CJ OUT at Indy!!

Ed Wright · 09-06-2009, 09:04 AM

Those things make my Firebird look easy. I don't envy them. I pulled the engine this weekend to replace the valve springs.

stage1scott · 09-06-2009, 10:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Longbob

Aren't they on the top of the motor?

yeah, on top all right-and-shoved so far back under the windshield I don't know how guys work on them either!! cooool cars though..................

pro7474 · 09-06-2009, 11:15 AM

The cam gears on these engines are not keyed, so you have to use a set of special locks to position the 4 camshafts and the crankshaft and them you torque the canshaft sprockets on, the camshat and sprockets are a tappered fit. OTC makes a master kit thats does most Fords but the DOHC need another kit that is also by OTC around $300.
Chris

z28camaroman · 09-06-2009, 12:02 PM

The whole situation with Tim Bishop is probably the worst that I've seen in years. NHRA did not do the right thing here. There was nothing wrong with his pistons and this engine was built by one of the most respected engine builders in Stock Eliminator.

What really amazes me is the fact that CP pistons and NHRA are suppose to be on the same page and working in concert together in this world of Stock Eliminator that we live in. Both parties are suppose to know what the other one is doing and wants, but it's 180 degrees the other way! Chaos! No communication skills at all, that's for sure!

When you're dealing with the expenses in getting to Indy, and all it takes to maintain a race car, there is no excuse for what happened here. T. Bishop should be given the class win in this situation. This issue is between CP and NHRA. Not the racer who was legal in all parameters of his engine.

Jerry

Billy Nees · 09-06-2009, 01:09 PM

Jerry, I think that it's terrible what has happened to Tim. I brought this issue (part #s) to techs attention over a year ago. If a piston, pin, rod assy looks and weighs correctly then what difference does it make what part number is on it. I was told they needed a part # for "reference" purposes. As bad as what happened to Tim is I still feel what happened to Don Himes at Indy a few years ago is worse. He won class and was tossed out of the barn because his heads looked "too stock". That is the direct quote.

Ed Wright · 09-06-2009, 07:39 PM

Guess you don't sand the tops of those to equalize the deck! About all you could do is cull through rods for slightly different lengths (not real likely with aftermarket rods) and/or re-size some to shorten them. What a pain if your somewhat anal and like everything dead-nuts. Makes SS engines look easier.

Bite me, Short Bob.

JHeath · 09-06-2009, 09:15 PM

Mike, so it is my understanding that your team's attention to detail is also "illegal?" After all, your engine was once found to be "not correct to specification."

Guess what? These things happen and most of the time nobody ever hears about it. I don't recall seeing a post for you guys, "Voth OUT at KC!!!" The story about Ford sending in the wrong spec is entirely possible and this (small) issue will be resolved, just like most other tech violations.

And in the interest of fair reporting, would you (and many others here) be making such a big deal out of this if it was a supercharged LS7 Camaro or Corvette that got tossed for the same violation?

Just saying.

Rich Biebel · 09-07-2009, 05:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ed Wright

Those things make my Firebird look easy. I don't envy them. I pulled the engine this weekend to replace the valve springs.

Man thats a lot of work to change some springs! I changed mine on the car on my '97 and it was not to difficult but they were stocker springs.......If I had SS type springs it would be a lot tougher but I'd find or make a tool to remove them before I pulled the engine.

bill dedman · 09-07-2009, 06:34 PM

Somebody named "Voth" posted, about Fords, "their racing products have been inferior to GM for many years."

Perhaps you don't remember that when the Pro Stock program (rules) got changed to "all run 500 CID", it was partially because NHRA had grown weary of constantly adding weight to the 351 Cleveland engine during the preceding years, when Pro Stocks were run on a pounds-per cubic inch basis. Before the changeover to 500 cubic inches for everybody occurred, 351 Cleveland engines were required to carry more pounds per cubic inch that any other Pro Stock engine.

During the 1970's, the unprecedented rule that required "Cleveland" engines to carry an EXTRA HALF-POUND PER CUBIC INCH, over and above any other V-8 engine in Modified Eliminator was introduced!

Those canted-valve 351's from Ford had dominated Modfifed Eliminator racing so completely, in the classes they were eligible for, that NHRA added weight to them so the Chevys would have a chance against them. I don't remember how many years that rule was in effect, but there it was...

Maybe you don't remember that, but it happened.

Does that sound like a company whose racing products were "inferior to GM???"

No apologist for Ford, I'm a MoPar guy.... but, facts is facts.

I'll bet Terry remembers it... or, Travis...

treessavoy · 09-07-2009, 07:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bill dedman

Somebody named "Voth" posted, about Fords, "their racing products have been inferior to GM for many years."

Perhaps you don't remember that when the Pro Stock program (rules) got changed to "all run 500 CID", it was partially because NHRA had grown weary of constantly adding weight to the 351 Cleveland engine during the preceding years, when Pro Stocks were run on a pounds-per cubic inch basis. Before the changeover to 500 cubic inches for everybody occurred, 351 Cleveland engines were required to carry more pounds per cubic inch that any other Pro Stock engine.

During the 1970's, the unprecedented rule that required "Cleveland" engines to carry an EXTRA HALF-POUND PER CUBIC INCH, over and above any other V-8 engine in Modified Eliminator was introduced!

Those canted-valve 351's from Ford had dominated Modfifed Eliminator racing so completely, in the classes they were eligible for, that NHRA added weight to them so the Chevys would have a chance against them. I don't remember how many years that rule was in effect, but there it was...

Maybe you don't remember that, but it happened.

Does that sound like a company whose racing products were "inferior to GM???"

No apologist for Ford, I'm a MoPar guy.... but, facts is facts.

I'll bet Terry remembers it...

What Mr. Voth also doesn't know is that NHRA and NASCAR both added so much weight to the Hemi as to make it totally uncompetitive during the pro stock days because chevy was no longer competitive in the class as with NASCAR. Same with Trans Am setting a 302 cubic inch limit knowing that Mopar was the only manufacturer that DIDN'T make an engine that small.

Today, almost all types of racing today are set up for chevy to have the advantage, Ford has taken the challenge and is doing well, MOPAR no longer has the budget to fight the good fight and Pontiac did well on it's own engines for a while.

JimR

09-06-2009, 09:04 AM	#1
Ed Wright Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Sand Springs, OK Posts: 8,132 Likes: 896 Liked 390 Times in 170 Posts	Re: CJ OUT at Indy!! Those things make my Firebird look easy. I don't envy them. I pulled the engine this weekend to replace the valve springs. __________________ Ed Wright 4156 SS/JA

09-06-2009, 11:15 AM	#3
pro7474 Junior Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 52 Likes: 0 Liked 3 Times in 1 Post	Re: CJ OUT at Indy!! The cam gears on these engines are not keyed, so you have to use a set of special locks to position the 4 camshafts and the crankshaft and them you torque the canshaft sprockets on, the camshat and sprockets are a tappered fit. OTC makes a master kit thats does most Fords but the DOHC need another kit that is also by OTC around $300. Chris

09-06-2009, 12:02 PM	#4
z28camaroman Member Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: Eldersburg, MD Posts: 153 Likes: 0 Liked 91 Times in 2 Posts	Re: CJ OUT at Indy!! The whole situation with Tim Bishop is probably the worst that I've seen in years. NHRA did not do the right thing here. There was nothing wrong with his pistons and this engine was built by one of the most respected engine builders in Stock Eliminator. What really amazes me is the fact that CP pistons and NHRA are suppose to be on the same page and working in concert together in this world of Stock Eliminator that we live in. Both parties are suppose to know what the other one is doing and wants, but it's 180 degrees the other way! Chaos! No communication skills at all, that's for sure! When you're dealing with the expenses in getting to Indy, and all it takes to maintain a race car, there is no excuse for what happened here. T. Bishop should be given the class win in this situation. This issue is between CP and NHRA. Not the racer who was legal in all parameters of his engine. Jerry

09-06-2009, 01:09 PM	#5
Billy Nees VIP Member Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: On a hilltop in Pa. Posts: 4,495 Likes: 3,600 Liked 7,745 Times in 1,740 Posts	Re: CJ OUT at Indy!! Jerry, I think that it's terrible what has happened to Tim. I brought this issue (part #s) to techs attention over a year ago. If a piston, pin, rod assy looks and weighs correctly then what difference does it make what part number is on it. I was told they needed a part # for "reference" purposes. As bad as what happened to Tim is I still feel what happened to Don Himes at Indy a few years ago is worse. He won class and was tossed out of the barn because his heads looked "too stock". That is the direct quote. __________________ Billy Nees 1188 STK, SS I'm not spending 100K to win 2K

09-06-2009, 07:39 PM	#6
Ed Wright Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Sand Springs, OK Posts: 8,132 Likes: 896 Liked 390 Times in 170 Posts	Re: CJ OUT at Indy!! Guess you don't sand the tops of those to equalize the deck! About all you could do is cull through rods for slightly different lengths (not real likely with aftermarket rods) and/or re-size some to shorten them. What a pain if your somewhat anal and like everything dead-nuts. Makes SS engines look easier. Bite me, Short Bob. __________________ Ed Wright 4156 SS/JA Last edited by Ed Wright; 09-06-2009 at 07:46 PM.

09-06-2009, 09:15 PM	#7
JHeath Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Minneapolis Posts: 786 Likes: 2,876 Liked 370 Times in 101 Posts	Re: CJ OUT at Indy!! Mike, so it is my understanding that your team's attention to detail is also "illegal?" After all, your engine was once found to be "not correct to specification." Guess what? These things happen and most of the time nobody ever hears about it. I don't recall seeing a post for you guys, "Voth OUT at KC!!!" The story about Ford sending in the wrong spec is entirely possible and this (small) issue will be resolved, just like most other tech violations. And in the interest of fair reporting, would you (and many others here) be making such a big deal out of this if it was a supercharged LS7 Camaro or Corvette that got tossed for the same violation? Just saying. __________________ Jerry Heath I/S '93 Cobra FS/J 2010 Mustang "Ebay CJ"

09-07-2009, 06:34 PM	#9
bill dedman VIP Member Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Conway, AR Posts: 1,739 Likes: 0 Liked 6 Times in 4 Posts	Re: CJ OUT at Indy!! Somebody named "Voth" posted, about Fords, "their racing products have been inferior to GM for many years." Perhaps you don't remember that when the Pro Stock program (rules) got changed to "all run 500 CID", it was partially because NHRA had grown weary of constantly adding weight to the 351 Cleveland engine during the preceding years, when Pro Stocks were run on a pounds-per cubic inch basis. Before the changeover to 500 cubic inches for everybody occurred, 351 Cleveland engines were required to carry more pounds per cubic inch that any other Pro Stock engine. During the 1970's, the unprecedented rule that required "Cleveland" engines to carry an EXTRA HALF-POUND PER CUBIC INCH, over and above any other V-8 engine in Modified Eliminator was introduced! Those canted-valve 351's from Ford had dominated Modfifed Eliminator racing so completely, in the classes they were eligible for, that NHRA added weight to them so the Chevys would have a chance against them. I don't remember how many years that rule was in effect, but there it was... Maybe you don't remember that, but it happened. Does that sound like a company whose racing products were "inferior to GM???" No apologist for Ford, I'm a MoPar guy.... but, facts is facts. I'll bet Terry remembers it... or, Travis... __________________ Bill Last edited by bill dedman; 09-07-2009 at 06:57 PM.

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