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-   -   I Need Help With A Math Problem (https://classracer.com/classforum/showthread.php?t=84903)

Larry Hill 05-20-2023 08:45 PM

I Need Help With A Math Problem
 
A good friend of mine has a heads up in Stock second round. So for fun I looked at the HP rating of his competition. Much to my surprise the 1970 Camaro 350/360 in Super Stock was de-rated from 360hp to 325hp 12/19/02. I know the AHFS was in affect at that time and according to the rules: a competitor my have requested a reduction in Hp rating. The scale for reduction was based on the year’s previous runs by that combination. The reduction was written as 1.25% if the fastest run was quicker than -.165 under the National index and the class average was below -.550. If the quickest run was -.115 to -.164 under the reduction was 2.25%. So to receive a 35 Hp reduction using the 2.25 % I believe the start Hp would have to be 1555hp. Would y’all mind running the numbers to check my math. And for example a 15 Hp reduction on an engine rated at 420 the start Hp would have to be 666 Hp. I wonder how all this happened with the AHFS in affect?

tommy d 05-20-2023 09:37 PM

Re: I Need Help With A Math Problem
 
Wouldn't the 420hp example have started out around 480 hp? I'm on par with Jethroe Clampett math wise though.

junior barns 05-20-2023 11:18 PM

Re: I Need Help With A Math Problem
 
If what you say is accurate about hp reduction then you are correct, 360hp at 2.25% should have received 8hp reduction not 35. been that way for 20 yrs Watched this race earlier and if not for a red light itwas going to be a close race! What does that say about the car's hp in the other lane? Both cars are fast and a LITTLE under factored!!!!! LOL

MR DERBY CITY 05-21-2023 12:01 AM

Re: I Need Help With A Math Problem
 
Larry, you don’t have a math problem …Your problem is Pat C ….If you need HP off a combo contact Jim Hale for help…he can work miracles….

Billy Nees 05-21-2023 07:11 AM

Re: I Need Help With A Math Problem
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by MR DERBY CITY (Post 680649)
.If you need HP off a combo contact Jim Hale for help…he can work miracles….

Yeah, the 383 and 426 Street Wedge got about the same amount of "welfare".

james schaechter 05-21-2023 09:43 AM

Re: I Need Help With A Math Problem
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Larry Hill (Post 680642)
A good friend of mine has a heads up in Stock second round. So for fun I looked at the HP rating of his competition. Much to my surprise the 1970 Camaro 350/360 in Super Stock was de-rated from 360hp to 325hp 12/19/02. I know the AHFS was in affect at that time and according to the rules: a competitor my have requested a reduction in Hp rating. The scale for reduction was based on the year’s previous runs by that combination. The reduction was written as 1.25% if the fastest run was quicker than -.165 under the National index and the class average was below -.550. If the quickest run was -.115 to -.164 under the reduction was 2.25%. So to receive a 35 Hp reduction using the 2.25 % I believe the start Hp would have to be 1555hp. Would y’all mind running the numbers to check my math. And for example a 15 Hp reduction on an engine rated at 420 the start Hp would have to be 666 Hp. I wonder how all this happened with the AHFS in affect?

Both of those cars have the ability to punish the index at will. I think it will depend on who wants to spend some of that hp today.

Dave Casey 05-21-2023 09:58 AM

Re: I Need Help With A Math Problem
 
This is just one example among many across all brands that this has happened to. It was over 20 years ago by Larry's info,, so who knows. This particular engine is the original LT1, 360 in a Camaro and 370 in a Corvette, in 71 they had less compression and were 320 and 330 if my memory is correct. I believe that the stock and SS rating may have been both lowered at the same time. There are some running in both stock and SS.

B Parker 05-21-2023 11:27 AM

Re: I Need Help With A Math Problem
 
Being a performance person, these races are ones I look forward to seeing. Jerry and Andrew have been great drivers for a long time. Too bad Jerry just barely missed the tree. It would have been interesting two really fast cars. Runs like these should be more the norm. Great to watch and guess who will win on that given day. It's too bad the AHFS the way it is written now for me has ruined a big part of Stock I enjoyed. Now almost everyone is trying to go .65 to .85. under. Sad to watch !! I don't get it. BP

Mark Yacavone 05-21-2023 11:33 AM

Re: I Need Help With A Math Problem
 
Mr Hill doesn't seem too worried about it, running 1.01 under , and putting himself in the hp pool this morning.
Keep it up ,and maybe the 400 Pontiac, with NO aftermarket heads will catch up a bit.

Larry Hill 05-21-2023 02:30 PM

Re: I Need Help With A Math Problem
 
The point of the post was how does a combination receive a reduction of 35 Hp in Super Stock using the rules as written wit a maximum of 2.25%. The starting Hp would have to be 1555 Hp X 2.25 %=
34.9875 rounded up 35 Hp reduction. How does that happen and how did it happen on a 420hp reduced to 405 Hp.

Billy Nees 05-21-2023 04:24 PM

Re: I Need Help With A Math Problem
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Larry Hill (Post 680673)
The point of the post was how does a combination receive a reduction of 35 Hp in Super Stock using the rules as written wit a maximum of 2.25%. The starting Hp would have to be 1555 Hp X 2.25 %=
34.9875 rounded up 35 Hp reduction. How does that happen and how did it happen on a 420hp reduced to 405 Hp.

I'm gonna guess that certain people have friends in very high places?

GTX JOHN 05-21-2023 05:18 PM

Re: I Need Help With A Math Problem
 
Those Camaros at 350/325 can thrash our 340/314 Mopars at will!!!

Billy Nees 05-21-2023 05:30 PM

Re: I Need Help With A Math Problem
 
and I'm pretty sure that a 383/330/281 in H/I/J WITH an available Edelbrock head could win any heads-up race that it got into.

and the same for a 426/365/300 in G/H/I WITH the same Edelbrock head available.

Larry Hill 05-21-2023 05:34 PM

Re: I Need Help With A Math Problem
 
NHRA needs to realize that favoritism and special treatment outside the published rules will kill the Stock/ Super Stock sport. Everyone suffers from Elephant’s Memory.

MR DERBY CITY 05-21-2023 05:41 PM

Re: I Need Help With A Math Problem
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Billy Nees (Post 680680)
and I'm pretty sure that a 383/330/281 in H/I/J WITH an available Edelbrock head could win any heads-up race that it got into.

and the same for a 426/365/300 in G/H/I WITH the same Edelbrock head available.

You’re spot on Billy, and don’t forget the generous GIFTS the 302 Feeee Fords received. With one stroke of the pen Good Ole Captain Jack aged 10 years.

Billy Nees 05-21-2023 05:55 PM

Re: I Need Help With A Math Problem
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Larry Hill (Post 680681)
NHRA needs to realize that favoritism and special treatment outside the published rules will kill the Stock/ Super Stock sport. Everyone suffers from Elephant’s Memory.

What I believe we can ALL agree on is that there are bogus, for lack of a better word HP factors on many combos across the board. IMHO, there needs to be a "fix-it" clause put into the AHFS system to take care of these "mistakes"!

Lonnie, are you listening?

Larry Hill 05-21-2023 06:36 PM

Re: I Need Help With A Math Problem
 
There’s a fix it clause, it’s the Hp reduction part in the AHFS. I got my pink car competitive staying with in the published rules. Like they told me that I needed to work on my car and I did. So how does NHRA fix all the racers that have lost to these combos that got reduced outside of the published rules. I know I lost a heads up finial at Indy to one of these special cars, and it still bothers me.

Billy Nees 05-21-2023 08:29 PM

Re: I Need Help With A Math Problem
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Larry Hill (Post 680685)
There’s a fix it clause, it’s the Hp reduction part in the AHFS.

I don't mean that we need a "fix-it" clause to give MORE combos BACK HP!
We NEED a, call it an "oops" clause or an "aww s#!t" clause or a "reset" clause to undo the HP give backs that some combos have already gotten!

Larry Hill 05-21-2023 09:00 PM

Re: I Need Help With A Math Problem
 
But meanwhile back at the ranch, we ,all of us, are getting hosed by decisions made outside of the rules. I.E. Number 129 qualifier at Indy that did not make the elimination cut. The racer that should have advanced in elimination but got pounded by a gift car in a heads up race. NHRA go by your rules and fix the screw ups.

GUMP 05-21-2023 10:12 PM

Re: I Need Help With A Math Problem
 
Dumbo is begging for HP.....

jim morgan 05-21-2023 10:31 PM

Re: I Need Help With A Math Problem
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Billy Nees (Post 680680)
and I'm pretty sure that a 383/330/281 in H/I/J WITH an available Edelbrock head could win any heads-up race that it got into.

and the same for a 426/365/300 in G/H/I WITH the same Edelbrock head available.

Billy that Edelbrock is not available and if you could find them they are not legal out of the box

Larry Hill 05-21-2023 11:07 PM

Re: I Need Help With A Math Problem
 
GUMP if I can get Dumbo to move in 60' a little quicker it will be ok. At the BG Sports I'm going to try a set of ported heads and a SS intake to see if I can wake him up.

Casey Miles 05-21-2023 11:18 PM

Re: I Need Help With A Math Problem
 
If I remember correctly, the 350/360 as rated at 390 or 400 HP back when we raced on street tires, around 1973. I remember that because nobody was racing them because of the HP rating. The '69 Z/28 302 is rated at 309 HP now and to race a '70 Z/28 which is rated at 320 HP, there is 110 LBS difference between the cars with the '70 having 48 cubic inches more with the same engine manifold, carb and heads. It's one of the biggest loss of power than any other engine combo.

Casey Miles
248H Stock

Adger Smith 05-22-2023 02:39 AM

Re: I Need Help With A Math Problem
 
Casey I didn't bother checking, but I'm pretty sure there was a difference in the intake lobes on the cam between '69 Z-302 and '70 Z-350. I think it was around .030 less on the 350.
Might be a little harder to feed those few extra Cu in.
Still soft...IMHO

Casey Miles 05-22-2023 11:10 AM

Re: I Need Help With A Math Problem
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Adger Smith (Post 680700)
Casey I didn't bother checking, but I'm pretty sure there was a difference in the intake lobes on the cam between '69 Z-302 and '70 Z-350. I think it was around .030 less on the 350.
Might be a little harder to feed those few extra Cu in.
Still soft...IMHO

The now away cams, the .050 doesnt make a difference, if it was when we measured duration it might, but there's no substitute for cubic inches. If you use the same ratio of factory hp to the nhra rated, the 360 hp should be nhra 383 hp. The ratio is 1.06 on my advertised 290 hp to get to 309 nhra factored.

Casey Miles

Billy Nees 05-22-2023 05:46 PM

Re: I Need Help With A Math Problem
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by jim morgan (Post 680694)
Billy that Edelbrock is not available and if you could find them they are not legal out of the box

Hi Jim! I hope all is well! I'm pretty sure that IF someone were willing to pay enough money for a set, a set would appear. BUT, if they're "not legal out of the box" then why are they legal? ;-)

HR9121 05-23-2023 11:06 AM

Re: I Need Help With A Math Problem
 
Happy Birthday to the great mathematician Larry Hill!

Brett C 05-23-2023 08:38 PM

Re: I Need Help With A Math Problem
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Larry Hill (Post 680673)
The point of the post was how does a combination receive a reduction of 35 Hp in Super Stock using the rules as written wit a maximum of 2.25%. The starting Hp would have to be 1555 Hp X 2.25 %=
34.9875 rounded up 35 Hp reduction. How does that happen and how did it happen on a 420hp reduced to 405 Hp.

Mr. Larry,
If this bothers you this much, why not go to the source instead of an open debate forum?

And Happy Birthday!?

Larry Hill 05-23-2023 10:13 PM

Re: I Need Help With A Math Problem
 
Brett.
I would really like to know who decided to go outside the rules and favor one or two racers. So do you think I would get any kind of answer asking NHRA, but I will try.
Thanks so much for the birthday wishes. We hope to see y’all soon. Safe travels and good luck.

Brett C 05-23-2023 10:43 PM

Re: I Need Help With A Math Problem
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Larry Hill (Post 680784)
Brett.
I would really like to know who decided to go outside the rules and favor one or two racers. So do you think I would get any kind of answer asking NHRA, but I will try.
Thanks so much for the birthday wishes. We hope to see y’all soon. Safe travels and good luck.

Not sure of what answer NHRA would give you, but as much as I enjoy this site, the answer you seek will not come from here.
All the best!

nolongerracing 05-24-2023 12:42 PM

Re: I Need Help With A Math Problem
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Larry Hill (Post 680784)
Brett.
I would really like to know who decided to go outside the rules and favor one or two racers. So do you think I would get any kind of answer asking NHRA, but I will try.
Thanks so much for the birthday wishes. We hope to see y’all soon. Safe travels and good luck.

You may want to call the "paint shop" in Ontario first!!

Jack McCarthy 05-24-2023 09:12 PM

Re: I Need Help With A Math Problem
 
while yall got your ciphering hats on (jethro was bodine not clampett) explain the 30+ hp reduction jan 2014 on the 302 2bbl fffords ???????

rendering a perrenial 40 year class competitor totally useless for class eliminations :(

thank s
jack

Shadylane 05-24-2023 10:26 PM

Re: I Need Help With A Math Problem
 
[QUOTE explain the 30+ hp reduction jan 2014 on the 302 2bbl fffords ???????

Jack, if it’s any help, I have personally given back 13 of my 30 hp gift! I started as a natural U car and now I’m a natural R car. If I keep this up I’ll barely be able to run the index in another 5 years.

Your friend in horsepower.
Kelly

Dave Gantz 05-25-2023 01:47 PM

Re: I Need Help With A Math Problem
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Jack McCarthy (Post 680818)
while yall got your ciphering hats on (jethro was bodine not clampett) explain the 30+ hp reduction jan 2014 on the 302 2bbl fffords ???????

rendering a perrenial 40 year class competitor totally useless for class eliminations :(

thank s
jack

That's right about Jethro. "Hey Uncle Jed!"

4406mopar 05-30-2023 02:03 AM

Re: I Need Help With A Math Problem
 
Are your sure all the HP came off at once, or was it multiple reductions over many years.

Jack McCarthy 05-31-2023 09:51 PM

Re: I Need Help With A Math Problem
 
really funny that one / two combos in D/SA GOT -30HP AND 9632 people care enough to view respond to larry's post ....

but when over 300 combos of 302 2bbl fords get -30hp (all fit u/sa itslast v-8 class) no one but me is pissed ...

minimum 2-3 top 10 qualifying spots at indy including several #1s but its only me beating a seemingly dead horse :(

captain

Charlie Yannetti 06-01-2023 07:53 AM

Re: I Need Help With A Math Problem
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Brett C (Post 680785)
Not sure of what answer NHRA would give you, but as much as I enjoy this site, the answer you seek will not come from here.
All the best!

Not sure of what answers you may get from NHRA, as wasn't it them that made this move in the first placer??..

I think there are better educated responses here, rather than some Johnny Come Lately that NHRA believes knows their stuff, just because they know somebody and got a position.. just my opinion..

SS734 06-01-2023 02:49 PM

Re: I Need Help With A Math Problem
 
Guys,
The last sentence in the AHFS explains the math.

"Adjustments are rounded up to the nearest full horsepower even if the fraction is below 0.5 horsepower. As an example, 2.15 horsepower is rounded to 3 horsepower. The quickest run, by the combination being reviewed, is used to determine the adjustment percentage. The decision to adjust horsepower or to increase the index will be at the discretion of the AHFS Committee.

Billy Nees 06-01-2023 06:32 PM

Re: I Need Help With A Math Problem
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Jack McCarthy (Post 681085)
really funny that one / two combos in D/SA GOT -30HP AND 9632 people care enough to view respond to larry's post ....

but when over 300 combos of 302 2bbl fords get -30hp (all fit u/sa itslast v-8 class) no one but me is pissed ...

minimum 2-3 top 10 qualifying spots at indy including several #1s but its only me beating a seemingly dead horse :(

captain

Oh come on Jack! I can feel your pain!

bubski 06-06-2023 08:18 PM

Re: I Need Help With A Math Problem
 
Unfortunately Larry !! Archimedes couldn't help you or anyone with this "math problem" We live in the world of upside down !! How is it possible ?? that a 66-283 with more compression an a bigger carb rated at 1 HP less than a 60 -283 ?? or a steel head 69 Camaro rated more than an aluminium head engine ?? Not to mention those FFFords who defy math as we know its !! Cheers !!


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