64 Plymouth GT/EA in Ennis

[James L Miller]

First, I'd like to know who at IHRA will approve fiberglass replacements for aluminum body panels? I e-mailed IHRA about five years ago and was told it was NOT legal. I wish it was legal, fiberglass nose is what $2k? Aluminum nose, $20k? I'd be happy with just a glass hood and scoop and run steel fenders. They could make the fiberglass need to weigh as much as the aluminum to make things fair.

The steel and aluminum front end rules have changed back and forth over the last several years. For a while, the only legal 1964 Belvedere HT Hemi car was with aluminum (Steel was legal, but had to run at the aluminum weight). Then they added the single 4bbl (Circle Track) combo that had the aluminum front end (steel was legal and had to run at the aluminum weight). Somewhere along here they changed the 250 maximum added weight, so it allowed the crossram Race Hemi to run in something other than SS/B(A). Then NHRA came up the stupid idea that all Race Hemi cars had to have the aluminum to be LEGAL. Steel front end parts were ILLEGAL. Fortunately someone at Chrysler worked with NHRA to allow steel to be LEGAL again.

The current Classification Guide lists the following notes for MW and Hemi cars in 1964-5:

426 Race Hemi cars with 2 carbs were available from factory with either steel or aluminum components (fenders, hood & scoop) depending on plant supply at the time motor installed in car.

426 Race Hemi cars with 1 carb were available from factory with steel components (fenders & hood) with the addition of steel or aluminum hood scoop..

426 Wedge Al component car required to have aluminum hood with hood scoop, & both aluminum front fenders to be classified as aluminum component car

I doubt that Chrysler originally built the cars with all thread and wing nuts to hold the hoods on, but I've seen the photos of cars with them from "back-in-the-day".

[X-TECH MAN]

[QUOTE=mr340;145564]First, I'd like to know who at IHRA will approve fiberglass replacements for aluminum body panels? I e-mailed IHRA about five years ago and was told it was NOT legal. I wish it was legal, fiberglass nose is what $2k? Aluminum nose, $20k? I'd be happy with just a glass hood and scoop and run steel fenders. They could make the fiberglass need to weigh as much as the aluminum to make things fair.

I personally was involved along with Jack McCormick in getting the glass front components approved. It was about 8 or 9 years ago and Mike Baker (IHRA National Tech Director) Ok'ed it. It was a quality glass front end and not like a typical bracket car fiberglass. You need to talk directly to Mike Baker as far as I know the ruling still stands. I dont remember the companys name (I can find out) but I know of one Max Wedge car that uses this glass in IHRA stock elim.

To many photos and text documenting the 4 hold down pins with wing nuts on the 1964 cars to doubt these cars being assembly line produced that way. A lot can happen in 45+ years.

[X-TECH MAN]

OK....I guess it was to long ago for anyone to have the correct facts and who really cares ....lol. MoPar built some outstanding cars from 1962 to 1971 and that period of time "Win on Sunday/Sell on Monday" will never happen again.

[John Lang]

I was wondering if I could us my 65 SS/CA, car and pull the HEMI, and run SS-GT with an older engine combo , such as a 2- 4bbl 383 , as in a 62 Ply or Dodge, what class would it fit, and would i have to eliminate the scoop ? Anybody know ? I don't know the HP of the 383, as in factor ! Let me know ! Or would that the same.as the car at Ennis ? Thanks.........John

[treessavoy]

In 1964 Holiday Chry/ply had a hemi savoy sitting in the show room, three of my friends bought it to race at Atco and other strips in Jersey........It did NOT come with hood pins. It was the same as the Max Wedge except for the different scoop.

Many racers put pins in them but the 1964 Dodge Hemi car that I bought also did not have hood pins only light weight springs.

JimR

[Jeff Teuton]

John, I think that will work. And I don't think there has been a definitive answer on the hood scoops. For sure if the body (like my 68 Hemi Cuda clone) and my GT/EA 383 70 Challenger Cuda which came with a fresh air system would be ok. Or like a Hemi Cuda/Clone with the new Drag Pak engine which has a scoop, should be ok. I think the 383 2/4bbl is about 325 hp or somethin like that. That is what Jerry Bennett is running in D/SA with that great car.

[lstanford]

I raced a 1963 and 1964 Dodge with the 383 single 4 and dual inline 4 back in the day. The single 4 was rated at 330 HP and the dual inline 4 was rated at 335HP. The dual 4 was a dealer installed option. Jim Nichols (his father was Byron Nichols, President of Dodge division) had a 1962 that was supposed to be factory built. Chrysler execs and their offspring had a lot of one offs built in the company car garage. The most outrageous was Al Eckstrands 1962 Chrysler 300 built with a 4 speed manual trans and 413 cross ram. The trans was some kind of a French unit. Supposedly several cars were built. Al's was the only one I ever saw. It was used to set a speed record in the Flying Mile at Daytona. I guess you could build any combination with a B block and say it was factory built because somebody probably built it, back in the day, A lot of theses combinations ran Woodward Ave. and cleaned house.

[DeuceCoupe]

Originally Posted by James L Miller

First, I'd like to know who at IHRA will approve fiberglass replacements for aluminum body panels? I e-mailed IHRA about five years ago and was told it was NOT legal. I wish it was legal, fiberglass nose is what $2k? Aluminum nose, $20k? I'd be happy with just a glass hood and scoop and run steel fenders. They could make the fiberglass need to weigh as much as the aluminum to make things fair.

The steel and aluminum front end rules have changed back and forth over the last several years. For a while, the only legal 1964 Belvedere HT Hemi car was with aluminum (Steel was legal, but had to run at the aluminum weight). Then they added the single 4bbl (Circle Track) combo that had the aluminum front end (steel was legal and had to run at the aluminum weight). Somewhere along here they changed the 250 maximum added weight, so it allowed the crossram Race Hemi to run in something other than SS/B(A). Then NHRA came up the stupid idea that all Race Hemi cars had to have the aluminum to be LEGAL. Steel front end parts were ILLEGAL. Fortunately someone at Chrysler worked with NHRA to allow steel to be LEGAL again.

The current Classification Guide lists the following notes for MW and Hemi cars in 1964-5:

426 Race Hemi cars with 2 carbs were available from factory with either steel or aluminum components (fenders, hood & scoop) depending on plant supply at the time motor installed in car.

426 Race Hemi cars with 1 carb were available from factory with steel components (fenders & hood) with the addition of steel or aluminum hood scoop..

426 Wedge Al component car required to have aluminum hood with hood scoop, & both aluminum front fenders to be classified as aluminum component car

I doubt that Chrysler originally built the cars with all thread and wing nuts to hold the hoods on, but I've seen the photos of cars with them from "back-in-the-day".

I know this is an old thread but I’m trying to find out whatcars ran back circa 1969-71 in W/P=7.00 class (69=SS/D and 70-71 SS/C).


I’ve concluded they were Hemi cars (not Max Wedge) but theHemi-8v cars are up in the W/P=6.00 class (1964 cars) or W/P=6.50 class (1965),UNLESS:


1. They ran the Hemi-8v factoredat 500hp but at steel or heavy weight, or


2. They ran the aluminum(64) or A990 (65) weight, but with the NASCAR style Hemi-4v factored at 470hpor so.


Jim Miller’s text implies that first none of the above wasallowed, which makes sense, as these W/P=7.00 Hemi cars don’t appear until the1969-70-71 race years near as I can tell. Then Jim says first the cars ran atthe lighter weight (aluminum in 1964 cars, A990 in 1965 cars), but could runthe Hemi-4v.


The Hemi-8v in the heavier standard steel body cars would fitthe W/P=7.00 class but these combos are not listed in the current NHRA files.


So starting in 1969 race year, these cars win in the 7.00 classes, both 1964 and 1965 model cars.


Eg were these heavy Hemi-8v cars or light Hemi-4v cars?


McCandless, 1964 Dodge won SS/D=7.00 at 1969 Indy
Mancini 1964 Dodge, won SS/DA=7.00 1969 Indy
Wren, 1964 Plymouth, SS/DA=7.00 R/U at 1969 Indy
Costa, 1965 Plymouth, won SS/CA=7.00 at 1971 Indy

Mopar Steve on pg 2 says:
“Dave Wren's car was a steelnose Hardtop built for SS/DA in 1969. I spoke with Dave Koffel (who built thecar for Wren) in detail about this car. Wren broke in the finals and RonMancini was given the Runner Up finish at the Nationals that year with his SS/DAsteel nose Hemi '64 Dodge.

For what it's worth, I own the Mancini Dodge. I have researched the 4 steelnose Hemi's that were built for SS/CA and SS/DA in 1969 and can confirm theabove as fact.”

That would imply that theSS/DA=7.00 and SS/CA=7.00 cars (Mancini and Wren at least) were steel cars and therefore Hemi-8v and not Hemi-4v cars.

So when these cars ran back in 1969-71, were these cars “heavy” 8v Hemi or “light” 4v Hemi?


Did the rules get changed in 1969 so they could run?
Because the 1964-65 Hemi cars in the W/P=7.00 classes don't seem to appear until 1969.

[Steve Stasko]

Mancini, Wren, and McCandless were all steel nose, 12.5:1 Race Hemi's with two four barrels. There is a photo of Mancini's car from Dallas that year, where you can clearly see two Holley's on a crossram. The Mancini and McCandless cars were 440 Sedans, Wren's car was a Hardtop Fury.

Dave Koffel told me that he gave the direction for these cars to be built for these classes. He also stated that the car Herb built was slated to be driven by Vaughn Currie.

Chrysler submitted bogus paperwork to NHRA to get these cars legalized with those combinations, as none were ever built on the assembly line in those trims. The Mancini car was an original 318 car, the Wren car was a 383, and I am unsure of what Herb built the other car out of.

That being said, where did you find class results for Indy in 1969? I was always under the impression that there was no class contested, and that they took the fastest cars for the Eliminator that year?

[DeuceCoupe]

Originally Posted by Steve Stasko

Mancini, Wren, and McCandless were all steel nose, 12.5:1 Race Hemi's with two four barrels. There is a photo of Mancini's car from Dallas that year, where you can clearly see two Holley's on a crossram. The Mancini and McCandless cars were 440 Sedans, Wren's car was a Hardtop Fury.

Dave Koffel told me that he gave the direction for these cars to be built for these classes. He also stated that the car Herb built was slated to be driven by Vaughn Currie.

Chrysler submitted bogus paperwork to NHRA to get these cars legalized with those combinations, as none were ever built on the assembly line in those trims. The Mancini car was an original 318 car, the Wren car was a 383, and I am unsure of what Herb built the other car out of.

That being said, where did you find class results for Indy in 1969? I was always under the impression that there was no class contested, and that they took the fastest cars for the Eliminator that year?

Steve,
Thanks so much for that quick reply- that clarifies it all.


Drag News 6 Sep 1969 pg13 & 20 lists:
"In Super Stock qualifying these cars came out on top"
Then for each class they list a car, a 2nd, (which I took as R/U), and an Alternate (which I'd assume was not the R/U but the car the winner had beat just before the R/U).
Kinda strangely worded so what you said makes sense.


Basically the Hemi cars won all the upper classes 1-2-3, and the 428CJ cars won all the lower classes 1-2-3, with just a couple 427 Fords and Chevys and Shirley Shahan's AMX mixed in there. That was when the 428 "Canadian CJ" heads first appeared and it showed. And then I got confused about all those Hemi combos.


x2 on the bogus paperwork back then - I've seen Ford's letter to NHRA stating that you could get a 427 Ford with auto trans. No way. Other than the very few T-Bolts and Lightweight Galaxies, they were all 4-speeds. But the 427 LoRiser was more competitive with an auto trans behind it, hence the Ford letter.