new indexes - Page 2

Mike Carr · 10-10-2007, 03:40 PM

[QUOTE=Michael Beard;43488 What does knocking .20 or .50 or .70 off the indexes accomplish exactly? [/QUOTE]

Simple. It helps bring back some performance to two eliminators that were founded as "performance based".

mikev · 10-10-2007, 04:32 PM

Anyone considered they may be doing it to keep stockers from entering a national event (or division race) and running super/stock? A few could still do it, but not as many. Going to look now at another post and see which national events are running stock and/or super stock.

tgriffith · 10-10-2007, 05:28 PM

..

Bryan Worner · 10-10-2007, 05:56 PM

I really want to know how knocking .2 off indexes is going to effect the top qualifiers??? What it is going to do is make those who barely run the index step up their programs just to be able to have a chance at winning a round! Take someone running .2 or less under their index now. Take .2 off their index and they aren't running it anymore. But come time for elims, they must dial their index! Now.....they can't run it, so they are most likely going to get beat! They are going to have to spend more money to run quicker!

What really needs done is the AHFS needs to be changed! Why is their a difference between national events and points races?? 1.40 under for automatic horsepower needs to be scrapped! If we leave the indexes alone......1.25 under anywhere should trigger a review! I mean a single run, not 2 by the same combo, any single run of 1.25 under at any NHRA points earning event (National, Divisional, or Open) should trigger a review at that point in time. Don't wait for the end of a review period either! Take the average of all the runs with that combination...if the average is more than 1 second under they get horsepower! So when someone gets horsepower at one race, then goes out to the very next race and still goes 1.25 under......review it again and hit it again.....instantly! It's bull**** that someone can go to every points race and run 1.30 or better under and not get any horsepower! You can still use 1.15 under for the review periods trigger the way it is now.....but do it at points races too! Keep everything the same across the board!

keith ohanesian · 10-10-2007, 06:14 PM

Wow and this is coming from someone with a soft combo! Sounds like a good idea... I feel bad for someone like Bubka that has a "TRUE" stocker that will not be able to run next year... I guess it just makes us all have to cheat... Right ED?

Myron Piatek · 10-10-2007, 07:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mike Carr

Simple. It helps bring back some performance to two eliminators that were founded as "performance based".

Sorry Mike, but I can't see how it brings back some performance. All it does is force people who can afford to, or barely afford to, spend even more money to go faster and effectively eliminates a lot of potential future racers who can't. Like everyone says, top qualifiers would still be at the top! It seems that many people who want to class race start out with what they can afford and try to at least make the index. Then, as time and resources allow, make their combo faster. But at least they can participate, support the class, buy stuff from contingency sponsors, and enjoy the opportunity to mix it up with the racers they always read about. True, some people may just be content to make the index. But that's a very small percentage. Most want to run faster.

The "performance" is showcased in class eliminations and through those who can afford to show what they got at the top of the qualifying sheet. If someone can afford to feed their ego, fine. But not at the expense of new, less affuent racers or difficult combos that they happen to have. I'm not saying to make it easy to race class, like a bracket race where anyone can run. The indexes do set a minimum, which isn't always easy to achieve, especially for a newbie. Raise the bar too high and you decrease participation, reduce contingency parts sales and give the sanctioning bodies another excuse to consider combining Stock & SS. Putting too much emphasis on "performance" simply makes things more expensive and brings the ones with the deepest pockets to the top, like heads-up classes. Driver "performance" has to be a big part of the equation in the sportsman classes, which is why indexes and dial-ins have helped Stock and SS survive.

tgriffith · 10-10-2007, 07:14 PM

sorry ED,,pulled post off,,,,Ive got a new policy,,,no more arguing

Michael Beard · 10-10-2007, 07:44 PM

Great post, Myron.

Buff Daddy writes: >> It helps bring back some performance to two eliminators that were founded as "performance based".

How's that? So a -1.20 under car is a -1.00 under car, and a .60 under car is a .40 under car. It's all relative, like a barometer. The net effect is nothing except telling a scant few to spend more money or go home. True, there's not many, but it's some, and some of those go on to become the future of our sport. Hopefully you have not forgotten where you came from.

I got started in Stock with what I could afford, and was fairly competitive with the Turismo. Sometimes it was an index runner. I spent money on it, and eventually ran -.45 under. So... now it would be a -.25 under car. It's exactly as much "performance" as it was before. I say again, what has been accomplished? I've got a $20,000 Stocker like everybody else now. Yippee. It's not because of indexes, it's because I wanted to have something that I liked, and felt competitive in. They took .20 or .25 off the CM indexes a few years ago. It didn't make the categories any more "performance". All it did was make one guy change to another combination.

If I take my girlfriend's Cobalt out to a points race, and run under the index, will they lower the indexes another .20 because someone didn't spend enough money to satisfy the country club members? (Then again, it's an $18,000 car, too, right?) LOL

The only way to truly bring "performance" into the equation is to lower the indexes to where half the field or more can't run the indexes, make them so nobody can run them so you end up with Comp-style racing, or do something to raise the likelihood of heads-up runs. But no, people clam right up. They only want to set the indexes and AHFS triggers just outside of what *they* run.

Just my opinion,

Jeff Lee · 10-10-2007, 08:00 PM

Arizona Nationals: 1987 (Presently the CSK Nationals). Stock R/U: Joe Elias. Index:12.95K/SA - '77 Aspen 360/175~265 at the time.
Best ET in qualifying and eliminations: 13.07

Joe didn't use one ounce of shoe polish, the tower just dialed him on the index. He tree'd everyone and did what he had to do on the stripe. Lost in the final after tree'ing the opponent. Carb developed a float problem causing it to run very rich and would not pull high gear, loosing in the final round.

Any other problems that are "impossible" to deal with?

SS Engine Guy · 10-10-2007, 08:34 PM

I thought this was already a done deal as far as Len's post a few weeks ago concerning changes to expect in 08'. Apparantly so did some others as I lost some work to be done and today they are calling asking to hold a place for them until something is decided. This the kind of BS that is keeping this S/SS class in a constant mess. First off the voting is BS. 3 choices and both concern an index reduction, the other just leave the mess the way it is. How about a 4th? Install a panel to review performances based on et. vs mph. And add or subtract HP accordingly. Too simple and far too accurate. Also what about this spec button deal? My trans guy says that "some" racers already know what will be allowed and have transmissions already done and are already using one of the "buttons" that will be legal.
I agree with those who think that lowering the indexes dosen't change a thing. It dosen't. Simple math. Yes WAY too many things have been "allowed" which should have gotten the offending racers time off but instead it was revised to a rule change. A rule change which resulted in a performance gain and more money to spend to keep up. More BS and a lack of sanctioning bodies inforcing their OWN rules and a lack of letting the tech guys do their job.
Several have expressed that these are performance based classes. They used to be. But that was when the average racer built most of his own stuff and was mechanically inclined. And you went thru a stringent tech inspection at every race. Also most of the time the winner and ru pulled a head in the early morning hours. Like it or not that is the way S/SS started out.
AHFS will NEVER work until every run down the track counts. And even then it still needs the human element to be even close to accurate.
Like I have said before, 50% car 50% driver/crew. Run off the index (or record) on a pro tree. Strict rule interpretation and enforcement. Grey area? Shouldn't be one if the rule book wasn't written like a legal document with loopholes to use as the situation arises. Or just factor from a performance base and leave things like they are. Its is already on the computer. Simple?
As for the rule change or interpretation of the month: Total worthless BS. plain and simple.

Why can't we get information in a timely manner? This is the time of year that racers are finishing up their seasons and planning stratagies/and or combos for the coming year. It would be nice to know what kind of button will be legal in SS for 08'. It has apparantly been voted on or opinions solicited. How long is this going to take? Feb. 08'? That has been the norm for the past few years.

10-10-2007, 03:40 PM	#11
Mike Carr VIP Member Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: Enon Valley PA Posts: 1,650 Likes: 234 Liked 83 Times in 37 Posts	Re: new indexes [QUOTE=Michael Beard;43488 What does knocking .20 or .50 or .70 off the indexes accomplish exactly? [/QUOTE] Simple. It helps bring back some performance to two eliminators that were founded as "performance based". __________________ Mike Carr, Tri-State S/SS Association President Looking for 2015 S/SS Race Sponsors Contact me if interested buffdaddy_1302@hotmail.com (724) 510-5912

10-10-2007, 04:32 PM	#12
mikev Junior Member Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Florida Posts: 22 Likes: 0 Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Re: new indexes Anyone considered they may be doing it to keep stockers from entering a national event (or division race) and running super/stock? A few could still do it, but not as many. Going to look now at another post and see which national events are running stock and/or super stock.

10-10-2007, 05:28 PM	#13
tgriffith Member Join Date: May 2002 Posts: 187 Likes: 0 Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Re: new indexes .. Last edited by tgriffith; 10-10-2007 at 05:37 PM.

10-10-2007, 05:56 PM	#14
Bryan Worner Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Duncannon, PA Posts: 819 Likes: 131 Liked 478 Times in 80 Posts	Re: new indexes I really want to know how knocking .2 off indexes is going to effect the top qualifiers??? What it is going to do is make those who barely run the index step up their programs just to be able to have a chance at winning a round! Take someone running .2 or less under their index now. Take .2 off their index and they aren't running it anymore. But come time for elims, they must dial their index! Now.....they can't run it, so they are most likely going to get beat! They are going to have to spend more money to run quicker! What really needs done is the AHFS needs to be changed! Why is their a difference between national events and points races?? 1.40 under for automatic horsepower needs to be scrapped! If we leave the indexes alone......1.25 under anywhere should trigger a review! I mean a single run, not 2 by the same combo, any single run of 1.25 under at any NHRA points earning event (National, Divisional, or Open) should trigger a review at that point in time. Don't wait for the end of a review period either! Take the average of all the runs with that combination...if the average is more than 1 second under they get horsepower! So when someone gets horsepower at one race, then goes out to the very next race and still goes 1.25 under......review it again and hit it again.....instantly! It's bull**** that someone can go to every points race and run 1.30 or better under and not get any horsepower! You can still use 1.15 under for the review periods trigger the way it is now.....but do it at points races too! Keep everything the same across the board!

10-10-2007, 06:14 PM	#15
keith ohanesian Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Posts: 392 Likes: 0 Liked 1 Time in 1 Post	Re: new indexes Wow and this is coming from someone with a soft combo! Sounds like a good idea... I feel bad for someone like Bubka that has a "TRUE" stocker that will not be able to run next year... I guess it just makes us all have to cheat... Right ED? __________________ No prep is king

10-10-2007, 07:14 PM	#17
tgriffith Member Join Date: May 2002 Posts: 187 Likes: 0 Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Re: new indexes sorry ED,,pulled post off,,,,Ive got a new policy,,,no more arguing

10-10-2007, 07:44 PM	#18
Michael Beard VIP Member Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Columbus, OH Posts: 4,060 Likes: 0 Liked 13 Times in 9 Posts	Re: new indexes Great post, Myron. Buff Daddy writes: >> It helps bring back some performance to two eliminators that were founded as "performance based". How's that? So a -1.20 under car is a -1.00 under car, and a .60 under car is a .40 under car. It's all relative, like a barometer. The net effect is nothing except telling a scant few to spend more money or go home. True, there's not many, but it's some, and some of those go on to become the future of our sport. Hopefully you have not forgotten where you came from. I got started in Stock with what I could afford, and was fairly competitive with the Turismo. Sometimes it was an index runner. I spent money on it, and eventually ran -.45 under. So... now it would be a -.25 under car. It's exactly as much "performance" as it was before. I say again, what has been accomplished? I've got a $20,000 Stocker like everybody else now. Yippee. It's not because of indexes, it's because I wanted to have something that I liked, and felt competitive in. They took .20 or .25 off the CM indexes a few years ago. It didn't make the categories any more "performance". All it did was make one guy change to another combination. If I take my girlfriend's Cobalt out to a points race, and run under the index, will they lower the indexes another .20 because someone didn't spend enough money to satisfy the country club members? (Then again, it's an $18,000 car, too, right?) LOL The only way to truly bring "performance" into the equation is to lower the indexes to where half the field or more can't run the indexes, make them so nobody can run them so you end up with Comp-style racing, or do something to raise the likelihood of heads-up runs. But no, people clam right up. They only want to set the indexes and AHFS triggers just outside of what they run. Just my opinion, __________________ Michael Beard - NHRA/IHRA 3216 S/SS

10-10-2007, 08:00 PM	#19
Jeff Lee VIP Member Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Anthem, Arizona Posts: 2,766 Likes: 0 Liked 3 Times in 3 Posts	Re: new indexes Arizona Nationals: 1987 (Presently the CSK Nationals). Stock R/U: Joe Elias. Index:12.95K/SA - '77 Aspen 360/175~265 at the time. Best ET in qualifying and eliminations: 13.07 Joe didn't use one ounce of shoe polish, the tower just dialed him on the index. He tree'd everyone and did what he had to do on the stripe. Lost in the final after tree'ing the opponent. Carb developed a float problem causing it to run very rich and would not pull high gear, loosing in the final round. Any other problems that are "impossible" to deal with? __________________ Jeff Lee 7494 D/S '70 AMX

10-10-2007, 08:34 PM	#20
SS Engine Guy Member Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: usa Posts: 256 Likes: 1 Liked 1 Time in 1 Post	Re: new indexes I thought this was already a done deal as far as Len's post a few weeks ago concerning changes to expect in 08'. Apparantly so did some others as I lost some work to be done and today they are calling asking to hold a place for them until something is decided. This the kind of BS that is keeping this S/SS class in a constant mess. First off the voting is BS. 3 choices and both concern an index reduction, the other just leave the mess the way it is. How about a 4th? Install a panel to review performances based on et. vs mph. And add or subtract HP accordingly. Too simple and far too accurate. Also what about this spec button deal? My trans guy says that "some" racers already know what will be allowed and have transmissions already done and are already using one of the "buttons" that will be legal. I agree with those who think that lowering the indexes dosen't change a thing. It dosen't. Simple math. Yes WAY too many things have been "allowed" which should have gotten the offending racers time off but instead it was revised to a rule change. A rule change which resulted in a performance gain and more money to spend to keep up. More BS and a lack of sanctioning bodies inforcing their OWN rules and a lack of letting the tech guys do their job. Several have expressed that these are performance based classes. They used to be. But that was when the average racer built most of his own stuff and was mechanically inclined. And you went thru a stringent tech inspection at every race. Also most of the time the winner and ru pulled a head in the early morning hours. Like it or not that is the way S/SS started out. AHFS will NEVER work until every run down the track counts. And even then it still needs the human element to be even close to accurate. Like I have said before, 50% car 50% driver/crew. Run off the index (or record) on a pro tree. Strict rule interpretation and enforcement. Grey area? Shouldn't be one if the rule book wasn't written like a legal document with loopholes to use as the situation arises. Or just factor from a performance base and leave things like they are. Its is already on the computer. Simple? As for the rule change or interpretation of the month: Total worthless BS. plain and simple. Why can't we get information in a timely manner? This is the time of year that racers are finishing up their seasons and planning stratagies/and or combos for the coming year. It would be nice to know what kind of button will be legal in SS for 08'. It has apparantly been voted on or opinions solicited. How long is this going to take? Feb. 08'? That has been the norm for the past few years.