questions concerning christmas tree

[bill dedman]

Ed said, ".I don't want or see a reason to change what has worked since 1964."

Problem is, it HASN'T ever worked...

It has ALWAYS favored the second car to leave, in this way: It the first car to leave red lights, the second car to leave never has HIS chance to red light. He may well have a worse red light than the first car to leave, but he's never in that jeopardy if the first car bulbs.

That makes NO SENSE. Why should ANYBODY get a free ride like that?

They shouldn't... and it's the same if a AA/S car is running against an A/S, or a V/S car is running a W/S. The odds favor the second car to leave, if both leave before the green. This isn't about slow cars vs. fast cars; it's about ANY two cars that have dialin's... be they fast, or slow.

Using your "logic", Ed, we'd still be making a loser out of the first car to breakout. They had it that way, at first, but fixed it after everybody saw how stupid that was.

The worse breakout loses; why shouldn't the worse redlight lose???? Just because they couldn't fix that, back in 1963, doesn't mean it has "worked" for 46 years, They can fix it, now....

Oh yes, they have gotten the races run off, but then, there's more to fairness than just finishing the race on the day it started.

And, if you think that complaining about a system that screws the first car to leave is "whining," then I can't even talk to you...

[Alan Roehrich]

It hasn't worked? Well, I'll be damned. We haven't been racing for decades, because of the red light rule? Boy, I sure am glad all you guys came along to tell us all drag racing hasn't worked for 40 years, the rest of us would never have figured that one out.

I raced a slower car last year, a G/S Camaro and at least two rounds I lost to a faster car because I redlighted. I didn't feel the slightest bit cheated by the system or the rule. I felt like I screwed up. Because I screwed up, no one screwed me.

If you built a slower car after the christmas tree and the first to go red rule came along, you made a conscious decision to do so knowing the rules. No one forced you to do it, and no one came along and changed the rules on you.

How about we change the rules so that if the fast car spins, you have to rerun the race? Or, if the track is marginal, the slower car has to put WD-40 all over his slicks?

If I get lucky and get another ride next year, you can bet I won't whine if it isn't a fast car, and I'll do the same thing if I go red as I did last year. Ask Fred Suiter, I pulled up and told him he ran a great race and he kicked my red lighting ***. I took my loss like a man, and like a racer, and tried to do better the next time.

[bill dedman]

Alan; I thought you were smarter than that... I have read your many posts, and you always, before, seemed to make a lot of sense... but I am thinking now, that your logic has been short-circuited by the possibility that you run a higher-classed car that would never benefit from the level playing field that a worse red light rule will provide.

You said, "It hasn't worked? Well, I'll be damned. We haven't been racing for decades, because of the red light rule? Boy, I sure am glad all you guys came along to tell us all drag racing hasn't worked for 40 years, the rest of us would never have figured that one out."

Did I say it prevented us from racing at all???

No.

I said it didn't "work," and, it didn't... and it doesn't.

Would you like to return to "The first car to break out loses"??? That makes just as much sense...

Think about it.

What doesn't "work" about the current system is that it prevents equal red light jeopardy. The second car to leave is no longer in jeopardy of a red light, if the first car bulbs. Where is the other side of that coin???

There is none with the present system. But, this lopsided situation doesn't have to continue.

What we now have, is a system, born of necessity (in 1963) when there was no electronic capability to provide a dual reaction-timing system. That time has come and gone, and now it can be fixed by utilizing software that compares the lights (reaction times) of BOTH cars, before a red light is displayed.

People complain that it's "Just another change, and we've already had ENOUGH changes," but it's not a change that will affect anyone's driving program; nobody will be aware that it's even in place, until after both cars have left the line.

There's simply no legitimate reason NOT to change this.

But, since NHRA is what it is, and it won't make them one red cent, it will likely never happen there. I'd expect to see it in IHRA protocol before NHRA ever gets around to fixing it, so relax; your advantage is secure, for the moment.

[Alan Roehrich]

Originally Posted by bill dedman

Alan; I thought you were smarter than that... I have read your many posts, and you always, before, seemed to make a lot of sense... but I am thinking now, that your logic has been short-circuited by the possibility that you run a higher-classed car that would never benefit from the level playing field that a worse red light rule will provide.

You said, "It hasn't worked? Well, I'll be damned. We haven't been racing for decades, because of the red light rule? Boy, I sure am glad all you guys came along to tell us all drag racing hasn't worked for 40 years, the rest of us would never have figured that one out."

Did I say it prevented us from racing at all???

No.

I said it didn't "work," and, it didn't... and it doesn't.

Would you like to return to "The first car to break out loses"??? That makes just as much sense...

Think about it.

What doesn't "work" about the current system is that it prevents equal red light jeopardy. The second car to leave is no longer in jeopardy of a red light, if the first car bulbs. Where is the other side of that coin???

There is none with the present system. But, this lopsided situation doesn't have to continue.

What we now have, is a system, born of necessity (in 1963) when there was no electronic capability to provide a dual reaction-timing system. That time has come and gone, and now it can be fixed by utilizing software that compares the lights (reaction times) of BOTH cars, before a red light is displayed.

People complain that it's "Just another change, and we've already had ENOUGH changes," but it's not a change that will affect anyone's driving program; nobody will be aware that it's even in place, until after both cars have left the line.

There's simply no legitimate reason NOT to change this.

But, since NHRA is what it is, and it won't make them one red cent, it will likely never happen there. I'd expect to see it in IHRA protocol before NHRA ever gets around to fixing it, so relax; your advantage is secure, for the moment.

Bill, do you own a car? Do you drive one? Do you even work on one?

Hell, there's a possibility that I might drive a Top Fuel car. That doesn't change the way I think, either.

I don't HAVE an advantage. I raced a SLOW G/S car last year. If I drive next year, I might race something else slow.

EVERYTHING is a trade off. The faster cars have traction problems that slow cars don't have, they sit on the line a long time when racing slow cars, they don't get a clean tree when racing slower cars. They get two advantages for those three disadvantages, they chase slow cars, and they don't get the first chance to go red.

Of all the things that can be done to improve the condition of sportsman racing, if that improves it at all, that would have to be all the way at the bottom of the list. Of all the things that are wrong, the same people keep bringing up the red light thing. That's like treating a hang nail on a guy with a sucking chest wound. People need to stop growing pearls.

[bill dedman]

Originally Posted by Alan Roehrich

Bill, do you own a car?

Why would you ask?

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Do you drive one?

Again, why would you ask?

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Do you even work on one?

For the third time, why do you want to know this.

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This sounds like "KILL THE MESSENGER!!!"

It looks like you can't effectively deal with the issues of the subject at hand, so you try to deflect attention away from these issues by attacking the "Messenger," which is, in this case, ME.

Exactly what does my personal "car" status have to do with an antiquated system of racing that victimizes the first-to-leave by exposing them to red-light jeopardy 100-percent of the time, while removing, COMPLETELY, any red light jeopardy from the second car to leave, IF the first car redlights?

I don't know what earthly connection my cars, and what I do with them, could have to do with this software problem..

Maybe you could explain that to me; why you would rather use bandwidth here, to discredit me, than to discuss the issues involved in the worse red light problem.

You want to do anything BUT talk about the fact that 50-percent of the handicapped races run, give the advantage (the possibility of not having the potential to red light) to the second car to leave, whether it's an AA/SA car, or a V/SA car... it can and does happen to both, depending on whom they're racing against.

Your litany of advantages/disadvantages of slower/faster cars is not pertinent to this discussion. You can't try to "equalize" things between classes by "awarding" certain perks to this class or that; it would never end!!!

This worse red light system gives an advantage to NOBODY. NOBODY!!!

What could be fairer than that?

To be fair to you, though, I should give you a little personal background, because I haven't had a "class" car for a long time.

My drag racing started in 1955 (I was 17) at the Carlisle, Arkansas Drag Strip, where, 3 years later, I started working the Stocker tech line, and eventually was made an NHRA "Area Tech Advisor" by the Div. IV Division Director of the time, Dale Ham. It was an unpaid position, but I was given the responsibilty for keeping the Stock Car Classiication Guide keeping it updated, keeping all the tech sheets, and keeping them updated, and ruilng on protest decisions. I worked the Stocker Tech line there from 1958 'til I moved to Des Moines, IA in 1964. I worked the Stocker Tech line at that strip (Des Moines Dragway) until it closed in 1968. My race car at that time was a '57 Chevy sedan delivery Stocker, one of the never-never Hydramatic cars. Previously, I had run several Gas Coupes, (one a blown SBC/Hydro), and, sometimes in partnership with others.

My current ride is a '72 Valiant with a 360 Magnum/904 combination, a street/strip car with a Vortech centrifugal blower. It turns 106mph at our local 1,000-foot strip, (we don't have any quarter-mile strips in Arkansas, unfortunately). I keep the boost at a maximum of 10 pounds to preserve the head gaskets...

It makes me smile...

I have a couple of close friends who run Stockers; one in A/SA and one in H/SA... I keep current by hanging around them as much as I can, subscribing to Nitro Joe's Stats, and reading the results on Summit's FAST NEWS every time there's a race.

Is that addicted enough??? I'd race a class-legal Stocker if I could afford it.

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Hell, there's a possibility that I might drive a Top Fuel car. That doesn't change the way I think, either.

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I don't know "the way you think." I present you with what ~I~ think are good, legitimate reasons that this flawed system needs to be changed, and you respond by asking questions that makes it sound like I have NO IDEA what I'm talking about, and then, bring up 101 reasons why this or that is an advantage, and so what???

The things you mentioned are things we cannot change.

This is something we CAN change..

Look, Alan, this is in no way MY IDEA. In fact, I raced and watched racing religiously, for many, many, years before somebody clued me in as to the skewed way things are run, with regard to red lights, in handicapped races.

It took this guy about four or five tries, explaining it to me, for me to finally "get it." I am not the sharpest knife in the drawer...

Once I thought about it for a month or so, it finally sunk in, and I could not BE:LIEVE that I hadn't realized it, before! I believe in tradition... and have always thought that way... but, tradition, in this case, needs some shaking up.

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I don't HAVE an advantage. I raced a SLOW G/S car last year. If I drive next year, I might race something else slow.

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With the current system, you have an advantage every time you race a G, H, I, J, K, L, M, N, and so on, car... That car might red light, giving you a free ride!!!

Overall, there may be a 50/50 split between your chasing and being chased, but you are still at a disadvantage any time you're the first to leave. Why should ANYBODY be at a disadvantage, regardless of when they leave (relative to the other car)???

This is something that can be fixed, but like I said, NHRA isn't going to bust their collective *** to do the right thing, because it will cost them a few bucks thay don't have, right now, and won't make them a plugged nickel.


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Of all the things that can be done to improve the condition of sportsman racing, if that improves it at all, that would have to be all the way at the bottom of the list. Of all the things that are wrong, the same people keep bringing up the red light thing. That's like treating a hang nail on a guy with a sucking chest wound. People need to stop growing pearls.

That's because:
1. It's been going on for 36 years... THIRTY-SIX YEARS!!!! And, seemingly, nothing is being done about it.

2. It's an easy "fix" that requires nothing in the way of driving adjustment or changes, and no new hardware ($$$) is required by the associations or strips; it's just a software re-hash.

3. Some people still don't understand how it works (took me a LONG time to "get it") and the more they read about it, the closer they come to understanding why it's a good thing...

4. The other things that need fixing (schedules, P.A's for the pits, the AHFS-system, re-structuring the classes to de-fuse the Mustang/Drag-Pack Dodge situation, and about two dozen more,) are generally so complicated that they will take a long time to correct. This read light deal is something that could be done tomorrow.... so-to-speak.

5. I just like to run my mouth....

Hope you'll think about this, and if you can think of any rational, lgical, legitimate, reason that it wouldn't be an improvement in the "level playing field" aspect of handicapped drag racing. please tell me; I'm all ears!!!

Thanks for listening.

[Ed Fernandez]

Bill,buy a car,race it and then I'll take your wazooie ideas into consideration.Until then you're a keyboard racer who's constant meddling can cause grief to those who still chose to spend our hard earned money racing S/SS.Thanks for reading.

[bill dedman]

Ed, I have a race car. I told you all about it in a post about a month ago.

Do you remember?

I do...

I know you're not as old as I am; you should remember...

But, this issue doesn't require the owning of a car to understand it.

What aspects of this worse red light question do you think requires the ownership of a car to understand?

Enlighten me... please.

P. S. What kind of grief would it cause you to finally get a fair shake when racing a quicker car? You never have, you know...