Team Orders

John DiBartolomeo · 12-10-2019, 06:33 PM

But the question in all of this is: Why are people up in arms over this? It’s called teamwork which according to Wikipedia is: the collaborative effort of a group to achieve a common goal.

https://dragracingedge.com/the-blog/team-orders/

Dave Muller · 12-10-2019, 11:40 PM

I think people get upset because it's not racing, it's more like WWE. People pay to see the cars race. It wasn't too bad when there are just a couple of small teams but when you can have an all Don Schumacher semi-final, for instance, people should be able to have confidence that they're seeing two real races in the semis and the final, not just an automotive ballet.

Staged results can kill the sport if the fans lose cofidence.

Edit: to clarify, this is only about taking a dive for a teammate. I see nothing wrong with trying to get a particular opponent on the ladder to have a shot at a championship.

Bobby DiDomenico · 12-11-2019, 09:40 AM

It seems to be two completely different scenarios John, if I read it correctly:

In both Force team examples, both cars that need to win do win against a teammate?

In the KB Racing example the car that needs to win loses to a teammate?

In the other KB example a team car qualifies so it has to run full out to beat another team's car which is in contention to win the championship over their team?

So in both examples for KB Racing they run full out, let the cards fall where they may correct? Don't see how the fans would ever question that.

HawkBrosMav · 12-11-2019, 11:40 AM

I think you're comparing 2 different situation in the Qualifying to race a certain opponent and "taking a dive" or not when racing a teammate. I also think you are comparing team sports to an individual sport that happens to have cars funded by the same manager..

I'll leave my opinion on the Qualifying situation very short.. Anyone who has competed for a close championship has had to consider their options as far as "chasing" their close competitor or not. You either let it fall to chance and only run said person if you have to or you take things into your own hands and attempt as best you can to run them and beat them.. If you have a buddy offer to do it what's the difference.. other than less risk on your half if you aren't confident you are going to win yourself... The race still happens and you have to perform for your desired outcome to come true.. The "chased" may not like the results, but they also might win so it could benefit them as well. either way no round was handed to any competitor everything was earned by the winning party.

On my second opinion comparing team to individual sports I think Golf or NASCAR are the only other major sports that can compare to NHRA in some ways. There is a regular season/playoff format and a bunch of individuals all vying for the same goal. NHRA and NASCAR have cars funded by the same owner and may in some ways act as teams with information sharing and personnel, BUT they all compete against each other in competition aiming at winning the race themselves. Golf probably has some guys that are great friends sponsored by the same big company that share info and talk shop, but again when they hit the course their play is not going to be aimed at improving the finish of a buddy without them finishing behind them in the standings.

The teams sports that you compare in your article don't work this way.. If the batter bunting doesn't look out for the runner on 3rds best interest He himself cannot win.. it takes the whole team unit for success. If he plays poorly all teammates lose. If he plays well there is a chance the whole team does well.. but they could also stink.. unless you convince all teammates to play poorly the outcome really can't be know.. And when teams have done this in team sports in the past they are chastised and forever remembered as ruining the game.. it's why players can't bet on the outcomes of their own sport.. especially their own team..

You can't compare a batter sacrificing himself as an out to score a teammate to a golfer shanking a drive into the woods so he doesn't shoot a lower score than his friend. One is a tactic to benefit ones self and team through strategy and one is manipulating the integrity of the sport it self and the word competition.. one is done in the spirit of the rules and with the intent of success and the other is done to intentionally hinder one success so another individual will now succeed.. One is done with the hopes it's enough for the team he is on to succeed in winning a single game and the other is done in hopes that it's enough to win an entire season long achievement all in one at bat..

We all know these things happen.. There are people like yourself that don't view "gifting" rounds as a bad thing. I don't think any less of you or anyone else that may feel this way.. but to write an article basically justifying it as "Team" tactics seemingly ignores the spirit of our rules system and the fact that we all compete on an individual level. We can root for family and friends success all we want, but as soon as we start losing intentionally because somehow that is being selfless in helping them achieve a goal we start becoming a car show vs an actual competition..

Just my opinions as I stated some will agree and some with not..

Brad

Bobby DiDomenico · 12-11-2019, 04:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HawkBrosMav

There is a regular season/playoff format and a bunch of individuals all vying for the same goal. NHRA and NASCAR have cars funded by the same owner and may in some ways act as teams with information sharing and personnel, BUT they all compete against each other in competition aiming at winning the race themselves.
Brad

Are NHRA and NASCAR the only sports where you compete for a championship in playoffs that then also contain "eliminated" teams who can beat you?

HawkBrosMav · 12-11-2019, 07:09 PM

I would venture to throw out a yes to this question but only because I cannot think of anything else that it would even work with...

I've been a huge proponent to eliminating this nuance from NHRA it'd be very simple to do and still give the other cars TV time for sponsors and even incorporate a "competition" for the non chasers.. I've also argued strongly that less than 10 cars should be qualifying for the chase... went 62.5% of the field qualifies for the playoffs you have a problem.. NASCAR only qualifies roughly 28% of the field... makes no sense that a guy could literally win 1 or 2 1st round races all year a qualify if the cards fell correctly.. that shouldn't even be a long shot potential.. But this is all for another topic than the one at hand I feel like.

Brad

12-10-2019, 06:33 PM	#1
John DiBartolomeo Member Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Beaver Springs, PA Posts: 494 Likes: 1 Liked 1,282 Times in 159 Posts	Team Orders But the question in all of this is: Why are people up in arms over this? It’s called teamwork which according to Wikipedia is: the collaborative effort of a group to achieve a common goal. https://dragracingedge.com/the-blog/team-orders/ Attached Thumbnails __________________ John DiBartolomeo DRC Race Products DragRacingActionOnline.com

12-10-2019, 11:40 PM	#2
Dave Muller Member Join Date: Apr 2014 Location: Mesa, AZ Posts: 497 Likes: 162 Liked 223 Times in 73 Posts	Re: Team Orders I think people get upset because it's not racing, it's more like WWE. People pay to see the cars race. It wasn't too bad when there are just a couple of small teams but when you can have an all Don Schumacher semi-final, for instance, people should be able to have confidence that they're seeing two real races in the semis and the final, not just an automotive ballet. Staged results can kill the sport if the fans lose cofidence. Edit: to clarify, this is only about taking a dive for a teammate. I see nothing wrong with trying to get a particular opponent on the ladder to have a shot at a championship. Last edited by Dave Muller; 12-11-2019 at 03:31 PM.

12-11-2019, 09:40 AM	#3
Bobby DiDomenico Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2002 Posts: 923 Likes: 101 Liked 101 Times in 52 Posts	Re: Team Orders It seems to be two completely different scenarios John, if I read it correctly: In both Force team examples, both cars that need to win do win against a teammate? In the KB Racing example the car that needs to win loses to a teammate? In the other KB example a team car qualifies so it has to run full out to beat another team's car which is in contention to win the championship over their team? So in both examples for KB Racing they run full out, let the cards fall where they may correct? Don't see how the fans would ever question that. Last edited by Bobby DiDomenico; 12-11-2019 at 09:54 AM.

12-11-2019, 11:40 AM	#4
HawkBrosMav Member Join Date: Apr 2009 Posts: 362 Likes: 6 Liked 302 Times in 73 Posts	Re: Team Orders I think you're comparing 2 different situation in the Qualifying to race a certain opponent and "taking a dive" or not when racing a teammate. I also think you are comparing team sports to an individual sport that happens to have cars funded by the same manager.. I'll leave my opinion on the Qualifying situation very short.. Anyone who has competed for a close championship has had to consider their options as far as "chasing" their close competitor or not. You either let it fall to chance and only run said person if you have to or you take things into your own hands and attempt as best you can to run them and beat them.. If you have a buddy offer to do it what's the difference.. other than less risk on your half if you aren't confident you are going to win yourself... The race still happens and you have to perform for your desired outcome to come true.. The "chased" may not like the results, but they also might win so it could benefit them as well. either way no round was handed to any competitor everything was earned by the winning party. On my second opinion comparing team to individual sports I think Golf or NASCAR are the only other major sports that can compare to NHRA in some ways. There is a regular season/playoff format and a bunch of individuals all vying for the same goal. NHRA and NASCAR have cars funded by the same owner and may in some ways act as teams with information sharing and personnel, BUT they all compete against each other in competition aiming at winning the race themselves. Golf probably has some guys that are great friends sponsored by the same big company that share info and talk shop, but again when they hit the course their play is not going to be aimed at improving the finish of a buddy without them finishing behind them in the standings. The teams sports that you compare in your article don't work this way.. If the batter bunting doesn't look out for the runner on 3rds best interest He himself cannot win.. it takes the whole team unit for success. If he plays poorly all teammates lose. If he plays well there is a chance the whole team does well.. but they could also stink.. unless you convince all teammates to play poorly the outcome really can't be know.. And when teams have done this in team sports in the past they are chastised and forever remembered as ruining the game.. it's why players can't bet on the outcomes of their own sport.. especially their own team.. You can't compare a batter sacrificing himself as an out to score a teammate to a golfer shanking a drive into the woods so he doesn't shoot a lower score than his friend. One is a tactic to benefit ones self and team through strategy and one is manipulating the integrity of the sport it self and the word competition.. one is done in the spirit of the rules and with the intent of success and the other is done to intentionally hinder one success so another individual will now succeed.. One is done with the hopes it's enough for the team he is on to succeed in winning a single game and the other is done in hopes that it's enough to win an entire season long achievement all in one at bat.. We all know these things happen.. There are people like yourself that don't view "gifting" rounds as a bad thing. I don't think any less of you or anyone else that may feel this way.. but to write an article basically justifying it as "Team" tactics seemingly ignores the spirit of our rules system and the fact that we all compete on an individual level. We can root for family and friends success all we want, but as soon as we start losing intentionally because somehow that is being selfless in helping them achieve a goal we start becoming a car show vs an actual competition.. Just my opinions as I stated some will agree and some with not.. Brad

12-11-2019, 07:09 PM	#6
HawkBrosMav Member Join Date: Apr 2009 Posts: 362 Likes: 6 Liked 302 Times in 73 Posts	Re: Team Orders I would venture to throw out a yes to this question but only because I cannot think of anything else that it would even work with... I've been a huge proponent to eliminating this nuance from NHRA it'd be very simple to do and still give the other cars TV time for sponsors and even incorporate a "competition" for the non chasers.. I've also argued strongly that less than 10 cars should be qualifying for the chase... went 62.5% of the field qualifies for the playoffs you have a problem.. NASCAR only qualifies roughly 28% of the field... makes no sense that a guy could literally win 1 or 2 1st round races all year a qualify if the cards fell correctly.. that shouldn't even be a long shot potential.. But this is all for another topic than the one at hand I feel like. Brad