Joe Newbie, 20 Builds a "Stocker"' in 2023
 

Joe Newbie (NB) lives in Phoenix and works at a Chevy dealer. He's gone down the track at Wild Horse a few times on Friday nights. He has a fair amount of hand tools, but not much else. He's not married and lives with a couple of his buddies.

Mr. Veteran Racer (VR) lives down the street from NB. NB hears VR's Stocker running all the time and loves the sound of it. He stops by VR's place one day, and strikes up a conversation. He tells VR he'd like to build a Stocker too, and would VR help steer him in the right direction, VR says sure...

NB comes from a family that never raced anything, and really don't have a clue what he's talking about. He's got no usable parts on hand to use on his new project.
(this is a semi- autobiographical story )

NB finds a 66 Bel Aire 4 dr, with a 283 , 220 horse engine and a PG trans. Surprisingly good shape for the year.

That's the setup here..Let's follow along.
TBC

Re: Joe Newbie, 20 Builds a "Stocker"' in 2023
 

plenty of pics please

Re: Joe Newbie, 20 Builds a "Stocker"' in 2023
 

Joe (NB) and his buddies take the engine and trans out of the 66 on the weekend.
He's got it in the back of his pickup truck. He brings it over to VR's place and asks him how he should proceed with the tear down and rebuilding.
VR> You've got to have a known Stocker builder do your engine and break it in on his dyno.
NB> But I want to build it myself. Ya, know, for the experience. I only want to run a couple tenths under the index , for now
VR> Look, kid . There are a couple of fast P/SA cars out here. You need to run 6-7 under anyway, if you want to survive a heads up run. If not you're gonna have a bad day.
NB> I want to do this on a budget...So much a week out of my paycheck..Like that.

So NB takes the heads and intake off... I can use these, right?
VR> No. 520 and 896 heads are okay, but you've got to find some 520 T heads. They're better
NB> It's the right intake anyway, right?
VR> Nope. You need the 459 300 horse intake.
NV> How come that's legal?
VR> I don't know.It just is...

NB begins taking the short block apart...
NB> I can use there rods, with some forged TRW approved pistons from Summit, right?
VR> Nope. Throw them away. You've got to find the lightest approved after-market rods so you can get your weights down to the minimum . Then you've got to order some CP or Venolia pistons. You can use any weight pin as long as the total is right, with the rings added in. BTW, you need to run over to Total Seal and order some thin millimeter rings with gas ported spacers, back cut seconds, and low tension oil rings.

NB> I can use this cast crank , can't I?
VR> Well, you can, but by the time we trim the counterweights down , index and offset ground the stroke, re-do the mains, you might as well get an aftermarket crank from somebody that know what he's doing.
VR> BTW, I wouldn't use that block either.You need a Dart approved block.
NB> But I don't see a small bore, small main Dart listed.
VR> That's okay .We'll just have all eight sleeved and use bearing spacers.
NB> Is that legal?
VR> KID, it says they're legal for small block applications. Who cares? There's no tech anyway ;-)
BTW, while you're throwing away the block, heads, intake, crank, might as well throw away the damper, oil pan, oil pump, timing cover , sprockets, chain , cam, lifters, push rod, rockers, springs, retainers, studs, head bolts. You won't be needing any of that junk either..You can keep the valve covers...

TBC

Re: Joe Newbie, 20 Builds a "Stocker"' in 2023
 

Not to ruin your story line and I hope that you continue with it but this IS a fictional story, am I correct? After all, this IS 2023 not 1973. I see it going one of three ways...

1. sure kid, here's my engine builders number, my trans builders number and my chassis shops number. Be ready to give them a big down payment and wait a year or two.

2. sure kid, but you can't be competitive in a "slow" car. Sell that ugly old POS to a collector or a street-rodder and get a big-block 60s-70s musclecar. See 1.

3. get off my lawn or I'll call a cop!

Re: Joe Newbie, 20 Builds a "Stocker"' in 2023
 

I think it is a good story. Us old, experienced racers can easily lose sight of where we came from. I am curious about the direction of this story. It is my hope the new racer can be encouraged and coached, because, you never know, he could be a winner.

Re: Joe Newbie, 20 Builds a "Stocker"' in 2023
 

(we continue with our satirical fairy tale)

NB gazes back into his truck bed. Well, I got a distributor anyway LOL..
VR> Nope.Put that in the scrap pile too. Nobody uses points anymore. You need an MSD distributor, 6AL ignition box with 2 step limiter , MSD coil, brake pressure switch, and pressure gauge for inside the car. You won't be able to cut a good light in that big, heavy car, without all that stuff. This ain't bracket racing. They won't let you deep stage either ..Only the Pro's can do that.

VR> While we're talking electronics, you'll need an electric water pump that bolts to the front of the engine, a gear reduction starter, a mini alternator, and an aluminum pulley to drive it..Oh. and aluminum radiators are legal now too.
So throw away all that ancient original stuff.

By now NB is wondering what he's got himself into..
Atleast I've got the PG trans..
VR> Sell that to a bracket racer..You need a metric 200 3 speed, metric converter, and an SFI approved flex plate. You're talking 2, 3 ,4 , maybe 5 grand for the trans, depending on options, plus 1200 + for the converter and flex plate. Of course you need a good 3 speed shifter too.

NB> How come the 3 speed is legal?
VR> Well, the guys that had to run PGs complained to NHRA, because all the new car guys had 3 speeds and they didn't so they just said okay.
That's the same with a lot of this stuff. Guys wanted these after market parts for their own agenda, so they bent NHRA's ear until they got what they wanted. The guys that didn't need 'em didn't protest , but instead went out and bought all this stuff too. I figure they let all this stuff in so they could shake 'em down for contingency money, racer than paying out much themselves, to the racers. Now they even charge you for the manufacturer's decal, so you can claim someone else's money..

By now, NB's head is spinning...

TBC

Re: Joe Newbie, 20 Builds a "Stocker"' in 2023
 

I'll be back tonight. I actually have to finish installing my own MSD with rev limiter today ;-)

Re: Joe Newbie, 20 Builds a "Stocker"' in 2023
 

Wow what kind of downers are you on ? I know you are just tossing **** to the wall to see if it sticks.At least half of the things VR wanted are not even needed period. The combo you picked will run a half second under with 283 hp /stock rods/ cast pistons stock block/ 459 intake Yac Blue Streak con. and one of your low buck turbo 200 trans. All the other things needed are required no matter what combo you build . I would hope that if a newbie came to me for advice I could help them get going without breaking the bank. Get it running and enjoy racing then make it fast as time and money allows . Rick .

Re: Joe Newbie, 20 Builds a "Stocker"' in 2023
 

I have been racing my car for almost 46 years. I do everything on it. I don’t have an engine guy or a transmission guy or chassis guy. My stuff is slow but is an awesome race car. I have won on the NHRA division level and IHRA pro am level against some world champion drivers. So it can be done. I have even won class 4 times for a total of 5 Wally’s right now I run .4 too .5 under. My goal when I go to the track is to cut a good light and run the dial. If I get a heads up I just race the same way. I have had a few lately and went home early. That’s just part of the game. I accept it and move on. At the last 2 races I lost by a total margin of .005.
I enjoy the racing win or loose.

Re: Joe Newbie, 20 Builds a "Stocker"' in 2023
 

Rick,
Easy, buddy... I'll get to my point here..
You've got to imagine VR as your most common type of racer in 2023, as I see it.
He's not a Billy Nees type, or even an MY.
I picked this combo for a reason, and I'm not even half way through it...
Let it play out, and I'll even sharpshoot my own thread.

Re: Joe Newbie, 20 Builds a "Stocker"' in 2023
 

Just pulling your chain some too. Interesting subject though ,hope more youngsters get into stockers/superstock. I need something to watch after my hat is handed to me in the first round. Rick

Re: Joe Newbie, 20 Builds a "Stocker"' in 2023
 

what after market crank is approved?

Re: Joe Newbie, 20 Builds a "Stocker"' in 2023
 

I don't see one either.
I'll have to ask "VR" when I see him.
Maybe he meant to say to send it to someone who is familiar with cranks for Stock and Super Stock, rather than a local crank grinder.

I feel kind of special , getting you to post again...Thanks

Re: Joe Newbie, 20 Builds a "Stocker"' in 2023
 

Will roller rockers fit under those valve covers?

Re: Joe Newbie, 20 Builds a "Stocker"' in 2023
 

Interesting story, I'm a NB stock eliminator racer but not new to shoe polish racing. Makes me glad I bought a good car that just needed a few updates.

Re: Joe Newbie, 20 Builds a "Stocker"' in 2023
 

I think they will. I think the stud girdle was the problem in the 70's.
NB could use double gaskets.This could be the cheapest part of the whole deal.

Re: Joe Newbie, 20 Builds a "Stocker"' in 2023
 

I just don’t think any youngsters are going to be beating the door down to build stock eliminator cars. Usually the only new blood we see is when their family has raced a stocker or super stocker. As my good friend Larry Hill would say, “ why would anyone spend so much money to go sooo SLOW ?? :confused:

Re: Joe Newbie, 20 Builds a "Stocker"' in 2023
 

NB doesn't have many usable parts, so far...
Hey VR, can I get away with using the 8.2 10 bolt rear?
VR> No, but the 12 bolt has always been legal as an option, but you need it for the 6.14's anyway. You'll need some 8.5 to 10 " light wheels to mount your radial slicks on.
NB> How much for the slicks?
VR> A lot..but you can probably buy some take offs from the high hp guys, for a bunch less.
NB breathes a temporary sigh of relief...

Hey VR, I see you have a fuel cell in your car. Do I need that?
VR> Oh yeah..It's for safety, plus you can clean out the old race gas easier so you don't pollute your fresh racing gas. That stuff ain't cheap.
NB asks how much per gallon and VR tells him . NB promptly passes out on the floor.
VR pours cold water on his head.
Will he ever wake up?
Stay tuned..

Re: Joe Newbie, 20 Builds a "Stocker"' in 2023
 

This is a dumb thread that is really not proving a point.
You are trying to make fun of years of Evolution caused by racers with deep pockets. As much as you can try to blame NHRA on these things, it was all due to people lobbying for these rule changes, just like the roller lifter post that gets brought up every couple months. Where does this go? Where another VR turns NB onto a front wheel drive stocker that will run the index for an affordable price?
These changes are here to stay and like everything in life, not everyone is happy about it, especially older racers who like how it was.
I'm not a fan of electric cars, but I will age out too and they will become the norm.

Re: Joe Newbie, 20 Builds a "Stocker"' in 2023
 

I’m personally enjoying the thread, keep it going Mark. It offers a sobering view of how we got here. Simply what you get when you’ve selected a performance based class. While the .10-.20 under car might be prudent and even affordable who wants to live in fear of seeing your name on the ladder next to the racer who spends crazy $ to be at the top of the sheet. Ego also drive’s cost on the populated classes more so than competitive spirit.

Re: Joe Newbie, 20 Builds a "Stocker"' in 2023
 

It will get even better after NB follows all that VR tells him. NB goes to a test and tune and runs -1.135 under. They go to a National and VR tells NB not to run run faster than -0.80 under. NB says to VR WTF, I could have done that for $10's of thousands less. :eek:

Stan

Re: Joe Newbie, 20 Builds a "Stocker"' in 2023
 

I think that YOU'RE missing the point. I don't see it as trying to make fun of anything. He HAS made a good "point" of bringing out just how the Racer's personal agendas have brought the sport (MY sport) to a point of specialization where an "average" 20 year old who has no other family involved largely wouldn't have the funds or knowledge to compete. I don't see him laying blame on the NHRA anywhere in his posts. ALTHOUGH we both know that certain Racers have an easier way of pushing their personal agendas than others and certain companies seem to have their products forced upon us whether they're needed or not.
Where DOES this go?

Re: Joe Newbie, 20 Builds a "Stocker"' in 2023
 

"VR> Well, the guys that had to run PGs complained to NHRA, because all the new car guys had 3 speeds and they didn't so they just said okay.
That's the same with a lot of this stuff. Guys wanted these after market parts for their own agenda, so they bent NHRA's ear until they got what they wanted. The guys that didn't need 'em didn't protest , but instead went out and bought all this stuff too. "

Re: Joe Newbie, 20 Builds a "Stocker"' in 2023
 

I suppose I'm qualified to write one, but do you know how many here would think THAT one is dumb?

Re: Joe Newbie, 20 Builds a "Stocker"' in 2023
 

Interesting post.
My son & I are have only been running stock since 2016.
I come from a 20 years of bracket racing, my son from 10 years of bracket racing.
It has been an eye opening & wallet depleting experiance LOL.
He wanted the challenge of Stock eliminator racing.
I did inform he that he would be writing checks, instead of cashing them.

We bought a turn key car, well after a couple of engine rebuilds & sorting out other issues, we had a 4-6 under legal car.
Not a good heads up car, but one that could win if things fell in place.
We were very fortunate to have a long time Stocker friend & engine builder that helped a long the way.

I will say, the stuff is not very stock, I was probably a little naive to think it was.
But we made the choice to do it & don't regret it.
Always learning something new.
We have since sold the first car & bought a more competitive one.

My advice to NB, buy a running car & watch it run before buy it.
Then take it apart to see what is there & legal.

Re: Joe Newbie, 20 Builds a "Stocker"' in 2023
 

My point exactly.

Great thread Mark

Re: Joe Newbie, 20 Builds a "Stocker"' in 2023
 

I understand what you are getting at here and it is entertaining but why doesn't Joe Newbie do what a lot of us did, build a Stock legal bracket car and work at it a little at a time within his budget until he has something that is sub index, then he can switch over to class racing? He can race in the meantime until he gets to where he wants to be.

Another point, be a mentor to someone, I didn't have anyone to help me when I was starting out and spent years in the wilderness not spending money in the right places and not knowing the tricks to winning rounds.

Re: Joe Newbie, 20 Builds a "Stocker"' in 2023
 

Secondly. a 20 year old newbie on a budget isn't going to win a heads up, just learn to live with it. If he's on a budget, he likely will be building a slower class car so the odd of a heads up a pretty slim anyway.

Re: Joe Newbie, 20 Builds a "Stocker"' in 2023
 

Who here without a lot of help from parents or something of that nature came out on fire with a stock superstock car.

When I was 20 if I ran into a A or B car I was going to take a beating. The only way I won a heads up race then was when I had a guy decide to watch my fender and not the tree to leave. I did resort to building a U car, but did buy a very competitive record holder when I got out of Grad School. What happened to earning your stripes.

Funny enough Mark, I have a full size 283 car in process now. It may have a bit more evolution but it will also fit right in at a junior stock race. There have always been people talking about wanting to build a car but its a hell of a lot more than money. I get it if you want to go fast it takes money now, but so does the damn grocery store and gas station.

This is not a participation prize sport and that is what drew me to it. The world knows I like eccentric combos that may require one off parts or have the capability of being Number 1 at Indy. That's is something I grew fond of when I did not have the money to qualify on the top of the sheet with a "conventional" stocker.

Re: Joe Newbie, 20 Builds a "Stocker"' in 2023
 

The average 20 year is old is swapping that worthless stock 283 for a readily available 5.3 or 6.0 LS that he...or she can go pick out in a junk yard. A quick freshen up, upgrade the rods and pistons to gen IV ones and slap on a cheap 88mm turbo. Spend roughly 3-4k for someone to fab up some piping. Get a used holley ECU and make sure you have a well known "power adder" machine shop sticker like you see on the street outlaw cars. So you have some creditability at your local test and tune. Make around 15-20 lbs of boost and voila!!! Easiest 1200 hp you've ever made. You'll have as much in your engine as some guys have in their stocker heads and intake alone.

The average 20 yr old doesn't see us on TV like they do the scripted street outlaw guys. NHRA had a perfect opportunity to give sportsman guys some spotlight during the rain delay at Topeka by at least showing just the finals. They won't do it and risk losing sponsorships for the pros.

Btw, we've all see tons of guys that only go 3-4 under the index holding up Wally's. Much more that top 5 qualifiers. I think a lot of guys rather leave second on the tree rather than be high up on the qualifying sheet.

Re: Joe Newbie, 20 Builds a "Stocker"' in 2023
 

Sad depending on your POV, but very true!

Re: Joe Newbie, 20 Builds a "Stocker"' in 2023
 

Not a Stocker...but, I'll leave this gem here from this morning. The original poster was recently spectating at Heartland Park, and got excited about potentially making his car fit in S/S. Not sure if the commenter even races a Stock/SS car? Sometimes, I think that some of you are your own worst enemy to sustainability though.

Props to Daren and Jeff Lee for trying to *actually* help this guy though...

Re: Joe Newbie, 20 Builds a "Stocker"' in 2023
 

I was a gear head that enjoyed cars way before I could drive..My mentor was "Sunday Sunday Sunday! Now a days you have no clue there is a dragstrip near. No advertizing and most race cars stay in a travel case white box these days. I'm sure like most commenting here, at 20 you had plenty of get up and go. I also wasn't thinking retirement at that age.

Paul

Re: Joe Newbie, 20 Builds a "Stocker"' in 2023
 

This is a well-timed post. I remember a thread years ago where a guy was looking at building a 305 Camaro stocker. It devolved into "you need this, you need that, it's $30k for a competitive engine and you'll probably still be dead in a heads-up race against the Butchers, etc..." I'm guessing he never ended up building a stocker.

There's something to be said for ensuring Joe Newbie knows what he's getting into. But obsessing over the exorbitant costs of the tips and tricks that take a -0.50 stocker into a -1.20 stocker is ultimately detrimental. That's no knock on my heroes that relentlessly pursue those few extra hundredths - the point is simply that many Joe Newbies will certainly read overly-negative posts like that FB comment and decide "screw it, I'm just gonna buy the 88mm turbo LS setup that PozQB wrote about, that's a better idea and sounds like more fun!"

Re: Joe Newbie, 20 Builds a "Stocker"' in 2023
 

Joe NB was back at work today, after missing a day to nurse that bump on his head, after hitting the deck.

Hey VR, I got some good news today. There's an old timer at work that used to do a bunch of Stocker heads back in the 70's. He said he'll do my 520 T's for me . He's still got all the stones to put a nice 3 angle valve job on them.
VR> Sorry kid, but you'll need to take them to someone with a Sunnen or Serdi valve and guide machine, that has all the cutters to do the job that's now legal. That Kadar guy will do a good job for you.
NB> What does he need cutters for?
VR> Well, now they allow any cuts that come off the guide centerline, like down in the valve pocket , along the edge of the chamber, and even the valve seat can be as wide as you want , with however many angles you want. Basically, the rules are now, the chamber size can't be under spec, the ports can't be over the spec size, and you can't mill the intake side as far as the valve bolt holes, to reduce the intake port volume.
Of course , you can't leave any evidence of " enhancement" ;-)

NB> "Enhancement" ?

VR> Let me tell you a little story.
About 30 some odd years ago, some guys started to use acid to make the ports bigger, for more air flow. Some would actually hand port the head ,and then sand blast the ports so you wouldn't see any grind marks.
Some of the racers felt that this was getting out of hand, fast, and it would just drive up the cost of building a Stocker and keep new guys , such as yourself from building their own entry level cars.
A veteran tech man from Louisiana, one of the best they had, wanted to put a stop to this stuff, and develop a chemical test to detect acid work in the ports and intake.
NHRA said no way. They didn't want to get involved with any judgement calls , for fear of a lawsuit. So, they came up with the port spec , and no grind marks deal.
I don't think I've ever heard of anyone getting tossed for port work, in many years.

NB> Wow. Do all the fast guys have these enhancements?
VR> I ain't sayin' nothin' about nobody!
NB> That doesn't sound like "stock" to me.
VR> Now yer catchin' on, kid. It's just a name out of the distant past...

TBC

Re: Joe Newbie, 20 Builds a "Stocker"' in 2023
 

Nick, That's a valid point. But those who know me, realize that I usually call 'em like I see 'em. I'm not going to sugarcoat anything, just to get new guys hooked into Stock Eliminator.
I didn't create these "rules". I just want to make newbies aware of them.

I've made several posts on the dime rockets threads, encouraging guys to build their own T 200s, fill their own blocks, build their own headers, etc.

Billy will also tell you that many of these guys that we've tried to guide,..well, you never hear from them again. My guess is the realized how deep they were getting in, and had to back out.

After I wrap this up, we'll have plenty of time to kick it around.
Thanks

Re: Joe Newbie, 20 Builds a "Stocker"' in 2023
 

Of course! Never meant to dispute the "rules" or the honesty - I guess this was aimed at the FB comment above. It doesn't provide any critical thought or present any reason to pursue getting into S/SS. There's a difference between being helpful and honest (such as "Mr. VR") vs. being negative and exaggeratory.

Anyway, carry on - I'm enjoying the novel so far!

Re: Joe Newbie, 20 Builds a "Stocker"' in 2023
 

This thread reminds me of the autumn green stick nova build. Now I believe cost was not an issue but would love to hear their thoughts and feedback on jumping into stock with a new build. The cost involved and all the issues they ran into and of course why she lost interest….

Re: Joe Newbie, 20 Builds a "Stocker"' in 2023
 

Jump to end of story: Racer NB finally decides to build the same car into a bracket racer that's quicker than the car would be in Stock at 2/3 the cost and goes on the circuit chasing $5 to 10000-to win purses at the same entry fees. Whether he feels the same satisfaction remains to be seen.

Re: Joe Newbie, 20 Builds a "Stocker"' in 2023
 

NB has been busy lately. He buys a gallon of pure white acrylic and hardener from Summit. The bodyman at work offers to spray the Chevy in his home spray booth

VR has been assembling the 283 during after work hours.

NB gets a cash advance on a credit card and buys a used open trailer from Craigslist

He takes apart his original 4GC carburetor and cleans all the parts.
He stops by VR's place after work..
Hey buddy, I found these pics on the net, The first one looks just like mine, but the second one is different down inside. What's legal to do to these things?
https://i.postimg.cc/59wKZYn8/cid-CAM00305.jpg

https://i.postimg.cc/284QkMtt/1209em...-283-chevy.jpg
VR> Glad you asked. You used to have to run the original 66 boosters, or venturi clusters as they're sometimes called. The exact same part number. The ones with the small center hole in the pressed in tin horn..Now they don't check any of that stuff.You can use any booster that you might find in another make of GM car.
The only rules are the throttle bore size, the venturi size, and oh yeah, the boosters can't be "too shiny" .
There are some guys that are real good with these, like Deano, but I think you're doing the right thing by learning them inside and out. If you have to work on the carb at the track, you want to be familiar with them.

NB will be picking up his T 200 soon, from another racer that lives north of Phoenix. He does a great entry level transmission ;-)

We're moving right along now. NB might be able to test this thing in a couple of month, if Wild Horse re-opens.

TBC