Lithium battery goes up in smoke at Gainesville….
 

A superstock racer was warming up his car in Gainesville, the engine shut off and he was able to remove the battery from the car before any damage could occur. Mike Cotten saw that the battery was smoking and he wasted no time pitching it to the ground. Just makes me wonder what could have been if this happened going down the road OR if the Cotten’s were asleep in the rig…….GOD is GOOD !!!!! ……:):)

Re: Lithium battery goes up in smoke at Gainesville….
 

Most all batteries now days are lithium. Every phone and computer. Every cordless tool uses lithium batteries. Golf carts are now going to lithium. My hearing aids use lithium batteries. I have a lithium battery in my race car and have been using them for at least 8 years. Mine is a Go Lithium. It has been flawless. They claim they have never had a battery failure or fire with their batteries.
Anything can happen. Mike was lucky he caught it before it did any real damage. I spoke to him just after the incident in the lanes. We were running each other for class. He was his usual upbeat self. Just happy to be at the racetrack doing what he loves. Mike is a really great guy. Always has a big smile on his face. Really friendly person.

Re: Lithium battery goes up in smoke at Gainesville….
 

true but also true is acid batteries never went up in smoke and fire! Lithium batteries clearly are unstable.

Re: Lithium battery goes up in smoke at Gainesville….
 

I'll never go to one after everything I've heard about them. I've always used Optima Red Tops and I've literally never heard anyone talk poorly of them. I can use one for 2-3 years before I have to replace it too. What's the benefits to a lithium battery? Lighter? More powerful? I've never had any issues with a gel battery and whatever upsides there are don't seem to out-weigh the risks.

Re: Lithium battery goes up in smoke at Gainesville….
 

That is not fact. Back when I was a young man in the late '70's, I went to start my '70 Cutlass and the battery exploded caused by corrosion on the terminals. I opened the hood and the whole side of the battery was blown out with acid all over the engine compartment, including my M/T aluminum valve covers. That's why safety glasses were recommended back then when working with lead/acid batteries. Since I had no way of rescue back then, I hit the ignition again for the heck of it and it started. Needless to say, I got a new battery. I've had lithium batteries in both of our race cars the past few years.

Re: Lithium battery goes up in smoke at Gainesville….
 

Never say never your racing stock now, and yes there are some concrete benefits.......those hard fought for and treasured wally things from winning class don't happen by accident.....

First lets look at the obvious weight delta and weight distribution, as a stocker example in my truck many years ago, low HPish, but good example, by moving 70 pounds of ballast from behind seat to weight box in rear I picked up .05......

Last year in my rocket ship of a gremlin I swapped out my 11 year old optima red top for a 5. something pound llithium antigravity brand(affordable.....its a gremlin........total weight loss was over 38 pounds due to bracket change etc.......I had visions of wheelstands in my head.....note this is a 12 volt lithium not the more popular and even stronger 16 volts...

First impressions on its intial fire up in the spring after its traditional wintering in the goldrush......this thing fired up like instantly......seems like it has much more umphh....

Took it racing of course.......didn't notice anything on my time slips except for the 30 something pound reduction.....put the spare tire back to match the weight, no real improvement, which kind of surprised me....millage will vary.....

charging time is brutally fast compared to the red top........1/2 the time.....got to like that when you are getting hot lapped in a 15 minute turn around.....note I have a big honking beast of a alternator on the gremlin, full size

I made sure to buy the best charger for the battery and also have a spare lesser charger just in case.

Since this is a performance class, 30 plus pounds off the nose for a heads up run is a no-brainer, and could make the difference between making the field at Indy or not......which is what most class racers if their being honest really want to do, qualify and win Indy.....

Re: Lithium battery goes up in smoke at Gainesville….
 

Depends on the type of lithium and how the battery is constructed.

Re: Lithium battery goes up in smoke at Gainesville….
 

Most of the lithium batteries sold by this "Brand" in question do not have a BMS (Battery Management System)

The BMS protects the battery!!!!

Myself and Pat McCue (MLE racecars) have been in talks with the NHRA for a couple of years now trying to establish a requirement for all lithium batteries used at NHRA events have the correct protection built in. Hopefully, this will get finalized soon.

It is unfortunate that there are several companies that are selling lithium batteries in the performance market without a BMS or any other protection. Note: Internal battery "Balancers" are a BMS and are NOT protection!

It is much less expensive to build a lithium battery without a BMS. The BMS can double the price of the battery.

Many batteries will also advertise using Lithium Iron Phosphate - LiFePo4 "Safe" cells, and although they are the Safest lithium cell, they still can go into thermal runaway without a BMS.

I have 30 years engineering experience developing electronics. When Lithium batteries first started being used in the automotive aftermarket there were no BMS systems that could handle the power required to crank high compression racing engines. I spent many years developing the first BMS that could work is this application. The BMS used in our PowerLite PRO series batteries fully protects the battery from you and you from the battery. Our BMS protects from under/over voltage, cell imbalance, over/under temperature, cranking time limit, over current, and short circuit.

Here is a link for more basic info on a BMS->
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battery_management_system


Lithium batteries are great when built and used properly. We have PowerLite batteries that are 10 years old and still going strong and of course, at about 10 pounds, it is hard to beat the cost per weight savings.

Remember:
1) Balancers are NOT protection
2) There are no such thing as matched cells that do not require a BMS
3) There are no lithium battery chemistries that do not require a BMS
4) A Lithium battery without a BMS is not a good idea

Do your homework before purchasing a lithium battery. Make sure it has a Full BMS protection!!!

Feel free to contact me if you have any questions!

Re: Lithium battery goes up in smoke at Gainesville….
 

Good info here, don't think you were referring to my little ATX 20HD which does have bms, I seem to recall one or two of the manufacturers I called up didn't use BMS. Their argument was it was a crutch for substandard cells, which I can see, but I wanted a bit more security with a BMS. Rapidly changing world, even Optima now offers small lithium orange batteries with BMS.

Re: Lithium battery goes up in smoke at Gainesville….
 

Whoever they were, I'll try to be polite and just say they were totally incorrect. Even the best cells in a batch from the best manufacturers are subject to the laws of thermodynamics and physics. If they are abused as described above, they will fail the same as any other.

Re: Lithium battery goes up in smoke at Gainesville….
 

Jeff Gillette and I talked a while back about building a Steel transport vessel for lithium batteries. Maybe it’s time now.
I think it was 2021, the Lanes heading to Pomona had a battery fire in the trailer. Vette I believe and I think it was Lithium? Maybe they can confirm?
Lithium’s aren’t in a great environment….

Re: Lithium battery goes up in smoke at Gainesville….
 

I addressed the risks and use of Lithium batteries with NHRA in October 2016. Had a long phone conversation with Bruce Bachelder on the subject and he asked me to provide some technical information so he could share with others at NHRA, which I did a few days later. Of course, nothing came about it.

While still working at Boeing, I was part of the industry team as regards to the Lithium battery fires that took place on the Boeing 787 airplanes. As an outcome of the investigation, there were a lot of changes not only on the battery designs, but also on the provisions and installation.
As an example, we ended designing, manufacturing, and installing a stainless steel box enclosure with a vent to the exterior of the fuselage for venting the fumes on all the 787 airplanes. SInce at the time there were already fires that had taken place at various tracks with Lithium batteries, especially people buying Chinese made cells on eBay and building their own, at the time I suggested consideration to requiring a metal enclosure for Lithium batteries.

Unknown to me at the time was the number of events by various types of Lithium powered devices that had taken place since 1991 through 2016 on commercial flights, with Li-ion, Lithium-ion, Lithium Metal, Lithium Ion/Polymer, and Lithium Sulphur Dioxide batteries.

Let's not forget the number of fires we see all the time on social media of EV's, including a cargo ship fire due to an EV.

If I am going to err, I will err towards safety, especially when you have batteries sitting next to a fuel cell in most cars. Therefore, when I am asked about batteries, I recommend the LifeLine AGM racing batteries, or their Lithium Iron Phosphate battery that also has the BMS protection system.

Re: Lithium battery goes up in smoke at Gainesville….
 

I have personnaly seen the aftermath of a old school lead acid battery that exploded when someone was trying to jump start a car in a gas station parking lot. I was a few feet away when it happened. I was not involved. I suspect the guy hooked up the cables wrong or the battery was defective.

Re: Lithium battery goes up in smoke at Gainesville….
 

I have also exploded a lead acid battery when an alternator died on my work truck and the clerk sold me an internal regulated alternator on a truck that had an exterior voltage regulator from the factory.....had to replace the fender on the truck and paint the other! big mess!

Re: Lithium battery goes up in smoke at Gainesville….
 

there are those that can break an anvil! Again, acid batteries typically don't go up in smoke resulting in fire and severe damage or loss of your car unlike Lithium batteries which is well documented!

FYI, I have been running a Braille Lithium battery which based on my research is currently the best option, in my dragster since last season.

I made the swap strictly for the 40 lb. weight savings over the XS Power D1600 I had been running.

https://i.imgur.com/FOp5EeQl.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/oK5SLwrl.jpg

Re: Lithium battery goes up in smoke at Gainesville….
 

Have the Lifeline Lithium Ion batteries in my RV, amazing how long they hold a charge and quickly you get them back up to 100%. BMS is a mandatory feature when you’re essentially sleeping right over them.

Re: Lithium battery goes up in smoke at Gainesville….
 

It was an old lead-acid battery that we believe caused the issue.

We actually put lithium batteries into the Corvette after the fire, a new Comp car we are building, and all of the electric race cars we've built.

For those interested, check out Altronics Powerlite lithium batteries as they are incredibly light and reliable; the Battery Management System ensures they cannot overcharge or ignite.

As for transporting lithium batteries.... that's a whole other issue when done in high volume, so I like where your head is at!

Cody Lane

Re: Lithium battery goes up in smoke at Gainesville….
 

Just bought a 200ah battery and 3000 w inverter from them, very nice and 5 year warranty! I researched the safety and the BMS on this product, knowing what could go wrong.

Re: Lithium battery goes up in smoke at Gainesville….
 

They are very sensitive to temperature hot or cold.. and vibration, if voltage drops too low they can combust.. I feel like the risk outways the benefit...