Lifters In Stock Eliminator
 

I have a friend that I believe builds pretty good stuff post photos on Facebook of worn out flat tappet lifters and cam lobes that he encountered during break-in. I have read a lot about this of late. Is it really time to allow rollers for all combinations in stock due to inferior parts? Or, are the cams victim to other factors related to the valve spring and solid lifter rule changes?

To be clear, I have no current dog in this hunt. Everything that I own and am currently working on uses rollers.

Re: Lifters In Stock Eliminator
 

I certainly wish they would allow it. I seek no huge hp improvement, but I am so scared to wipe out a flat tappet lifter in my 305. I do not have the money to tare down and rebuild more than once if that happens to me. I have been extremely fortunate so far and have had no issues, but it keeps me up at night. I would love the peace of mind knowing that rollers would keep my car healthy for longer and avoid those start up failures.

Re: Lifters In Stock Eliminator
 

If you want roller lifters and have the need to spend a bunch of money, run a combination that uses them. Please, leave the existing rules alone.

Re: Lifters In Stock Eliminator
 

Why? Forcing combos to use inferior parts that others are granted permission to use seems punitive. Explain plz.

Re: Lifters In Stock Eliminator
 

Precision Products Performance Center (PPPC) has THE BEST tool steel lifter...knock on wood.... I have never had a cam lose a lobe with their lifter and I use all the spring pressure I can get from Pac 1409X.I have always used Bullet and P-55 cam cores with just normal parkerizing,but I think P-55 cores are gone now....
I use PPPC lifters uncoated,w/o extra oil hole, use grooving tool in lifter bore for extra oil to lifter/lobe...
I talked to Tim Goolsby the other day about doing 8620 core (steel roller core) as flat tappet and PPPC tool steel lifters w/DLC (diamond like coating)...Tim told me we could use a DI (ductile iron) core, alot of mild hydraulic rollers are on DI cores... so next one I do will most likely be a DI core with PPPC tool steel lifters

Re: Lifters In Stock Eliminator
 

I also have been running the tool steel PPPC lifters but on a cast P-55 core the last 2 yrs but prior to that i used the Shubeck?s bomb lifters (but never experienced a failure with then but lost many a nights sleep when running them lol ) in my hi-comp 1970 340 Cuda all from Brad Van Lant, maybe ask around with the older stock racers as to what they are using and any tricks,I?ve found all the 340 guys have been very forthcoming with majority of my questions,many people out there close in your area that have run the Chevy 305,350?s,Warren Eng. in Clinton,NC is who I would seek out,or Jim Marshall just south of you in SC or there are many others,GoodLuck 👍🏻

Re: Lifters In Stock Eliminator
 

Careful?inching slowly to Superstock. At some point NHRA will say; ok enough.
Not hearing any issues that warrant a change.
Rollers fail also and lately quite a few.

Re: Lifters In Stock Eliminator
 

It is real SIMPLE, your 305 DID NOT come from the factory with roller lifters ….For Pete’s sake ?..:):)

Re: Lifters In Stock Eliminator
 

So, is the inferior parts thing a myth? Is it still possible to build flat tappet combinations that will be reliable with new parts that are currently available? Not older parts that you just happen to have.

Re: Lifters In Stock Eliminator
 

It's a combination of things, but IMO the biggest factors are lubrication, ramp speed, and valve spring pressure.
Light oils, windage reduction, aggressive ramp speeds, and higher valve spring pressures, all improve performance but reduce reliability. The main culprit of flat tappet failures in Stock was allowing increased valve spring pressure. Careful what you wish or lobby for. The rule of unintended consequences never goes away.

Re: Lifters In Stock Eliminator
 

I run flat lifters and am super paranoid about break in procedure. 50# on the seat and ensure it fires(timing/fuel/fans/etc) run for 30-45 minutes 2-2500 rpm. I have never in my life wiped a cam and don't plan on it now. If I do, it will not be because of me.

Pull the 50# springs and Install correct springs, good to go.

Re: Lifters In Stock Eliminator
 

My understanding is that the quality of the cast core (If you still use them)
has deteriorated significantly in the last number of years. the "CWC"
casting cores are extremely difficult to impossible to find anymore.

Dozens of Horror Stories on the forums.

If the lifters do not rotate, the cams go flat in a real big hurry!

Re: Lifters In Stock Eliminator
 

I don't think it's that simple. Is there a significant performance advantage to roller lifters that I don't know about (outside of reliability of course)? The engine doesn't have factory rods/pistons but they are legal as long as they are the right size, why not put better lifters in it too?

I genuinely do not understand. If you are trying to say that running flat tappet cams keeps the racing more pure to it's origin and makes the entry level more difficult and punishing to choose that combination, then just say that. I may not like it, but at least it's a fair point. After all, I chose the combination that uses them, now I have sleepless nights because of it.

Frankly, I like the idea of using newer technology to improve longevity and my quality of life lol.

Re: Lifters In Stock Eliminator
 

I don't think that anyone is being punished. The combinations are what they are.

I feel that a roller profile would most likely be quite a bit more aggressive than a flat tappet.

My point in posting is not to push for a change, but to see if it is really an issue. Want and need are two entirely different things...

Re: Lifters In Stock Eliminator
 

Maybe punished gives the wrong connotation. Seems like you see what I'm trying to say anyway.

In my very limited experience, flat tappets are fine to stay, but I'm not one that has experienced flat tappet failure...yet.

Re: Lifters In Stock Eliminator
 

To get stuff to live Jerry and I (mostly Jerry) made a break in fixture for our cam and lifters.

Re: Lifters In Stock Eliminator
 

But then again, John, if the lifters don't rotate, most likely the cam was ground incorrectly, probably not enough (or too much) taper on the lobe.
Luckily Mopars have a larger diameter lifter, that's a plus.;)

Re: Lifters In Stock Eliminator
 

While they are called flat tappets, they are not, and they need to be matched to the amount of taper on the lobe.


Stan

Re: Lifters In Stock Eliminator
 

If Charlie Wescott is listening this may be an opportunity for Militia to make some hay.

Re: Lifters In Stock Eliminator
 

Frankie, welcome back :D

Re: Lifters In Stock Eliminator
 

Built a 350 Chevy for a hobby stock dirt car. He insisted the hole in lifter face was the way to go. I said that its not a great idea. 2 Cam lobes and 2 lifters were worn out. It took the center of the lifters and put major cups in face with the .015 hole opened to around .080 hole size.
Anyone take their lifters and cams and get frozen. Works great on valve springs and brake rotors.

Re: Lifters In Stock Eliminator
 

.......

Re: Lifters In Stock Eliminator
 

However, often it is the crappy quality or metallurgy of the new Chinese lifters
or sloppy machining that causes them not to rotate. Flat tappet
lifters are also not flat either (At least to start with hopefully)

Re: Lifters In Stock Eliminator
 

Maybe this will help someone. Daniel Powell is a pretty sharp guy.

https://youtu.be/k_ExoIuTpks

Re: Lifters In Stock Eliminator
 

Hey People .I am going to give you the best solution that all of us have
in a post later today. And hopefully you can use this untill there is a rule change. i will clear this with Ken again before posting. But i can hardly keep up after PRI. So be patient those of you who know me. We are not well known YET ,so i am concerned we cant deliver quickly. Cam and lifters are now a small part of our business.Thanks Rocky

Re: Lifters In Stock Eliminator
 

FWIW......


We never lost a Shubeck without there being a reason outside the lifter itself. Of course, I treated them like they were the finest crystal. And I was obsessed with valvetrain control and maintenance. Honestly, if I could get someone worth a damn to make them, I'd use them.



We did have a rather ugly incident with PPPC, and I refuse to use their products. A member here had an engine utterly destroyed, was intentionally deceived, and seriously mistreated.


I have used and sold Trend for over a decade, zero failures, zero complaints. Well, other than price and delivery delays.



I won't use DLC coated lifters. And they won't work with cast cam cores, or certain oils. Talk to the people who make and apply the coatings, not the people who sell parts.


The cam companies don't want to make flat tappet cams anymore. CWC really does not want to cast cores, because there's no volume. Steel cores and flat tappets are an entirely different deal, and require different practices. The sole reason you were able to buy cast core cams is because the OE's and some parts suppliers were buying 10,000 at a time, 2-3 times a year.



There are a ton of terrible flat tappets out there, and an extremely limited number of high quality flat tappets.


Johnson HiLyft makes some really nice stuff, they have some lifters that are 60+ Rockwell C, ground, not polished to an exceptional finish, and they're available with the EDM oil hole done BEFORE the finish grind is done on the face.


People are careless with lifter bore location and size. It causes flat and roller lifter failures.


People think that they're chemical engineers, and they're going to make their own race oil. They're killing their engines.


Converting everyone to roller lifters will require a massive number of entirely new lobe designs. The vast majority of cam companies don't even have a lobe designer anymore, they don't want one, and they don't want to design a lobe, or ten, for you, the three cam a decade customer.


It's not a simple rule change. And if you let that genie out of that bottle, you'll never get it back in. And the genie won't care what it destroys.

Re: Lifters In Stock Eliminator
 

You want roller lifters in stock?
The class is called Super Stock
Buy a quality tool steel lifter end of story
Gump what lifter was used and what oil ?

Re: Lifters In Stock Eliminator
 

I think that I made it very clear that I do not currently have a dog in this hunt. So, no, I am not advocating for change.


I always like the opportunity to learn something. I am glad that this thread has so much good input.

Re: Lifters In Stock Eliminator
 

Re: Lifters In Stock Eliminator
 

[QUOTE=Alan Roehrich;707769]FWIW......


We never lost a Shubeck without there being a reason outside the lifter itself. Of course, I treated them like they were the finest crystal. And I was obsessed with valvetrain control and maintenance. Honestly, if I could get someone worth a damn to make them, I'd use them.

I've run the same set of Shubecks since I put the car together 12 years ago and they don't look any different than when I installed them. When I picked them up in Shubeck's shop, he did tell me to run enough spring pressure to keep them on the lobe so I've always run more spring pressure than I probably needed to.
As a hydraulic lifter there is not much room for a thick carbide puck on the bottom of the lifter but with a solid lifter there wouldn't be the same restrictions I have to wonder if a less fragile version of them could be developed now that we are allowed to run solid lifters in stock.

Re: Lifters In Stock Eliminator
 

OH NO, we wouldn't want to change an obsolete rule, would we? OH, don't worry about me. I wouldn't run another flat motor if it was rated at 1/2 hp.

Re: Lifters In Stock Eliminator
 

I don't have a dog in this fight. But it is just the results of NHRA not following their rules and then allowing rules change after rules change. If back in the beginning they had done like the SCCA you wouldn't have all of these problems.


Stan


PS I know it has been going on for a very long time. 50 years ago we were running a Lunati stocker cam in a '67 Z28.


The Chevy 3030 data is from a Cam Dr the Lunati data is from me with a degree wheel and dial indicator on a used cam.

Re: Lifters In Stock Eliminator
 

Anyone use Hylift Johnson (Topline)? We sell them under the Erson brand, used on cams with springs @ 120 seat / 300# over the nose and haven't heard of any failures (knock on wood). Precision Products is probably the best, but I would think HJ Toplines are decent for less money.

Re: Lifters In Stock Eliminator
 

Sorry in advance but I am new to the stocker stuff.
AS for lifters in Chevy's 396/325hp to be exact the rule book says you can install lifter bore bushings.
My question is when I do this can I put the .904dia lifters in or do I have to stay with the GM .842 dia lifter

Re: Lifters In Stock Eliminator
 

Have to stay .842

Re: Lifters In Stock Eliminator
 

Where does it say that in the rulebook?

Re: Lifters In Stock Eliminator
 

It is not in the rule book, it is in the UNWRITTEN rule book. Mike Taylor is correct. If you know…..you know.

Re: Lifters In Stock Eliminator
 

Unwritten rules ain?t rules!

Re: Lifters In Stock Eliminator
 

Well, oversized lifters are in NHRA Stock Eliminator, just so you know.

Re: Lifters In Stock Eliminator
 

You can. But if you get torn down, you're getting a DQ, and probably a fine, as well as some time off.


I was actually just discussing this yesterday, with a very high ranking NHRA tech person.


In Stock Eliminator, the OE lifter diameter MUST be retained.