Heads-Up Runs

[JrRacer2033]

Originally Posted by Mike Carr

I posted this a few weeks ago, to another person who thought lifting early was "not racing".

"Flat out racing is great, but sometimes you have to dump to protect. I'll use the following example, Jim. Say early in the year, you and I have a heads-up run in, say, A/SA. You have a fairly common car (I'll use a '64 Fury Max Wedge as an example). I have a car that is pretty rare (say a '64 or '65 Nascar single 4 Hemi). You and I run Class somewhere early in the year. We both run flat out, both running 10.0's., and you get the win. You have plenty of other cars in your Class to bring the average for your combination down. I don't So, for running flat out, I get hit with HP, you don't, and now I'm further behind. Which can hurt later in the year, especially when it comes time for Indy, trying to win Class or even qualifying. It's this scenario, why racers, when at 1000' they realize they aren't going to win, will dump to protect their HP. It's not just Stock and S/S. David Rampy has done the same thing in Comp with his A/EA Bantam over the years. If he knows he won't get there (or even if he think he will but knows he'll kill the Index if he does), he'll dump, save the Index, to give himself a better chance down the road at winning. After 70+ National Event wins, I'd say Rampy's idea is a pretty smart one."

You WANT the power to go fast and/or to win a heads-up, but also have to be smart about how/when to USE it.

So my next question then, when would you people classify an acceptable time to run it flat out? Indy Class and thats it?

[treessavoy]

Originally Posted by JrRacer2033

So my next question then, when would you people classify an acceptable time to run it flat out? Indy Class and thats it?

Once again you missed the point because of the current mindset.

You run flat out EVERY time you race, that's drag racing!

JimR

[Mike Carr]

Originally Posted by JrRacer2033

So my next question then, when would you people classify an acceptable time to run it flat out? Indy Class and thats it?

JIm is right, mostly. Every run (heads-up runs, anyway) should be flat out, to me. But, if I'm in a heads-up with someone, and know that my car can run -1.15 (or more) and am behind with no chance to catch my opponent, I, and most anyone, is going to lift, try and save the HP factor for my combo, and hope my opponent does run fast enough to get hit. I, and 90+% of the other racers out there, are NOT going to take a HP hit AND lose the race. It's like losing twice in one race.

[Mike Carr]

I should add, to further answer your question, that most Class racers are not flat-out in Eliminations. The car is tuned back, in "bracket mode", to be more consistant. The only time a car is tuned up to go fast is Class Eliminations (any race, but Indy especially), heads-up runs in the Eliminator, Record Runs, or if they want to qualify near the top to get a favorable spot on the ladder. A racer once wrote that their car would become "evil" at time when set up on "kill" (huge wheelies, etc), so most tune them back for the shoe-polish part of the Eliminator. Example, having an A/SA that would go 10.40's in "bracket mode", and run 10.0's in all-out mode. The car would tend to repeat more consistantly running 10.40's, hence that reason.

[JrRacer2033]

Thank you Mike for the clarification! I've got one situation I would like to hear your thoughts on. So lets say you have someone covered (or believe to have someone covered), you play it safe on the tree and get "treed" by .05, would you risk running -1.15 knowing you would receive HP to get back around them to get the round win or just dump and race another weekend?

[Mike Carr]

Originally Posted by JrRacer2033

Thank you Mike for the clarification! I've got one situation I would like to hear your thoughts on. So lets say you have someone covered (or believe to have someone covered), you play it safe on the tree and get "treed" by .05, would you risk running -1.15 knowing you would receive HP to get back around them to get the round win or just dump and race another weekend?

Yeah, I probably would. -1.15 won't get you hurt *too* bad. The rule was you had to run -1.15 twice (at different Nat'l events), or you, plus one other racer with your combo (at that or another Nat'l) both had to run -1.15 to triggger an evaluation, and if that particular combo averaged more than one second under during that half of the season (all data goes into first or second half of the season), it would then get HP. Which favors a combination with many cars running it ('67-'69 Camaros with a 396 or 350, '80 something 305 Camaros, for example). There could be two slow cars for every fast one, and the combination would not average a second under, and be safe from getting hit with horsepower. A one of a kind or rare combo, like those I have raced, where there are few or no one to bring the average down, could get hit with HP more easily). The rules were changed slightly for this season, and one racer earned HP by making two runs of more than -1.15 at the same Nat'l. He was the only racer with that combo, at the only Nat'l he ran all year, and received HP, so the rules may have changed. However, if a racer runs more than -1.40 at ANY race (Nat'l, Divisional, Nat'l Open, during qualifying, Class or Eliminator), they get automatic HP the Monday after the race, and more then they would if the combination averaged, say, -1.18 for that particular half of the year. So with that long, complex explanation, YES, I would run -1.15 and take the win and take the chance of maybe getting hit, as long as I got the Wally at the end of the day. If I knew I was going to go -1.20 on that run and STILL NOT WIN, I would lift and live to fight another day.

[Bob Mulry]

Originally Posted by Mike Carr

Yeah, I probably would. -1.15 won't get you hurt *too* bad. The rule was you had to run -1.15 twice (at different Nat'l events), or you, plus one other racer with your combo (at that or another Nat'l) both had to run -1.15 to triggger an evaluation, and if that particular combo averaged more than one second under during that half of the season (all data goes into first or second half of the season), it would then get HP. Which favors a combination with many cars running it ('67-'69 Camaros with a 396 or 350, '80 something 305 Camaros, for example). There could be two slow cars for every fast one, and the combination would not average a second under, and be safe from getting hit with horsepower. A one of a kind or rare combo, like those I have raced, where there are few or no one to bring the average down, could get hit with HP more easily). The rules were changed slightly for this season, and one racer earned HP by making two runs of more than -1.15 at the same Nat'l. He was the only racer with that combo, at the only Nat'l he ran all year, and received HP, so the rules may have changed. However, if a racer runs more than -1.40 at ANY race (Nat'l, Divisional, Nat'l Open, during qualifying, Class or Eliminator), they get automatic HP the Monday after the race, and more then they would if the combination averaged, say, -1.18 for that particular half of the year. So with that long, complex explanation, YES, I would run -1.15 and take the win and take the chance of maybe getting hit, as long as I got the Wally at the end of the day. If I knew I was going to go -1.20 on that run and STILL NOT WIN, I would lift and live to fight another day.

Mikey, Mikey, Mikey

I guess that you missed the NHRA change regarding the setting of AHFS triggers for 2009.

NHRA omitted from the AHFS the statement that is posted on their web-site in the Competition Section "Only the quickest run of each event is recorded for each competitor"

Get killer air at 1 (one) National Event at sea level, run 2 (two) runs that are -1.15 or quicker under and you have instant trigger.

I guess that NHRA figured that the best way to keep the Stock & Super Stock racers informed of updates to the system was by omitting certain words to completely change the way that the AHFS is operated.

In my opinion that is a perversion of the process.

What ever happened to full disclosure and a list posted on the NHRA web-site of the year to year changes to the AHFS???

It just makes me feel that the NHRA is our adversary and not our partner, with always trying to get over on us.

Kind of gives you that warm fuzzy feeling when you hear "I'm from the NHRA and I'm here to help you"

But I suggest that if you hear that, look over your shoulder and don't bend over.

Bob


Disclaimer:
NHRA has many fine and upstanding employees of high moral fiber but these are not the people who have established the punitive policies that we have to deal with. Thanks to ALL of the dedicated NHRA employees who against tremendous odds attempt to improve the Drag Racing experience and you know who you are.

[Mike Carr]

Hi Bob. Yeah, I knew they changed something this year, that's why I stated about the car that ran one Nat'l all this year and got hit. It was a V/SA Mopar at Topeka. Qualified #1, and got hit from that race's data only, which was never like that before. I remember the uproar on this forum in late July after several combos got hit. I also remember reading something about the process changing based on how many cars were involved in the trigger process, in a sliding scale format of how much HP and/or how many cars in the date accumulation will be dished out, but I can't find it now. I agree, if there is a system in place, regardless WHAT it is (AHFS, Grade Points, etc), it should be PUBLISHED, so everyone can see in black and white what the rules are. Hard to play by the rules when one doesn't know what they are. Hope things are well out in California.

[treessavoy]

Originally Posted by Mike Carr

JIm is right, mostly. Every run (heads-up runs, anyway) should be flat out, to me. But, if I'm in a heads-up with someone, and know that my car can run -1.15 (or more) and am behind with no chance to catch my opponent, I, and most anyone, is going to lift, try and save the HP factor for my combo, and hope my opponent does run fast enough to get hit. I, and 90+% of the other racers out there, are NOT going to take a HP hit AND lose the race. It's like losing twice in one race.

Mike,

In that instance you would be right, there is no sense in shooting yourself in the foot on a losing cause.

JimR