The death of bracket racing........
 

Saw a post on another site relative to "your thoughts" on what is killing bracket racing in America today.....thought I'd toss it up on here.....mine.....NHRA!!!!!

They continue to drive the cost of competing through the roof and/or render your combination ineffective at the stroke of a pen....it is happening across the board whether it is some sort of "class" car or a purpose built bracket car.

None of us are immune!!!!!!!!

Re: The death of bracket racing........
 

Well dunno how NHRA is killing regular weekly bracket racing, but I can attest to how the economy and the Oil Companies are killing Divisional and National racing...between the cost of regular gas, racing gas and entry fees, travel expenses, its gotten wayyyy to expensive....

I dont mind the safety rules so much, I guess cause I usually have the stuff already (except the dreaded diaper rule when it came out), some of the other stuff thats legal then its not is kinda stupid...

And of course if you want to be a chaser vs being chased, its really a lot tougher cause there are more and more 7 sec bracket dragsters out there...I finally get a faster (8.50 this year I hope) car and its still not "fast"...or if you're a footbrake guy running low 10's then all of a sudden its 9.00 then your the slow car again, and its a ton of money to go faster, when you;re already pretty fast...aint like going from 13.2 to 12.7 anymore....

Re: The death of bracket racing........
 

Top 10 Things Killing Bracket Racing
-- DISCLAIMER: This is just my personal opinion from observations and conversations with racers and track managements. Please take no offense. None was intended.


Top 10 Things Killing Bracket Racing




10. Division Director

Two decisions by the division director.

a. Dropping bracket racing from division races caused bracket racing to lose exposure.

b. Making it easier for racers to make the bracket finals without supporting a track.



9. Motor Homes

For the most part, this is strictly a perception deal, but if you're not outside when newcomers are walking by, wanting to inquire about your operation or racing in general. This loses the best marketing tool we have, which is word of mouth.



8. Junior Dragsters

Although we had some junior dragster racers move up, not near as many that have been participants made the move up to bracket racing. This is a theory my mothers had that anyone serious about their hobby usually only sticks with it for 10 years and in this case, those years are being used up in junior dragster.



7. Loss of Time Trials

In the golden olden days, you could hotlap your car and get your money's worth in time trials. Let me let you guys in on a little secret: some guys actually like driving their cars, and the current trend of two time trials or maybe one, then you have to buy a time trial, or run for the money, or whatever that want to call it, leaves you with little chance to test and tune your car, because you are worried more about consistency, due to the lack of time trials.



6. Organizations

a. NHRA

In the beginning, things they did really helped the local tracks, bringing in super gas and super comp really helped jump up the local car counts. But then they started going after the local racer by bringing in super street, and now they are going after the quick racers, top dragster, and top sportsman by dangling out gold cards for the champions. Thus hurting the tracks by them having to eat the gold cards and the loss of car counts.

b. IHRA

The IHRA went directly after the sportsman, which is their job, as they've seen a market for it, but it is something else for racers to chase, and once they get hung in a points battle, they will hardly run their local tracks.

c. Independent Series

I don't know why tracks let these independent series in their gates, because they're there for one thing, and that's to convert the racers at the track to chase his series, thus more loss of revenue for the local track once the circus goes to the next town.



5. Track Owners and Management

a. Owners

Racers didn't create the need for you to hire full-time staff. You have to hire a full-time staff because of all the nights you are open that are not bracket racing. A lot of tracks are open three and four nights a week. You're not going to hit a home run on every night. And if you're leaving bracket racing out of your special programs, you're not going to get any growth either. There was a time when most track owners wore all the hats. Chief Cook and bottle washer type thing, we felt we were part of the track. But now they all have management and we hardly ever see the owners.

b. Management

This **** of ?I wanted to do this or that,? but the owner wouldn't let me has got to end. Quit trying to play the racers off of ownership. Make only promises you can keep, and never tell the racers something's written in stone, until it is in writing. A lot of racers have spent money, or changed their plans for the next season, based upon your word. Make sure your word counts.
When designing a race, be realistic. If something needs 100 cars to make the payout, and you normally only draw 20 to 30, you might want to reevaluate your thinking. If racers are constantly splitting the payout, remember you need to evaluate your pay scale.




4. Marketing

We're just not getting any exposure. Something needs to be done to get spectators in, because those are our future racers. If we don't get more people watching, it will be the end.

The total abuse of the word ?guaranteed.? It is so unrealistic for the marketing department of a track or promoter to put the word ?guaranteed? on a program that there's no way they can reach the numbers. It leaves a sour taste in the racer's mouth, and they sure as hell won't want to help a track after that.



3. Multiple Entries

The beauty of bracket racing is it's one-on-one, and when all 4 staging lights are on, it doesn't matter how much money you have in your pocket. But when somebody can bring multiple cars, or buy multiple tech cars, this is another perception is reality. And I'd like to give a great example of this in action. Back when Bill had Green Valley, and Super Pro was still a small class, the tracks in this area allowed you to race two cars in the same class, as long as they were different cars. At the end of the season on a Sunday one year, when me and my opponent when to the tower to pick up our checks, Bill pulled us over for a little chat, explaining to us how he wasn't going to let us drive multiple cars the next year. (Between us and a few other racers, that would of cost him almost 10 tech cars.) When we asked why, and how he was going to make up for the loss of entries, he explained how he thought what we were doing wasn't fair to the racers that couldn't afford to being two cars. And he would make up the money with an increased car count he would get by giving the perception everybody had one shot. We laughed at that one as we left the tower, but he got the last laugh as car counts shot through the moon, after Bill made this bold move. Funny how history repeats itself. Buybacks and multi-entries are doing the same thing to bracket racing today that bring bringing multiple cars did back then.




2. Buybacks

a. In it's original concept, buybacks may have been okay. Tracks using them to make up for low car counts to help save the track. That is the most important thing. But that's not what they're being used for now, in most cases. The use of buybacks in most cases is to create a payout artificially to help a track keep up with the Jones', or make exuberant profits.


b. Since the inception of buybacks, how many tracks have actually outgrown? In fact, the opposite has happened. Tracks have started going to multiple buybacks, and multiple tech cards. And I hear some tracks are even going to third round buybacks. It's kinda like a cocaine addict. They start taking more and more, not realizing they are getting worse and worse. Buybacks are truly stunning the growth of bracket racing.


c. Listen to some of the comments the owners have: ?No one's twisting your arm to buyback, or a lot of my racers love it.? Well, the answer to the first: ?If you went to a Vegas tournament, and play slot machines against an opponent, and you were only going to spend $20, and the tournament allowed your opponent to spend $20,000, you probably wouldn't go back to that tournament.? To the second part, buybacks increase entry fee, thus increasing cost, thus running off more racers. And besides, when you look around the country, the most successful tracks don't use them. The rest of this buyback thing I could go on about, but it's obvious some owners are hard-headed and don't want to market their track. The first thought on their mind when laying out a race is how many buybacks and entries I allow. Sorry to be so tough.





1. The number one reason is: YOU

a. That's right, you. And I'm not talking about the whining crybabies. We all know what they're doing, because of all the enclosed trailers, 8ft privacy fences, bracket racing gets zero free advertising. And yes, I'm talking about you. How many times have you been in a restaurant and you see someone looking at your hat or shirt, and say ?Dear God, I hope he doesn't come over here wanting to talk about racing.?

b. The at***ude at the track. How many times have you been standing along the fence, hearing people say how great the ownership is, but the management sucks, not walk 10 feet away, and hear how great the management is, but ownership sucks? Other people hear this too, and the talk along the fence is way worse than anything I've heard on the Internet.
c. As bracket racers, we need to be WILLING to let the tracks incorporate us in part or as a whole with their special programs, I.E. Pro Mods, Back Halves, etc., etc. This is how we get exposure. People come out to watch the pro mods, and they realize pretty quick that they wouldn't be able to afford to do that, it would be nice if there was a class there running that would look more affordable to them.

IN THE END, IT WILL BE UP TO YOU TO SAVE BRACKET RACING! IT'S THE WAY IT'S ALWAYS BEEN, AND THE WAY IT WILL ALWAYS BE!



Thank you very much for your time,

Johnny Claridge
www.voy.com/96963/

Re: The death of bracket racing........
 

Johnny: I dont know how long you have been racing... but I can tell you this much..

I have been doing this for well over 25 years now, both of my sons are also into Drag Racing, My youngest is in one of your problems A Jr... the other has sold his Jr. and we just finished a Mustang S/ST car for him..

As for the deal on Motorhomes... I have one mainly because when we go race for three or four weekends straight, sometimes we dont even stop home between the races. therefore I bought a motorhome to tow my trailer.. Only problem I have is I dont have anything else that will pull the trailer, so we use the big ole motorhome when we go bracket racing as well...

As for Track Management/Ownership... I work closely with our track staff, they always have the best interest of the entire program at mind when they make a decision.. weather we all like it or not...

The only thing I can see killing bracket racing as we used to know it...

Is the payouts seem lower.. they really are not... they just seem that way..

and buy-backs... I hate buy-backs.... I have always looked at it this way.. IF you are NOT good enough to win first round GO-HOME... Same with Multiple entries... but I cant fault the guy who can afford thre top shelf dragsters..just because I cant..

Re: The death of bracket racing........
 

I agree with Dave Stelz with respect to some of the stuff being "stupid." Most recent display on part of the NHRA........IMO.......the change in the ET break for Pro eliminator, now posted as 7.50 to 13.99!!!!!

Two thoughts on this:

a.) safety....how 'bout a dragster at 7.50/185mph (with all of the mandated safety gear and equipment) getting loose, changing lanes and running into a streetable doorcar at 13.90/85mph with his OEM style seat belt and a tee shirt for protective gear.

b.) what is the incentive for my kid or yours to try his hand at drag racing when he shows up and gets knocked around week in and week out by someone willing to spend 100K on a dragster capable of all the aformentioned to run in Pro eliminator???

Re: The death of bracket racing........
 

It's not so bad, Our local track has no payout, not even a trophy. We run both Sat. and Sun. sportsman has maybe 15 cars show up, Pro averages 12-14 cars, and super Pro has between 1 and 3 cars. PER EVENT gentlemen!! It is an eighth mile track on the coast, with excellent traction. And I for one am damn grateful to have this track within a 15 minute drive from home. this is a privately owned facility, and you know he is not gettin rich here. so I guess what I am trying to say is thank you to anyone who gives me the chance to enjoy bracket racing in any format.

Re: The death of bracket racing........
 

IF instead of looking for whats killing bracket racing,maybe look into events that are done right. 3 immediatly come to mind and all 3 were succeses last year.
1. WFC this year on Memorial day weekend in Bristol,Tenn
2.Last Chance 10 k footbrake race race held @ Cecil County,Maryland
3. Piedmont Thanksgiving weekend footbrake race.
All 3 have a solid following,all 3 will be run again next year, all 3 are organized/run by racers.
I could go into bashing my local track (LVD)... but whats the sense.
B.T.W. I have nothing against electronics, class racing. I race footbrake because thats what I prefer and thats why all the races I listed are footbrake events.
Chuck Morris

Re: The death of bracket racing........
 

http://img292.imageshack.us/img292/9678/cometnm3.jpg

If this doesn't work go here www.voy.com/96963/

Re: The death of bracket racing........
 

Mongo
I am certainly glad your not bashing your home track. You dont want to be on the "naughty" list in the tower. In the end, those that could afford to, would race for trophies against who or whatever stages in the other lane. However with the cost of everything out of control, the only way you can justify spending the $ to go is to race for something thats worth it. I have seen a fair amount of race cars get parked or sold in the last 25 years and the reason was always the same. The "aggravation/cost" factor got to outweigh the"Fun" factor. If you have 60 points racers and only 20 points races, everyone doesn't get a win every year. Throw in a couple of sketchy management decisions that went against or screwed a racer, you can see why people move on.


Most tracks would benefit from a well written rule book and management that can apply them properly. Bracket racing will never die, but tracks need to find a way to put the fun back in to it. Racing on a safe, well prepped track for a decent purse is a good start. Weeding out people using illegal equipment irregardless of class is also essential. Why some one does not think using a "Davis" traction control box or the "Matty" ignition is wrong escapes me, but they are out there along with many other "innovative" cheating devises. People that are using these things are screwing everybody. As racers we need to police ourselves when something is not right say something, and T/M has follow up and do the right thing.

Bill Krug

Re: The death of bracket racing........
 

Merrry X mas to Mr. Krug and family! did Santa get ya anything good? I have second kid (another girl)on the way(due in early May). Hope to see ya along the road somewhere in '08 and good luck in the New Year.

Re: The death of bracket racing........
 

You've only demonstrated your total lack of understanding of those devices and bracket racing if you think they are of any benefit to a bracket racer these days.....15 years ago, the Matty RTDC was very useful, those days are long gone.

Now the Davis Technologies traction control and the Matty 4-step could be VERY helpful in heads up class eliminations of over powered, under tired combinations. ;)

Re: The death of bracket racing........
 

Or is it killing Drag Racing at the sportsman level?
Growing up with Drag racing we went to see someone "beat someone" and brag about our brand car and dream of owning a 409 or T-Bolt or Hemi Cuda.
Somewhere an enterprising person decided that allowing anything to run at the track included more participants and increased the income to pay the bills. It was "easier " and "less expensive" to Drag race.
It worked for a while. It soon became obvious that fewer came to watch and pay admission, fewer hot dogs eaten, fewer cokes and the gravy money was lost.
More and more car count became the object of the game to cure the finances if crowds stopped coming.
NHRA Thought this could work for them and continues to have more classes to allow one car or 10 cars which are outside the rules today to compete tomorrow. This waters down the picture even more. More purse needed to pay winners so outside race sponsors have to be found.More enty money needed.
Problem is it has become a participant sport. NOT A SPECTATOR SPORT> No cokes sold, no shirts sold, no Hot Dogs. even the OLD racers dont come to watch these cars and they are the ones who could appreciate the machinery.When the T/D and T/S cars draw off the S/C cars and S/g cars these classes will settle in and become same old same old again.Just fewer in other classes but total the same number of participants.
Grudge racing----Now its back to the same thing which started drag racing popularity. People wanting to use their hormones to show who is faster. Girls come to watch their boyfriends race someone. No stumblling, No break outs. No timers. JUST GET THERE FIRST. No Dial in. Cokes sell, Hot Dogs Sell and the tickets are sold without much need for payout. THE TRACK IS PLEASED and makes money.
Bracket Racing is dying its own death due to participant blindness. Lack of insight into the business side of their sport and with selfishness . " I want to run what I want to run so make me a class or give me shoe polish and I'll CALL it drag racing. If you race what you want and how you want you will be left without a place to race. I suggest helping to recreate a "SHOW" which can give you a place to race, money for the track and enjoyment to the spectator so all parts of the business can prosper...
It is time to have fewer not more classes, fewer not more places to race, fewer not more variation in rules so there is a SPECTATOR appeal not just a place to drive your car on Sunday.Both types of racing are needed but cannot be allowed to KILL each other....we would all lose at the Sportsman level if people lose sight of the need for appeal to spectators and Sponsors.
My opinion only Thanks

Re: The death of bracket racing........
 

Right on Dick. (That's old timer talk for "very true".)

Re: The death of bracket racing........
 

My opinion is that most believe they are beat before leave their home! They believe they cant beat a Richardson, Bogacki and so on! Costs are running out the intermediate racer! Buybacks? What the heck are they good for? When was the last time on a sat. nite at your local track did give any of the buyback bucks go to the purse? Be nice if the track would split up that $$$ Also the payouts are way too top heavy! Quit complaining get to the track and be part of the car count!

Re: The death of bracket racing........
 

I saw a guy at Food Lion a while back that had sold his car. I asked him why he sold it. His answer was I just can't afford to run my car for $1200 to win. The first two things that came to mind was.

1) The local track pays $1200 to win with free entry every Friday night. They have two rds of buybacks but it's still free entry ($10 gate fee).

2) This is what made me laugh. The guy never won a race. In fact I don't recall him winning many rds. Why should it matter what the purse was.


It goes back to what someone else posted the Fun factored finally lost out to the aggravation/cost factor.

Chip Johnson

Re: The death of bracket racing........
 

With 1000s of racers and everyone elgible to run 999 participants will be disappointed. People who have lost track of Class Racing missed the fact that these classes when they had 10 or 15 cars at any CLASS race at Nationals became mini Goals. Mini rewards . Every one of the 15-20 owners of a particular class car watched the weekly Dragster for news of their competitors on the East Coast or West Coast. They used their competitors et as mini GOALS. They worked nights on the car trying to surpass these "real " ETS. Their work had REWARDS to keep them running or working on the car.
Today with only 3 cars or less in a class in most cases the rewards are lost by not even knowing who is running where. No real class competition at National events are possible due to statistics. 100 classes divided by 400 cars in the US means 4 cars per. East coast gets ONE car in a class per event or West coast has one guy tow to run the event or may not even get an entry.
What is a Bracket guys mini goals? ............. SILENCE. Get to the track? Wax the car. NO one at the meet is a parallel combo to give you input on if you are achieving anything. Maybe you dont care, and that friends is why people will quit. The only goal can be the overall Win with chances of 1 in 50-75-1000?
See class racing has rewards for the racer mentally, which stimulate a sense of achievment while spending the money, spending the time and energy.
Think about going Class racing but pick one that has competition which can give you these encouraging rewards. Self esteem is about mini rewards and they are here if you really want them...
I refuse to Disclaim this one..... Dick BUtler

Re: The death of bracket racing........
 

Mongo
Congrats on your second child we hope all goes well, Christmas was good exept I worked Christmas eve so it was hectic when I got home at 8 am. How was yours? I think we are going to race the junior more this year so I will probably see you at some point. I may be headed your way to drop off a motor at PMR.

Mr Cook
I am no electronics or bracket racing wizard, nor have I used either box. but if you bring a 6.90 dragster that is de-tuned to 7.10 and is set up to auto-tune to that number as it goes downtrack, for that matter any car that is oblivios to track or air changes regardless of ET would offer an "BigTime" advantage. The Davis box alone, In a low 7 sec car on a crappy track where 9 second cars are spinning downtrack offers an unfair advantage. These days everyone wants to chase, hold a few and drive the stripe. With out these things the fast cars were at the mercy of track/air conditions, so driving the stripe was still a guess. I don't care if it's 8.90, 9.90 heads up or dial-in with a full tree, if half of the equation (the cars ET) is a "sure" thing and your only lifting if it is "in the sack" you are going to win rounds. Fortunately this does not always mean a win, so people that do cheat often have the pleasure of cheating to lose. As far as my knowledge of bracket racing goes, I was under the immpression it was supposed to create a level playing field for all participants. Unfortunately there will probably always be someone that has to "get an edge" on the rest of us, and will do whatever it takes. Have a safe and happy new year.

Bill Krug

Re: The death of bracket racing........
 

]I'm neutral on buy backs...take em or leave em.

Bracket racing will never be a spectator sport, it's a participant sport. Sit in the stands at a bracket race...boring.

The cost of racing in general is killing everyone. At the PRI this year, everyone was concerned, most companies are cutting back. I believe this is mostly economy-driven, when $$ was flowing we didn't mind spending. I would add that if you have a local speed shop, you need to support them all you can, they are still the lifeblood for many racers.

As far as cheating goes, hangem high when you catch em. You won't catch many but would feel good to see the names & parts made public domain.

Raising the bump smells. I didn't spend big bucks to chase a 13 sec. street car...talk about asking for it, do the math on the rate of closure...crashes waiting to happen.

Just my thoughts...thanks for listening.

Re: The death of bracket racing........
 

I agree with dick butler, you need the mini rewards so that you will keep coming back. I treat my bracket car like its a stocker. I compare it to the nhra cars that run in its class to make sure that my performance level is there. If we don't do that then we are doomed to bore ourselves to sleep which will cause us to loose interest in our sport. My car is just a sportsman car but it holds my interest and makes it fun to race. When it becomes no fun I will probably retire from racing. I hope that never happens.

Re: The death of bracket racing........
 

I agree with Dick Butler and even have proof. We race Stock Eliminator and bracket race locally at Milan Dragway Milan Mi. The IHRA Pro-am had a huge turnout of race cars but I never saw more than 100 spectators in the stands and I am sure most of those were racers and their family. However the first friday night of every month Milan has a Heads up night with 5 classes and a total of approx. 60 cars. This is a fast paced, exciting, good time for everybody event that has CROWDS of six to ten thousand people. A complete home run of an event because of HEADS UP RACING!!!!!!!
Buybacks suck no matter what!!!!!!!!!!!!! My local track has first round buybacks for $20. My suggestion is charge everyone $10 more entry fee and have NO buybacks and the track nets the same or more money.

Re: The death of bracket racing........
 

Louis, Thanks for your comments. Now people have to realize that there is life after Bracket racing for them . Just think what fun it can be to run in front of a crowd. get mini rewards mentally for gaining on your competition week after week by just tuning your car adjusting something.
Small gains can be their own reward. I had a GT/AA Camaro which started out running 10 sec area. Every week we ran I adjusted one thing at least. I used other cars as a gauge. In my case my daughters car. She gained .02 by weather I gained .05 meant a reward. I had learned something. I had accomplished something. When I sold the car it was capable of 9.42 143.50 at INDY. I have a nice collection of class trophies I EARNED by beating the "best" in the country at the same track. Great Rewards.... Now if we can reduce all Class racing to 5 classes of Heads up like your track imagine using the small rewards of gaining on the top dogs each week and the fun of running with SPECTATORS to appreciate your work.... Thanks Dick Butler
Come watch TOP/STK or TOP/SS at our meets. IT is a start in that direction...The other racers come up to watch "Time trials" never mind the actual racing. That confirms your thoughts too.

Re: The death of bracket racing........
 

Reasons for the death of bracket racing:


#1 Electronics
#2 Buy backs
#3 Big dollar races

And the main reason: THE ECONOMY
Drag racing is soley "disposible" income. The adverage family does not have that kind of disposible inccome.
Yes there are many "regular" people racing locally, but most are on the edge financially. They race instead of paying bills, it's like an addiction to some.
I figure that 85% of the people racing can't afford it, the other 15% are millionare's (ie. the Butler types). The millionare's are out of touch with reality, and for the most part the struggling economy doesn't affect them much.
What I see locally is the car count may look the same, but there is a shift from real race cars to street cars.
With $3.75 per gallon gas being said to happen by spring on the news, we'll see how that affects the "state" of the sport.

Re: The death of bracket racing........
 

Jrace,
It is common to see people post without their real name. Many have nothing constructive to add to the discussion and just want to see their Fake name in print. You were successful in doing that much. The other thing you do is try to create an "us versus them" attitude. Most will laugh at that. I do....
Drag Racing has been a major part of my life entertainment and challenges. I agree if you cannot afford to race, dont miss your payments. There is no money to be won, unless you excell in class or win elim or Bracket meet. Probably less than 5% of racers win money.
In class racing as it started it was important to sponsors, racers and spectators. Thats what created the prize money. In bracket racing only the guy driving is interested in the race, Thus no money. If you help recreate the interest of those who dont actually have money or skill to race a car, there can be a return of money for the racer. Nascar isnt for ALL people who want to drive, its for those who can afford it and the rest PAY to see it and the sponsors PAY to be seen. None of the cars has a box or breakout.
NHRA needs to recognize the difference between the participant racing of Bracket racing and the real need for Spectator and Sponsor attraction of Class Racing and "work" that difference for the good of real Class racers in S and SS so it can become important again. Not everyone will be able to participate but everyone can appreciate it and race at their level they afford.
Thanks....

Re: The death of bracket racing........
 

Dick,
Parts of your statement I believe to be correct. A person should try to push themselves to get small rewards in this game. You also should do only what you can afford to, and most don't win any money.
All of this is very correct.
However, they say history has a way of repeating itself. Remember back in the seventies when they ran off the records in class racing? What happened? Car counts dwindled and class racing was at a place where changes had to be made to survive. Top S/SS, Jr/Stk classes like these are great for special races. Like add in's to National Opens or even Divisionals. If our Boss stocker would fit in a class and be competitive we'd probably run it for fun. But if you try to make it the sole way to participate it will eventually suffer. Look at IHRA Top/Stock. It started out great then it turned into a keep up with the Jones' whoever had the most money best equipment won. That's great if you have the means to do it. Most people don't.
You seem to think it should be a special priviledge to run class. My family doesn't have the means to keep up with you or most others. Does this mean we should not be allowed to class race. Our Superstocker is plenty fast as a matter of fact it made the fastest under the index run in Superstock this year. So, for a little while we'd be more then competitive on a run off the record or index type approach.
You compare us to Nascar. Where, "it isn't for everyone that wants to drive." You're right it's not. But, they do have regional and local series to work you're way up the ranks. Is that not what bracket racing and stock, superstock racing is. Places for people race at the means they can afford. There are approx. 1200 Superstock cars in the country should 1000 of these cars have to find a different place to race because the other 200 think things should change. I love class and heads up racing and I'm for mild class consolidation. But if you try to limit S/SS to just a handful of classes it will disappear.
Bracket racing as a part of class racing is a necessity to survival. Sure more heads up races will keep more people in the stands for a while but eventually the races will be dominated by a small few. Then where will the sponsors and spectators be.

Rick Ryan

Re: The death of bracket racing........
 

Sorry Double Post.

Re: The death of bracket racing........
 

Rick, One of the hardest things to get across is that in no way do I believe Heads up racing in Sportsman level is the "Only kind of racing" I agree the index system helped save S and SS and keep it locally interesting. BUT..... the pendulum has been allowed to swing too far away from the part which can be used for keeping our "Show Value". We need dial in for eliminator. NOT FOR EVERY MEET without some "SHOW VALUE"
I could not predict how many classes "should be" in S and SS. There are just way too many. Its a statistical thing. 1000 cars nation wide divided into 200 classes = 5 per class nationwide. Hold an event and 2 might show(except indy). Say there were 40 classes and divide the same number of cars makes 50 cars per class nation wide. You could hear about competitors, gauge your accomplishments, Have class racing at National events which are more fun and challenge to EARN a Wally. Maybe a few Sponsors might even decide to reinvest in class money. Afterall they are now only posting for 40 classes not 200 right?
(Disclaimer: numbers are used for example)
Money: NHRA has inadvertently created enough classes to get people to stretch their budget past what it might take to race at an heads up only method. Some of this is our own fault. Some "wish " they could run Pro Stock and recognize the budget and quickly dont try it. Some think that if they only "need" to dial in they can afford the NHRA points meets and Nationals. These latter people will still be able to race but maybe they wont be as competitive at Class events but will still have the Points meets and Open events where they can enjoy the "driving challenge" of the dial in racing.
Those who think someone will pay them to enjoy their racing without a profit for the track from food, spectators or racer numbers are mistaken. If we recognise how the bigger picture can be helped there will be no need to sacrifice our racing locally or Nationally and it is my opinion we will HELP make it more fun and profitable for all.
Above all I feel both methods of racing need to exist but the balance is not currently there. By having opportunities to create a show again(TOP/SS, TOP/STK, Jr. Stk .....) choices can be made of which type of racing indiividuals prefer and be used to add spectator appeal.By Reduction of classes, competition can return to National events where "class" is run. This will also aid in making the AHFS more effective and everyone wins....
Thanks Rick

Re: The death of bracket racing........
 

Dick: the biggest issue I see with todays SS racing is the fact tht unless you have a high $$$ converted FWD car you get crap.. I have a Mustang that we run S/ST with car was intended to run SS but I cant use the tubular front end in SS, kida suks because IF I had built a Probe or any other FWD conversion car, I could have the best, lightest strut setup money could buy.. thus the rules are what is making it hard on some of us who want to run class, but simply cannot afford to build 80k racecars...

I agree you should only race within your means... I am most likely one of the few in our area who still build my own cars, engines and whatever else I can do to save a few $$$ so I can race a beter piece..

I would love to see NHRA/IHRA.. anyone come out with a heads up type class like class racing used to be in the mid-late 80's.. very strict rules, no one car clearly had an advantage... almost like the NMRA/NMCA have done with some of thier classes.. all heads up.. the one who can figure out the setup wins..

I used to race with a guy from Jersey, ran a SS/FM camaro, had more fun running that car, working on it almost every week to try to find a .002 somewhere.. went to the nationals he won class several others there. that was fun.. I ran Comp. for a brief time A/EA.. till they allowed the use of the Pontiac/Buick aluminum heads.. I could only muster a .2 under with a great set of steel heads, but everyone was about the same.. then all of a sudden the aluminum heads were .8 faster then the index got lowered..

I know we have to evolve as racers with todays technology.. but it seems to me that the powers to be dont allways allow the technology where it is needed.. ie. tubular front suspensions.. alot stronger, and safer than OEM parts..you would then have alot more crossover racers..

Re: The death of bracket racing........
 

Freddie, Problem is within the Gt versus SS rules. In order to "allow" FWD cars "allowances" were made.
It parallels you wish for one car, one set of rules being the challenge. Too many "allowances" here or there makes it LOOK lobsided. I agree if every class evolved together it would be better BUT then we are getting away from the real SS idea of original chassis again.....

Re: The death of bracket racing........
 

I couldnt agree more..

But if your going to allow it on one side then it should be allowed on the other as well..

Truth being told.. we got away from the original idea of S/SS racing a long time ago.. cars are no longer measured on haow hard a person works to achieve anything.. instead it has become who can afford to out perform the guy on top this week.. I for one dont want any part of a financial Pi$$ing match..


Back in the late 80's I went to a few brcket races.. more for test time on my setup than anything else.. as the new rules and $$$ got out of hand for me.. we became participants at the bracket races instead of just testing..

I personally dont cre for the super classes either, but until I either hit the lottery, or some rules drasticly change.. that is where I can race my two cars comfortably.. along with brackets..

Re: The death of bracket racing........
 

Freddie,
Good Luck at the track.... Thanks for the discussions.....Dick

Re: The death of bracket racing........
 

Kinda veered off course with all of the talk about "EARNING" a wally and how to make stock and super stock more spectator friendly...NEVER gonna make bracket or "class" racing a spectator sport......NEVER!!!!!!!

I'll beat the "class" racing drum for a moment........we've got a legal SS, albeit only 6-7 tenths under on a good day, sitting in the garage. Also have the finacial means, on clock puncher wages, to show up and participate. However, Freddie hit the nail on the head..."fianancial pi$$ing" contests....IMO equal BUYING a wally as oposed to "EARNING" it.

How bought this for leveling the playing field........dial in formats across the board......to include "class"and the "eliminator"....no more heads up??? Drive, back or luck your way(or as all of us will attest, usually a combination of all of the aforementioned) into the winners circle, at the end of the day.......any way you slice it......wally "EARNED" as opposed to wally purchased!!!!!

My mini goals or rewards..................win lights!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Re: The death of bracket racing........
 

Webster,
If only dialing in to race what would be the reason for having "rules". Thats what bracket racing is about. No set of regulations to show you can use to win. No other people running your combination. No one to set as a goal to work toward beating. Just dial it in and bracket race.
Not everyone feels that is enough. Not downing it as a "form" of dragracing but your original comments were how it is dying at local tracks. Others commented how their track has a heads up format which brings spectators(MONEY for track to stay open so you have a place to dial in race) Doesnt it appear both can exit? Couldnt letting Heads up who can afford have the race that draws in the spectators to pay and the others have a place to run their cars too.
Disclaimer: It isnt all about MONEY but some would like to claim it is.Most winners are skilled drivers, mechanics and happen to have a good job too.

Re: The death of bracket racing........
 

There are far more Stock and Super Stock racers at Divisonal and National Events that have shoe polish on their windows that don't and that is a fact....even when you count the few events that have heads up class racing. I know guys that have raced for 15-20 years that have never had a heads up race...never. Yes they have their class designation on their windows and like to call themselves "class racers" but the shoe polish says different.

If you go back and read some of the threads you will see a change in attitude on Class Racing. A lot of racers don't want to race heads up anymore. They want to build a car that will be at or under their class index and then put shoe polish on the windows.

Heck I can remember the day if you had the wrong badges on the car you were out or had to replace them.

All that said....I don't believe you should be able to race at the World Finals unless you have won at a Divisonal, National, or Sports National. Just because you have grade points should not allow you to enter the World Finals. The World Finals should be an event where only the best of the best race...but that is only my opinion.

Ron

Re: The death of bracket racing........
 

AAAAHHHH!!!!
Mike, please,please,PLEASE do not use that worn out line "too hard to understand"
If my 6 and 10 year olds can figure it out....well I'll leave it at that.
I get so tired of hearing that mostly from "pro heads up" guys. An (old) stock car racer lived across the road from me at my old place, he thought of trying dragracing. All he wanted to do was go fast/first one there. I explained that was heads up and most tracks around here "bracket" race. 5 minutes later he understood it, but wanted heads up anyway. It's not hard, some (mostly people who watch the pros on tv) are comfortable with what they've seen/used to. First guy wins...simple. Yeah and so is my $70,000 will beat your 20,000 car EVERYTIME.
Anyone in the maritimes can attest to what has happened to the Noonan nationals. Heads up format for a few years until it was obvious the same guys won each class year after year. Now there are both heads up and bracket classes there.

The death of bracket racing? Well my new local track is growing every year and it's not uncommon to see 2000-3000 people in the stands/on their own lawnchairs watching bracket racing.
http://www.nsdra.ca/index.php?option...d=62&Itemid=52

"This last race of 2007 was an absolute hoot !!! Total vehicle count (actual) was 259 with approx 3000 spectators for the weekend."

I'd love to run a stocker, but will have to run a bracket car until the kids are gone...

Re: The death of bracket racing........
 

This is copied from a post of mine on Bracketracecentral.com on a similar topic: I was asked to give a suggestion on what could be done to save bracket racing.

"For starters, I challenge everyone reading this to do one thing this season: Bring one person to the track who's never made a pass. Get them down the track in something. Even someone who's been to the track but never made a run. Do that, come back here, and write about it whether just telling who you brought or telling the whole story about how the day went or how you convinced the person to try it. Even if it's the only pass they will ever make, you will have made a difference. All I needed was a taste and I came back for more with no convincing. What kind of list could we have by the end of this season? How hard could it be to get just one person to try it? The hidden payoff here is that if your person takes to it and becomes successful, you know that you started it all. It might sound a little gay, but think how easily bracket racers can double in number..."
I would even add that you don't have to try and explain bracket racing initially. If you get someone to go down the track in their car or yours, and they like it, they'll ask you in due time what kind of racing you're doing.

Re: The death of bracket racing........
 

It sure needs help today

Re: The death of bracket racing........
 

If anything lately I have seen a growth in car count at our local track, which is very encouraging...

Even though our S/P count may not be what is used to be there are more than ever sportsman cars, and for some insane reason Jr. Dragsters...

Another thing to help drag racing along is as a seasoned racer take some time to encourage these kids racing thier hearts out for little to no money each week... some of these Jr's can cost upwards of 10K or more, and most race for a trophy or maybe $100. At our local track each week someone has been putting up extra $$$ for the kids, but not for a win... for best RT in time runs, or closest loosing rd in 1st rd... someting to reward kids that dont usually get anything..

And I like the other comment about take someone to the track who has never been down the track in a car... dont need to be a real fast car, but let them stage and drive down the track ... they will be back...

Re: The death of bracket racing........
 

Top 10 Things Killing Bracketc. Independent Series

I don't know why tracks let these independent series in their gates, because they're there for one thing, and that's to convert the racers at the track to chase his series, thus more loss of revenue for the local track once the circus goes to the next town.
Johnny, don't knock it till you try it, I've been active in an independent series for more that 20 years. Since we pay the tracks their money up front and controll our own payout and to some extent police our members responses to on track problems they appreciate us.
Since we control our pay out we pay first round winners and have a points fund that pays the top ten at the end of the year. When the last time you got paid for winning the first round? or got cash for finishing 10th. in the points? We also usually have two races per weekend for one tow.
It true that we do try to convert other racers to our series because we offer a better deal than the race tracks and scantion bodies do and were also trying to up our car count and our payout.
We go to different race tracks to support those racers who support us If we just raced at the convient local track our car counts would suffer and our pay outs would stink plus, If a racer can't afford to travel and want to race with us when were at his or her track thats fine(many do)

I was once a bracket racer but I'll tell you some of the reasons why I don't bracket race much.
#1 Greed buy backs, multiple car entries, mutliple driver entries and lack of round monies are all based in greed, everyone wants to race for $10000 and they don't care if everyone else gets little or nothing.
#2 Lack of sportsman ship I have very rarely had a bracket racer shake my hand when I beat them and I have had some look at me like I had somthing growing out of my head when I congratulate the for defeating me.
#3 Racing someone who's total investment is $100 to race their Mom's station wagon, I have been in some gamblers races where I had to spot such people 9-10 seconds.

If you don't like the way things are going you can either take steps to change it for the better, quit and take your money to the casino or just bitch on line.

Sincerely

Re: The death of bracket racing........
 

I've been hearing about the death of bracket racing since I started hanging around this sport some thirty years ago. For that matter, according to many folks, ALL drag racing has been on the verge of death for quite some time. The invention of the internet has further compounded the predictions of it's demise. I still see some of the same people today that were at the track thirty years ago. If not them, I see their kids or someone that hung around with them. Sure some people have quit, but I'd be willing to bet there are more bracket racers today than there were in years past. Maybe not at your track,but if you total the tracks all across the country, there are more racers than ever.

I'll even go out on a limb and predict that most of us are dead and gone before bracket racing draws it's last breath.

Let's call it evolution. Yep, that's it. Bracket Racing is evolving.

Re: The death of bracket racing........
 

I dont' know outside of Texas, but in the houston area there are 5 tracks within 2 hour drive. The valley has 1, San Antonio has 1, Dallas area has at least a dozen. In the Houston area, most of the tracks waits until HRP sets their schedule before anyone else makes theirs. I can't speak for the Dallas area, but with that many tracks, the operators need to get together and schedule bracket racing on NOT the same weekends, or at least days. The valley has no problems and S.A. should not have any problems with scheduleing. HRP sucks when it comes toscheduling. They have 2 day racing, 1/4 mile on sat and 1/8 on sunday. Then they start timetrials after 3 on sundays. They have the slowest program around. Angleton is a 1/8 mile track,usually 8-10 jrs, 30-40 footbrake and 15-20 electronic cars show up on anygiven saturday. They start tt at 5, round 1 at 7 and are done by 11.

So my rant goes as the more tracks in the area gives more racers an option to go elsewhere. If the tracks would get their scheduling act together, more racers could show up at one track one weekend and another the next. One track having a bracket race on weekend gives another a chance to do something else.