exotic aftermarket valvetrain parts don't help me either as my engines don't want to RPM any more than they do now.
Now before you go getting all defensive please understand, I know that there are benefits to the combos that I run and I'm not complaining about the new regs.(rules) I'm just stating in fact that they are (intentionally or not) increasing the performance gap between the upper and lower class combos. (lower class being a relative term)

[GarysZ24]

Originally Posted by Jack Matyas

Michael - Regulations ? I don't see it .My thoughts are they are dwindling because mostly they are grass roots racers who simply can't afford to keep up in these hard economic times .I just don't see the nudges .......

Frankly they are great for our sport - some fans love to root for the slow - lumbering cars - yet others like the big guns .Nothing better than to see an R/SA being chased by a 9 second late model or even an early Hemi or God forbid - a '69 Camaro .Doesn't matter which you want to win - it's always a great race ! ! !

x2 Jack, as I sure loved that even though the great Scotty Richardson won the Stock World Title in the NHRA (back in the mid-90's, he certainly didn't accomplish that at the expense of one Lane "The Hawk" Weber, and his 15-16sec Buick Skyhawk...that was a fun race to watch!!! WAY TO GO HAWK!!!

[GarysZ24]

Originally Posted by Jack Matyas

Michael - Regulations ? I don't see it .My thoughts are they are dwindling because mostly they are grass roots racers who simply can't afford to keep up in these hard economic times .I just don't see the nudges .......

Frankly they are great for our sport - some fans love to root for the slow - lumbering cars - yet others like the big guns .Nothing better than to see an R/SA being chased by a 9 second late model or even an early Hemi or God forbid - a '69 Camaro .Doesn't matter which you want to win - it's always a great race ! ! !

x2 Jack.

[GarysZ24]

Originally Posted by Frito

I did notice Randall Campball at Bristol made it down to the semi finals in his N/SA, he was dialed at 14.05. So much for the lower class cars, or trucks, being a disavantage. The 4 second spot against Keith Lynch was interesting to watch and had a lot of folks in the stands on their feet watching the finish line.

Cool