Ways to check on the use of illegal devices
 

The thought occured to me that just maybe there are many ways to check on racers who are using illegal devises to have a advantge of other racers I will start first have a camera Zoom into the drivers compartment showing the tree plus the driver to see when the release the button ,any other suggestions ??

Re: Ways to check on the use of illegal devices
 

Hoo Boy!

Re: Ways to check on the use of illegal devices
 

FYI Just a few ways
Some devices available are wireless traction control, although this is not yet refined ,a way to trip the beams at the finish line , a tree reader ,a wireless delay box ,plus by the way lock up convertors are Being used which are illegal, a remote way from the line by a crew man to release the trans brake via a camera looking at the tree .a person at the finish line to trip the beams with a very simple device similar to your garage door opener

Re: Ways to check on the use of illegal devices
 

I agree with you Don and here my own short… story.

In 2022 I was at the Ace Ohio Fall Slam (25-28 august) at Dragway42 and I was standing on top of the “left bank” direct in line with the 1/8 mile finish line to take some weather data.
I then observed a spectator "in a van" wearing a small headphone and a playing with his cellular phone or some kind of an electronic gizmo, making part time discussions right at the trap, only during runs of some certain family cars. He stayed in his van all four days long at +30 degree temperature doing this...
Further in the first day, I went up in the left spectator stand right in line with the starting line, in order to obtain more data for that track and saw another spectator up in the left stand doing the same thing with the same headphone model and cell (gizmo) also in discussions only and precisely at the start of the runs of those same family cars.
I realize later in the pits that those spectators were “spotter crews” for that racing family, working hard... at helping winning those big buck daily races???

Re: Ways to check on the use of illegal devices
 

That would require that NHRA enforce the no tinted windows other than factory original. I have cars come into my shop that regularly have tinting so dark that the driver can't be seen. I have broached this subject with NHRA in the past with no results, they told me that I should rat out the offenders, I told them that it is their job to enforce the rules, not me.

Re: Ways to check on the use of illegal devices
 

Have NHRA quit getting rid of all the good tech guys and just have tech again!



But wait, that's a dumb idea that'll never work , what am I thinking!

Re: Ways to check on the use of illegal devices
 

Unfortunately the only way to enforce it is for either NHRA to have tech inspectors begin randomly pulling racer's cars apart. Something like that will probably never happen, so until a racer lets his guard down and makes it obvious of something "fishy" going on, I'm thinking there won't be any action to enforce electronic rules. I think "traction control" is given more credit than it deserves. Unless it's a heads up situation, 9 times out of 10, if a car begins to break tires loose to the point where "traction control" would kick in, there is no way that they are going to run close to their dial-in. Starting line timing retards, while a form of "traction control" would be a losing battle to try and outlaw them. You'd have to deem every aftermarket ECU illegal, as well as all "programmable" MSD ignition boxes capable of using a trigger to cut timing and ramp it back in over some time. This coming season will be my 4th full time season, so my experience is limited, but I remember spectating the late rounds of a race at Numidia, where a driver did not once look ahead or over at the other lane, then proceeded to "spot drop" and run within a few thou of their dial. Kind of suspicious IMHO, but with enough practice, and the right car, I suppose you could spot drop and be almost dead on every run.

Re: Ways to check on the use of illegal devices
 

Have had this play out more than once in SS. In high gear and around 800' look over and the other driver has his head looking down towards his crotch, then at the 1000' marker his head pops up and looks over to me as if he is gauging what the gap looks like. ??????? Timer ???????

Re: Ways to check on the use of illegal devices
 

Did he beat you? Win the race?

Re: Ways to check on the use of illegal devices
 

Are there ways of doing it? Probably. I took a class in the spring semester last year at school where we had to learn how to program a microcontroller, in our case called an "arduino."(look it up, pretty neat stuff). With a basic program, I wouldn't be surprised if you could take some sort of frequency based input, i.e. abs tone ring or driveshaft rpm sensor, and, through a series of programming "tricks," cause a certain output from the board(possibly illuminate an LED) if the graph generated by the sensor signal is either faster or slower than a baseline graph. Now the real question is whether or not anyone would be so clever, or go through the amount of effort for the lousy purse we have, and something like this. My personal guess would be no, but ya never know.

Re: Ways to check on the use of illegal devices
 

Ya know, to certain types, winning at any cost is everything!

Re: Ways to check on the use of illegal devices
 

To the under educated, what type of starting devices do we think are
being used. I would like to know what to look for in a competitors
car.

Thanks,

J.R.

Re: Ways to check on the use of illegal devices
 

As a long time bracket racer that just started running stock last year, I can tell you with the quality of tourqe converters, tires and knowledgeable carb builders today. Making a car run dead on is not near as difficult as it was years ago. I've left the same dial in on my bracket car for several weeks. Catching someone using a delay box is just a matter having eyes watching. My advise is, if you think someone is cheating pay attention and put up the protest money and have them tore down.

Tom Flowers
3860 E/SA

Re: Ways to check on the use of illegal devices
 

Seeing when someone lets go of the button is easy. Have 1 reverse light wired to the button.

Of course, it they bottom bulb and only have .03-.10 delay in you'd never see it.

Anybody else remember the infamous 'Willy Raymond' thread? It created a big stir, and was all crap.

Re: Ways to check on the use of illegal devices
 

Yes, stop worrying about what you think your competitors might be doing and focus on your program and what you need to improve to be more competitive. Unless your car can run dead on every pass, you can put together .015 packages at will and close up the stripe to .003 everytime, you need to focus on improving your program!

That said, IF a tree reader exists, the racer(s) using it is competing in Big $ bracket racing not stock/super stock.

Re: Ways to check on the use of illegal devices
 

I am not worrying one second about what the competitors are doing never have never will just making a comment on the possiblity that might exists out in racing as a whole the tought occued to me especially at the big money races

Re: Ways to check on the use of illegal devices
 

Don, do you compete at BIG $ bracket races? We do and it's a non concern.

Re: Ways to check on the use of illegal devices
 

I do not attend big$ bracket races but if i did I would make darn sure that my devices that are being used work ok as there is no rules at the races concerning devices ? or is there ?:confused:

Re: Ways to check on the use of illegal devices
 

Don, we do compete at the BIG $ bracket races, both locally and the Flings and I can tell you without doubt that no one that competes at these events cares if/what illegal devices maybe in use by some racers and the proof is that these races are typically sold out in less than 3 minutes! So all this talk about tree readers, down track position indicators, matty box, etc. is nothing but internet forum noise largely posted by racers like yourself that don't compete at these races. That said, running dead on, cutting .00x lights and taking a few thousands stripe is commonplace and no big deal in the year 2024.

That said, I do believe that ARC modules are being used by some with the Grid.

Re: Ways to check on the use of illegal devices
 

do you really try be be a real horrible person. Go back into you hole

i have known Don for over 20 years. he is a honorable person and if he asked for help most of us would drop what we are doing and rush to help

Re: Ways to check on the use of illegal devices
 

so your feelings are hurt by my reply to Don, but his feelings aren't.

At least be honest, your feeble comments have nothing to do with my reply to Don and everything to do with the fact that you don't like that I don't race stock/super stock yet I'm allowed to opine on this forum.

That said, this thread nor my reply is about Don's honor. :rolleyes:

Re: Ways to check on the use of illegal devices
 

Having been to a Fling, those events are on another level.......and sell out because they are BEYOND well run......It ranks in my top ten for full event experiences......Along with Ken's classracer nationals, Tyler and Brians Class Racer Revival, many National Opens in canada, did one bracket race last year at Epping, wasn't concerned at all about illegal stuff, a lot of that stuff is a crutch at best at least in 1/8 mile.

For class racing 1/4 mile I would have an issue with spotters at top end.....The grid with ARC clearly is a no/no for actual class racing,

For non class racing and testing: I can see where it could add a function of safety and be a useful training, and testing tool, and would help keep someone from crashing, which is always bueno.

My guess is that 99% of any illegal activity in stock and superstock is under the hood and not to be found further down car........

Re: Ways to check on the use of illegal devices
 

There is no rule prohibiting spotters

Re: Ways to check on the use of illegal devices
 

I had not heard of the ARC referenced above so I looked it up. For those that don't know what the MSD ARC linked with the Grid can do, this is from MSD's website:


"OVERVIEW
Now there is even more control with the PN 7761 module for the Power Grid System Controller. This module sets rpm limits based on slew rate (rpm acceleration) or based on time since launch. All of this is programmed seamlessly in MSD View.

The ARC module stands for Advanced RPM Control, it basically allows your race car to remain consistent, pass after pass, controlling your engines rpm curve during a pass. This helps you get down the track quicker and far more consistent. By using the MSD View software we can control the rpm down to a hundredth of a second and control the driveshaft speed for maximum traction. We can also pull out timing for a split second should we encounter tire slip. Set 3 different timing Retard curves and a Rev Limit Curve to control wheelspin."


Nice video explaining the system here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vJaItvplMUQ

Basically, it appears you set the driveshaft rpm curve in the Grid for a given ET, dial in and like magic you run within a hundreth of your dial in.

Re: Ways to check on the use of illegal devices
 

I know I will receive hate mail but, GET RID OF THE GRID in Stock

Re: Ways to check on the use of illegal devices
 

you really are a horse's backend. every statement you make is condescending. you are so full of yourself, that you do not realize this.

Re: Ways to check on the use of illegal devices
 

General Regulations; 8:3 and 9:2. It isn't legal the way that I read it.

Re: Ways to check on the use of illegal devices
 

I pulled on the scales one year during TT's at the US Nationals. At the time they had hired some young guy to look at electronics. He looked under my car and noticed a drive shaft sensor. He ask me where that was going to. I told him the ECU. I was busted. He had me take it off and hand it to him the next time I came across the scales. At the time ARC was not invented, but I was informed it's always been against the rules to tie your engine management to a counter (Drive Shaft Sensor). If there is no recorder (Racepac), there should not be a drive shaft sensor on the car. ARC will not be of much use without some way of counting speed/distance. I have installed many ah systems for S and SS guys and usually Drive shaft sensor comes up. I always relay what happened to me and I always get the same reply "The heck with that then" !

Re: Ways to check on the use of illegal devices
 

Jeff, the way that I've always understood it, if you have a "data logger" (racepack), you can't have anything between it and your ignition box. The Grid goes between your "data logger" and your ignition box and lets them communicate with each other.
If I'm incorrect, I'm sure someone will let me know.

Re: Ways to check on the use of illegal devices
 

Hi Billy. I think the original intention of that was so you didn't have to buy multiple sensors for each system.

Re: Ways to check on the use of illegal devices
 

The ARC module is already spelled out as being prohibited in Sportsman categories. I can’t imagine any sort of “traction control” being very consistent. Killing power, especially if trying to replicate a curve, may be too “stop and go” for it to work well in a bracket racing scenario.

Re: Ways to check on the use of illegal devices
 

I have been around long enough to remember the old adage "your not cheating if you don't get caught". We all know its self certification on entries and cars rarely get looked at closely anymore. That said, I think the vast majority of racers do not intentionally cheat.

Re: Ways to check on the use of illegal devices
 

The absolute best way to catch someone who is cheating is to put up the money for an inspection. Of course you should provide tech with as detailed information as you can. I believe a visual inspection is in the neighborhood of $200-$300.

Put up, or…

Re: Ways to check on the use of illegal devices
 

you are very wrong

Re: Ways to check on the use of illegal devices
 

I see the flaw in my statement. I guess it really depends what is really defined as "traction control." I would put it into 2 categories, active, and passive traction control. I would consider time based timing retards to be passive. They are either programmed into the msd box, or the ecu. With these, the timing curve will be exactly the same every run, which has proven to be very consistent for many cars that use a setup like this. What I can't imagine to be super consistent would be a type of "active" traction control, where the msd or ecu is responding to wheel speed. I know that computers have come a long way, but the response time of something like this may not be quite fast enough for it to work with absolute accuracy. Correct me if I'm wrong, and I'm sure you will, but I've never heard of someone using an arc module or something similar that does the work of a "matty box" for you, and replicates runs with accuracy by changing the tune of the car going down the track.

Re: Ways to check on the use of illegal devices
 

Remember when it was about cutting a good light and running your dial? The only external wiring was for the Line Lock.

Re: Ways to check on the use of illegal devices
 

It COULD be that way again but I won't hold my breath waiting.

Re: Ways to check on the use of illegal devices
 

Dont feel bad. I had to look that up too. I had no idea what the ARC module did. I
guess I am old school. If I cant win without electronics or cheating then I dont get to. My deal is to cut a light and run the dial. I work real hard to do that. I am not a "hitter" but I do go some rounds and have finshed top 10 in the division 2 out of the past 4 seasons. I also had a divisional win in 22. Personally I dont think there is many out there cheating.

Re: Ways to check on the use of illegal devices
 

Doug, you're not going to hear of anyone using an ARC module in class or bracket racing because it is illegal.

That said, I have no first hand knowledge of the matty box and neither does anyone else that isn't/hasn't used it and they ain't talking about it no mind doing so on a forum but I am well aware of what can be done with the ARC module and if the question is can it be used for to make your car deadly consistent? That answer is YES and by deadly, I'm not talking hundreds, I telling you thousands from pass to pass but again, the best of the best bracket cars do this also without an ARC module.

start at 8:54

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CPk0t6cgW0Q

Re: Ways to check on the use of illegal devices
 

Someone is buying this module. I wonder how many MSD sells for $800.00?