What would it take for you to attend a Sportsman Race
 

I'm asking this because I'm really sorry to see Ken give up on his Race. I understand why but I would like to see at least one more. And I'm willing to put my money were my mouth is. This year more so than any other with the new AFHS and the low car counts allowed at Nationals we could use one.
With the NHRA Schedule the last couple of years especially in our Division it has made it tough to Schedule and Run a race and have enough to support it for it to be successful. Plus we also have a couple of very good Associations in the mix. I'd like to find out what the reasons were that we didn't support his race or others that were put on like this one. And are there changes that could be made to make you go to another one.

For me it's not necessary about the money. It's a time factor. I love to race as much as most but it's hard for me to get away from home almost every weekend.

Tylers race was just to far for me at that time to make. I was a sponsor if it went off last year.

Bo and companies race was not long after Gainesville and I had just gone to those races along with a weeks vacations with my wife. For me if it was later in the year I would have made the effort to make it.

I didn't make it to Ken's race last year because I had planned on so many others. It worked out great the year before being two weekend of races in a row. I rented a car and went home in between the two. The ride to Numedia with the roads so bad really sucks by Motor Home. I love racing Top Stock and was a little disappointed he didn't have it last year. I understand it didn't have the support the first year but hoped more would show up last year.
Hind- Sight is always 20/20 but if I knew Kens race was not going to be well attended last year and he would not do another this year I would have changed my racing plans to make it.
I'd like to hear from others what would need to change for you to make it to another Sportsman Race in D1 like Ken's race. Thanks Barry

Re: What would it take for you to attend a Sportsman Race
 

Class eliminations would motivate me.

We would have run the first of Ken's races if the 2015 Camaro was allowed in Top Stock.

Re: What would it take for you to attend a Sportsman Race
 

I, too, am disappointed that there will not be a CRN this year. I finally have a car that runs below the index without breaking every run, and I am consistent enough that I won't totally embarrass myself. I would run a sportsman race anywhere within 1000 miles of home, if I know about it in enough time to work it out. Am seriously thinking about going to the SportsNationals again this year. I think having class eliminations at a race like this is a great idea. I am perfectly content to run the divisionals, the ASRA races and the NED brackets, I will run the Epping National race next year, if I get enough grade points this year, but it is not that big of a deal to me if I don't make it. I am racing to have fun and hang out with the folks. If I am lucky enough to win a Wally/trophy someday, that would be cool, but I am just as happy to win a few rounds here and there and swap war stories with the folks parked next to me.

Re: What would it take for you to attend a Sportsman Race
 

A race or races with higher payouts than Lucas Oil and National Event races are great.

Re: What would it take for you to attend a Sportsman Race
 

Barry, Good Question. I think the only way I would be able to attend a race like this in Division 1 or any of the really distant divisions would be in conjunction with another race or two in the same geographic area. It’s a LONG way to anywhere from south Florida. I attended Bo’s race after Gainesville and really enjoyed it. I was hoping it would be held again. Perhaps if the individual groups promoting these race got together and put a four or five race series together with a championship more people would attend. Scheduling is critical to the success of these events. 100+ temps don’t excite anyone. I applaud the people that have tried to promote these races and hope there are more of them. I have wondered how a challenge race between the Carolina Class Racers and the Southern Stock Super Stock Association at South Georgia or Reynolds for bragging rights would turn out. I think it would be fun. I also think with the recent changes to the AHFS class eliminations would be a benefit. It seems to me the key to successfully promoting these races is controlling cost. I haven’t tried to promote on so I don’t know for sure but my guess is the track expense and purses are the two biggest expenses. Is it possible to piggy back or partner with another series to reduce the expenses. I know sponsorship dollars are hard to come by but I think they are essential. These are just my random thoughts in no particular order. I hope we get lots of replies to this thread and lots of good ideas. Perhaps some of the people who have tried to promote these events could provide their thoughts on how to make one successful. Mike McMahan 2543 H/SA

Re: What would it take for you to attend a Sportsman Race
 

Yo Ken, wanting to run this years event, as i could not attend the last two, moving, covid, etc. I hope you might re-think this, as i would love to make it in 23'. Thanks, & happy new year Glen H

Re: What would it take for you to attend a Sportsman Race
 

The first Class Nationals had Class, Top Stock, and to win the eliminator it took eight rounds.

For us working on new car and distance were big factors for missing Ken's race.

The Sports Nationals Open in the end of May is a very good race. I think it has class for Stk/SS, plus a separate eliminator for each. It has The Clay Jones race $5000 to win and a BIG CHECK. The Clay Jones race is a combo race with Stock vs Stock and Super Stock vs Super Stock until the late rounds. In case its a heads up round its just like Indy. The year we got to the finals, that was the only time we had to race a S/S car.

Beach Bend is the best family track in the USA. An amusement park, with a wooden roll a coaster, a great family pool, a camp ground with full hook ups, almost forgot a great 1320'.

Access is good a few easy miles off of I65, close to I69, little south of I64, and a little north of I 40.

Make plans to be there! Come early and stay late and skip the Holliday traffic.

I don't know this but Top Stock might be an option.

Re: What would it take for you to attend a Sportsman Race
 

SFG Promotions seem to be working pretty good with bottom heavy payouts scheduled for this year.
Maybe we can get Kyle Riley, Pat Joffrion, Bo Butner, Jason Line, Dave Connolly, Ken Miele, Michael Beard, and others that promote drag racing to somehow come together in a zoom meeting or phone calls, come up with a series for Stk/SS in different geographical areas.
50 car quota at a race, really. Only a $2,000 purse with a high entry fee. Four days to complete a single race. This is what we get with a national event, and people can't even get in due to low grade points.
I know a big $$$ races would work for Stk/SS, a lot of cars out there. We have to try again, because if we don't, we won't be racing at all.
It killed me not to be able to attend the Sportsman race because the car wasn't even close to being ready. Can't understand why racers wouldn't attend.

Re: What would it take for you to attend a Sportsman Race
 

Great post, Barry.


And it is great to see honest answers.


Sitting here reading, and contemplating breakfast, I think maybe it came to me why there are successful big money independent bracket races, but rarely are there successful independent Stock and Super Stock races.


The big bracket races don't have NHRA LODRS and National Event races to compete with.



I can understand that. If you have a Stock and/or Super Stock car, you obviously almost certainly built it to compete on the NHRA circuit. Let's be honest, that's where the races for these cars are. There are small independent races and series that are places to race. Our home track, Bowling Green, has a great Combo series, with regular one day and two day weekends of racing. But everyone built or bought their car to run NHRA races. And I'm not saying there's anything at all wrong with that. I'm not saying that anyone is wrong to choose to support NHRA over everything else. It's your money, your time, and your car. You should be doing what you enjoy most with it. And I'd be a fool and a liar to say that I wouldn't love to get that Wally we can within about 0.004 seconds of. I'd be a liar to say that I want "revenge" on Indy for that bad year we had there. I get it. I'm not at all opposed to running some NHRA events, even though I know we can't chase it like we once could, and we're not going to go broke trying.



Honestly, competing with NHRA is really our biggest barrier. So almost everyone is going to try to run their Division LODRS races, the National events in their Division, plus "prestige races" like the Gators, and Indy. NHRA is the biggest obstacle, bigger than time, money, weather, or the calendar.



So what we have is an extreme scheduling/time/logistics problem. Given how many races NHRA runs, and how their schedule is pretty much late February to late October, I'm not sure that it is possible to successfully overcome that one big issue.


Someone suggested a series. That's a great idea, in that it might, just might, be possible to schedule a series that runs its races when a given region isn't having NHRA events. So when NHRA is in Divisions 1,2 and 3, there could be a race in Division 6 or 7, etc.



Here's the problem. What needs to be done is to gather some guys who are Stock and Super Stock racers, who also have successfully promoted races, and see what, if anything, is possible.


So who you need though, is a "dream team". You need Peter Biondo, who has successfully (with Kyle's help, RIP brother) run the Spring Fling Series in several regions. You need Bo Butner, Dave Connolly, and our own board owner, Ken Meile. And ideally, you need Michael Beard. I'm sure that I have missed someone. I know a few of those guys, I've never talked to them about this. Other than we've had a few "in passing" conversations about how this is nearly impossible to pull off.



The next question is, do all of those guys want to take on a project like this, and do they have time? Of course, they have to ask themselves, is it worth the effort? It's a massive undertaking, and a huge risk. Especially given the most common result. For sure, not a single one of us can blame any of them if they shook their heads, laughed hysterically, and walked away.


Also, when you realize that NHRA is currently not even releasing a full 2023 schedule, you have to ask, "how do you schedule even one big race for class racers?" If NHRA were to decide to schedule even an LODRS race on "your weekend", within even 1,000 miles of you, you're pretty much done. You and the track are going to lose a ton of money. Honestly, NHRA has absolutely zero reason or incentive to cooperate with any of this. You pretty much have a large, and mostly hostile competitor, who has the resources to wreck you if they decide to.



What the racers absolutely must understand, is that it's never going to be perfect. The brutal facts are, not every race will have great weather. Not every race will be in your back yard. Not every race will be completely free of conflicts. But the reality is, every race will have to be well supported.


One other thought. It's too late for 2023, really. The fact is, this is something that you need to work on scheduling and setting up for at least a year. We're asking someone to spend a ton of time in 2023 trying to work with, say 3-5 tracks, to schedule 4-6 races to cover the regions. And then they need to spend 3 solid days next December at PRI walking the show with a package to try to sell to potential sponsors, and let's be really honest, this is probably not the best economy to do this in.




I'll agree with Larry Hill, the Bowling Green SportsNational Open is a great race to pattern an independent race after. It does prominently feature Stock and Super Stock. Having class eliminations is a huge bonus. Running Top Stock and Top Super Stock races is a great idea. And a bonus race is also a great idea, it gives those who can't win class and those who get eliminated from the main race something else to race for. If you're running only Stock and Super Stock, there's time for all of that in a three day race. And it allows you to offer something for most every competitor. The only problem with an only Stock and Super Stock event is down time, which the fans do not like.





This post is probably pretty negative to most people. But what we're talking about has been going on for a pretty good while, and the results haven't changed much. If anyone has evidence to the contrary about what I'm saying, I'm all ears. I'm not trying to argue or berate anyone. I'd like to see independent Stock and Super Stock racing succeed, and on a large scale. It would be great for all of us. I'm sure that NHRA would not like to see it. Real competition would be a problem for them.

Re: What would it take for you to attend a Sportsman Race
 

Kyle Riley and SFG promotions promote races that cater to bracket racers. That is ONE of the reasons that SFG is so successful. Bracket racers ACTUALLY show up to race for BIG $$. The late Alex P. Denysenko is the ONLY promoter that hosted a large scale stock/superstock race that was successful. It was a ONE and DONE in 2001. Lee Zane,Brian Van Poppel, Bo Butner, Jason Line , Dave Connolly , Michael Beard and Ken Miele all promoted large stock/superstock races that were NOT supported by the stock/superstock racers. History shows that they WILL NOT be supported in the future, it’s time to move on. One promoter that I have omitted is 25 year old Tyler Bohannon. He promoted a stock/superstock race in 2021. He had a wonderful vision, a hard working team , a CIC race, sponsor give a ways, the race was held at a beautiful track and he too, LOST MONEY. Beating his head against the wall, Tyler has another stock/superstock race scheduled this August in Madison,Illinois. Here is your big chance Ron ……it may be your last …..with warmest regards ………MJ …..

Re: What would it take for you to attend a Sportsman Race
 

After doing this with Ken for 3 years here is what we've learned it takes...

•It has to be at a facility that is reasonably close to everyone in the country.
-but the facility has to be flat and level for parking.
-and the facility has to be "fast".
-but the facility has to be easy to get to from the highway.

•It has to be a weekend that you can loop it with another race.
-but it can't be too close to other races because then it’s too many in a row
-and it can’t be too early in the season because no one is ready
-but then it can’t be too late because then everyone has encountered problems
-but then it can’t be in the middle because there’s too many races
-and it can’t be this weekend or that weekend because it’s my nephews bar mitzvah

•It has to be a weekend with a good forecast.
-but then it can’t be too hot because then it’s too hot
-and then it can’t have a 1% chance of rain because then people don’t want to sit in the rain
-but then it can’t have a head wind because then the cars go slow
-and then it can’t be too sunny because then it’s too hot

•It has to be a reasonable entry fee for reasonable pay.
-but then it can’t cost too much because a lot of racers are on a budget
-and it can’t cost too little because then it’s not worth the wear and tear
(basically, it needs to be $15 to enter and $15,000 to win)

•It has to be on the weekend because people can’t take off work.
-but then it can’t start Friday because people have work
-and then it can’t start early Saturday because people don’t want to drive through the night Friday after work to get there
-but then it can’t end late Sunday because people have work Monday

With all due respect and no offense, THERE IS NOTHING ANYONE CAN DO TO PLEASE THE STK/SS COMMUNITY. You all deserve NHRA and the **** they put you through.
$350 or $200 to enter
$100 for your wife
3–4-day long events
1 race
BUT A WALLY!

See "ya'll" at Gainesville!

Re: What would it take for you to attend a Sportsman Race
 

nailed it!!!!!!!

Re: What would it take for you to attend a Sportsman Race
 

Even though this is a back east thread. We have lost so many tracks out west here. Which in turn we have lost racers and race cars. Larry has the right idea and location. The word fun has to be more than the one person winning the race. I was at Bowling Green over 30yrs ago and it left a great memory. Steve McGrath was driving my Volare. Top Stock and class eliminations are great spectating racing and of course we build class cars to be the best in class. We can E.T. race at home. Class racing and fun. Sign me up.

Paul Haszlauer

Re: What would it take for you to attend a Sportsman Race
 

Thank you to all on this post. Fantastic input. The last few posts have totally summed it up. Thank you.

And now, back to our regular scheduled programming.

Ron Ortiz
U/SA can't wait to see you all.

Re: What would it take for you to attend a Sportsman Race
 

Barry
I think an association race like Dave Ley’s race or the ASRA races in D1 are great.

Maybe at either one or both they could have one race that you pay double and that’ll
make for a bigger payout.

One of Dave’s races that used to be at Englishtown was the Bigger payout race.
Now that big money race is at Atco.

The great thing about Ken’s races & why I liked coming up from Florida is:
He Only Ran S/SS cars and it was 2 separate categories, no offense to any other categories.

Another thought is: Since the Dutch Classic is a Big Hit with car counts maybe the weekend
before you can have the S/SS race ?? Providing it doesn’t interfere with MG’s schedule.

Just my 2 cents.

Re: What would it take for you to attend a Sportsman Race
 

If you scroll a little lower on the main page here, there is a group of stock/SS associations, I personally have run All Star racing association, and Carolina Class racer Association, the payouts are great, they are fun to attend, low stress, some have heads ups and some don’t. But what I see is that there seems to be something like these associations in each division. Like Tim and Ken have mentioned, you aren’t going to make everyone happy, but maybe we should support these associations more, I can say that each one I have attended get anywhere from 30-50 cars, I can also count a large number of cars or guys who do not attend these races I go to even though they live local, why is that? Who knows but it’s time to support these groups as much as possible before they disappear. Then what would we bitch about?

Tim Stickles

Re: What would it take for you to attend a Sportsman Race
 

Nice post, Paul. It's great to see some love for our home track, especially from people so far away.


I have friends out there, it's a shame that with all that land, you guys have lost a ton of tracks, and have to drive eight hours to race, on a good weekend.





I'm a bit biased, because it's my home track. And this only applies really east of the Mississippi.


But Bowling Green absolutely IS the ideal facility for a Stock and Super Stock race. They literally host a ton of the combo races every year, plus the SportsNational Open, and the Indy tune up LODRS, they love the cars and classes, and they know them. The central location is great, and the track is easy to access. The parking is great, even for 1,000 cars. The track is reasonably fast in decent weather. There are plenty of affordable hotels, motels, and restaurants. There's even a recreation park for kids.



Ideally, you could have a $100 test and tune on Thursday, and even throw in a $100 to enter combo that night. Open Friday for tech, a couple of rounds of qualifying, and either run class, or another $100 to enter combo.


I really would rather see class run starting at 10:00 Saturday morning, just to allow people who want/need to make a two day race of it the opportunity to run for class. This despite my belief that people hard core enough to run for class are going to come in Wednesday night to be ready for the $100 test and tune (yeah, you Larry Hill :)). In conjunction with class, there's time for at least 2 qualifying shots for everyone, so if you choose to roll in on Friday night, you still have a qualifying shot in each lane for the big race. And you even have the opportunity to run at least one bonus race, even if you choose to make it a two day race.



Then start eliminations on Saturday evening, 1-2 rounds. Have another $100 to enter bonus combo on Saturday night, especially good for anyone who didn't make it past rounds 1 or 2.You could also run Top Stock style racing Saturday night in conjunction with the $100 to enter combo, to eliminate down time. Or, run a big money $500 to enter combo. And finish the main race eliminations on Sunday.


Seriously, at Bowling Green, you could pack in a ton of racing for a big field of cars, without it being a hassle.


Think about it. A main race, say $250 to enter, that includes class eliminations. Plus 2 to 4 $100 to enter combo races. A $100 test and tune session, and maybe Top Stock style racing ($100 entry fee, 2-3 classes each in Stock and Super Stock). One location, one weekend. With a chance to decide how much to race and how much to spend.





For those east of the Mississippi, and even 300 miles west of it, you can't really beat the location or the facility, and it's capable of hosting a huge field of cars, and a bunch of racing. It would be cool to offer a lot of different races, so everyone has multiple shots at going some rounds and winning some money.




Nah. Never mind. Fletcher is right. It's not perfect enough. And there's no wally.

Re: What would it take for you to attend a Sportsman Race
 

Hey Paul,

I know the tow was a bit too long for you, lol, but the Class Racer Nationals was the only thing at the track on those weekends, as it was a stand alone event. It had two separate races each day for each class, best losing package prizes, second chance races, good early round money, Top Stock one year (a whopping 6 cars), a free qualifying race last year that paid great, free racer wife entry, big checks to the winner and runner up, longest tow award, etc, etc. This event was not even remotely all about just the winner.

I watched first hand the time and effort that went into this deal. They tried everything to make this a fun race for all, and everyone that was there, including your old driver, said it was a great event. But all they got was less cars attending as the three years progressed. This was never about making money, Kenny and Timothy just wanted to put on a race that was the sort of deal EVERYONE would enjoy. I heard Keno say from the jump he didn't care if he lost a few bucks, he just wanted to do it.

As my Dad would say, some people would bitch if they were hung with a new rope...

Re: What would it take for you to attend a Sportsman Race
 

I think Tyler’s race has the best chance for success. He just needs some good weather and a good weekend. That track is a much better location to attract racers from a wide area. The Numidia location is good for the D1 racers but has limited interest from other division racers. For me it would be at least a 24 hour tow. My limit is about 14 hours. Atlanta would have been a great location but we all know what happened there.
The last few years have been very difficult for all businesses. The Covid crap and then the huge inflation with fuel prices doubled. All this has an effect on peoples ability to travel long distances. I think this has a negative effect on last years Class Racer Nationals.
There is a couple of independent associations that are healthy. CCRA and the East Coast association are both well attended.
I don’t know what the break even number for Ken’s race was last year. Or what the actual count ended up being. Most divisional races struggle to get above 70 cars in each class. To get 100 car fields in each class you have to be able to pull from several different divisions.
The only way to really make any of these private races work is to have sponsors to assist with the cost of the track rental and improve the pay out structure. That way the promoter does not have as much exposure

Re: What would it take for you to attend a Sportsman Race
 

Dan none of us can disagree with what you and Tim have said. Including myself, I think there are a lot of races that are now looking back having regrets for not making it to this race. Everything you said about the race is true. It was great!! Even though it would have been really tough last year for me to make it. I felt I would make it next year not giving it a thought that there would not be a next year without out the support it needed to have Last year. It's our own fault. Not anything that Tim, Ken or the track did.

WE THE RACER LET THE RACE DOWN!!

I hope there is a way to salvage something to look at and maybe give it another try. If not this year next year. I don't know about the rest of you but this has really opened my eyes.
For those that can't see it, Stock and Super Stock is on a course to self destruct at the National level. We need races like this one. Thanks Barry Parker

Re: What would it take for you to attend a Sportsman Race
 

Mike I totally disagree with you. This was not a race for those that needed to travel days to get to. D1,D2,D3 have more than enough cars to support a race like this one. I'd bet we have more Stock and Super Stock racers in those 3 Divisions than the rest of the country. As I stated above we the racers let the race down. No excuses that is it in a nut shell. BP

Re: What would it take for you to attend a Sportsman Race
 

One thing that appeals to me is cool spring or autumn weather, I think Class Racers Revival in St Louis is in August....ummm
Some may want to take a look at the Midwest Class Racers series (below) 2023 schedule posted
Usually $2000/win ea day(some are 4K) 2 days, one tow; they do combine s/SS

Although in the midwest, Earlville, Iowa (2 events w/National Open) and Eau Claire, WI are not too far west, both have great pit space (flat!)

Eau Claire is owned by a racer and been really renovated,super hook, had about 100 cars last year

The Wally is an attraction, I made a special(colored glass) trophy for the first CRR that could be special keepsake...or somebody commission one that has appeal

just some thoughts

Just an option

Re: What would it take for you to attend a Sportsman Race
 

Barry,
I'm sure that you know, Mike is a Division 2 racer. A long time Division 2 racer. The tough thing about Division 2 is that maybe half of the racers are in southern Georgia, southern Alabama, or Florida, and we know how far south Florida goes. That's the problem with Division 2.


But yes, racers let these races down. Regardless of location.


Here's the deal, the more I think about it, the more that I believe it is true.


A race that cannot yield a wally is apparently never going to compete with one that can, for a large portion of the Stock and Super Stock racers. They're going to drive further for a shot at a wally, on the same weekend, or on a different weekend. For the same or less money.



We ran the SportsNational Open one year, against, if I remember correctly, a rescheduled LODRS in Atlanta. While the SportsNational Open outdrew the Atlanta race, which did poorly, there were a ton of racers, Division 3 racers, who literally drove right past the SportsNational Open at Bowling Green to get to Atlanta. The payout at Bowling Green was the same. It was an NHRA event. As a bonus, NitroPlate paid at least $5000 to win the Saturday night Clay Jones combo.


Independent races apparently cannot compete with the wally, for a lot of Stock and Super Stock racers. Even with more money. Even with a better atmosphere. With better treatment. With more chances to win more money. Apparently, if you beat the exact same 6-8 guys to win a race, the race with the wally means something, the other race doesn't. Regardless of pay. I suppose it is a fact that we all have to learn to live with. There is a large percentage of our group that will literally skip a closer, well funded independent race, on a pretty weekend, to use that money and/or time off, to drive further, to an NHRA race where they're treated as riff raff, and paid less. Sad but true.




The best thing that we can do is understand that fact, and figure out if there is a way that anyone can successfully put on an independent race, or races, and make it financially viable. It's a tough economy, which makes sponsors recalcitrant, or hesitant at best. Without sponsors, who will demand serious car counts, it's impossible. Maybe someone will be willing to answer this question: At $250 to enter, how many racers does it take to make a 2-3 day independent race a better than break even deal?

Re: What would it take for you to attend a Sportsman Race
 

Alan all good points. With Ken and Tim not doing their race this year maybe it will open more eyes. Gainesville should also be an eye opener. This is the direction our Classes are going. BP

Re: What would it take for you to attend a Sportsman Race
 

My last $.02 on this deal...

The race had MANY sponsors. Thats how they were able to have the fantastic payouts and prizes they did.

I realize Florida, New Hampsire, Washington state, etc are on the edges of the country. I lived in NY on top of Lake Ontario, as in 30 miles as the crow flies from Toronto. I get the travel concern better than anyone.

Let me just put this out there. At Numidia, the same facility that hosted the Class Racer Nationals, there was a divisional event two weeks prior. 96 Stockers and 69 Super stockers in attendance. The week prior at Columbus (not too far down the road) there was the Sport Nats and divisional with a very marginal, dare I say horrible weather forecast. 139 Stockers and 103 Super Stockers. The following week for the Class Racer event with a perfect weather forecast? 55 cars total between the two classes.

The people have clearly spoken...

Re: What would it take for you to attend a Sportsman Race
 

Barry, I agree with your thoughts that both those races not being run, and with the Gators shutting out so many races, that this year might be, and should be, an eye opener for a lot of people. And it could be a harbinger of the direction things are going. That thought saddens me.



I don't know if I'm right or I'm wrong in my conclusions about why people aren't coming to independent races. Those are just observations from talking to people at various locations, trade shows, speed and machine shops, and the races, and reading what people are posting on the forums, as well as just what I've seen over the years.


We're fortunate here to not only have Bowling Green willing to accommodate and support Stock and Super Stock, but also to have a pretty good bunch of racers support the combo series at Bowling Green, as well as having a couple of sponsors support the series over the years. Kevin and I were very fortunate to do pretty well in the series, too.


I would absolutely love to see what we have at Bowling Green spread, and grow.


I do sincerely believe that the race that I described is absolutely possible at Bowling Green, possibly more so there than at any other place. As you said, there are a ton of cars in Divisions 1, 2, and 3. And Bowling Green is probably as good a location as you're going to get, if you're going to draw from all three divisions. But we need someone besides me to believe in that and promote it. We need a Biondo, a Butner, a Connolly, or a Bohannon to promote it. Or maybe some combination of them.


As it stands, looking back over the past 15 years of information and experience, I think that maybe there's enough devotion to Bowling Green, and enough potential there, to pull off a big race. Bowling Green is successfully hosting a bunch of big events. It stands to reason that with the base it already has, and the success it has with other events, that Bowling Green is the facility that can pull it off. My hope would be that if one facility can pull it off, there might be other facilities with the right locations that could use the model.


I get that Ken worked with a track in his area, same with Michael. But right now, I think the key to getting one of these races to really thrive is sort of like the key to real estate. Location, location, location. Honestly, I think that if the next big attempt isn't at least moderately successful, there won't be any more attempts. So I don't think you can go very far south OR north from a relatively central location such as Bowling Green. Because you are correct, it must draw heavily on Divisions 1,2, and 3.


I'd be thrilled to hear other people's thoughts on all of this, I wish more people would speak up. That's how I learn. The perspective of other people. That's why I asked the question about how many cars we have to draw to make a race better than break even. Barring miracles, you're not going to have a Stock and Super Stock race make a track and a promoter wealthy, for damned sure not the first race(s). But you damned sure have to keep the track and promoter from going broke, and you have to have enough cars to keep the sponsors at least interested. I've watched my friends go from booth to booth at PRI, trying to get sponsors on board. That's a tough job.

Re: What would it take for you to attend a Sportsman Race
 

FYI, your $0.02 is very much appreciated, just like your efforts, at least by some people. I'm sitting here pecking away at some projects, while I try to recover from my treatments, hoping that I can figure out a way to get our stuff back to the track. And now hoping we'll have places to race. Thanks for posting and sharing your thoughts, and experience.


And some of us get exactly what you're saying. It's really heartbreaking to put in that kind of effort, and offer that kind of payout, and not even get 25% of the car count. That's truly sad. Worse is what it says about the possibilities for racing. You'd think that racers would do better than that to support fellow racers trying to do something for them.

Re: What would it take for you to attend a Sportsman Race
 

Don't forget that the bracket races Also offer double entry's and buy backs along with some other perks that won't work for class racers. These help the promoter make it financially.

Re: What would it take for you to attend a Sportsman Race
 

I read all the responses and I can only share what we have learned running NWCR in the PNW.
We formed Northwest Class Racers Association with the goal of providing a Stock, Super Stock series for class cars. We held three races in 2022. Paying from the bottom up, first round winners got some cash. Winner 2,000, RU 1,000 and some very nice custom made throphys.
What we found was , there were a group of class cars, ( mostly Stockers) that were very supportive and attended all the races.
Fewer SS cars and no very high end and expensive to maintain Super Stock cars.
Keeping in mind in the West it can be a long tow between tracks.
I did talk with some of the SS guys. Some indicated the cost to run their equipment, saving it for NHRA races etc. I as well felt there was a reluctance to run against 14 -15 second, 5,000 dollar stockers for some.
We did have one race the conflicted with NHRA Divison 6 rescheduled Divisonal at Mission it caused a lower car count at both races.
What we found was paying more guaranteed money , does not guarantee a larger car count.
Class cars that can make 100-150 plus runs in a season will make as many races as time permits. Class cars that can make 30-40 runs a season will not show up.
Different I believe than tracks back East, schudling a Stk/SS event at a West coast track has been very challenging and frustrating. I will not mention tracks, but when tracks kick back part of the entry fee for Bracket events and refuse to do the same for a Stk/SS combo event
it says a lot.
Lastly, the effort to put a class association together, manage it etc is very time consuming. All involved do it "Pro Bono". Many of the racers are very appreciative of the effort but lip service does nothing. if you run a Class car and you want to see Class racing continue and grow outside of NHRA, I urge you to get involved with your local association and help make it happen.

Steve Teeter NWCR Stk/SS 620

Re: What would it take for you to attend a Sportsman Race
 

I’ve always wondered why no class runoffs at this race?

Re: What would it take for you to attend a Sportsman Race
 

That's why one of my posts mentioned combo races, and a test and tune. Bowling Green usually hosts a test and tune in conjunction with the LODRS and the Open. It would only make sense to host a test and tune at a class event.


And the evening combo races are the equivalent of having a bracket program and buy backs. The $5000 to win Clay Jones combo draws a pretty decent field, as Larry stated. Given the right opportunity, there's a segment of the class racing community that will run "extra" and bonus races.



In the post where I expanded on a possible format, what I suggested gave the racer, for one tow, the opportunity to run 3-5 races in a weekend, and control what they spent. Spend $250 and run one race over 2 to 2-1/2 days, or spend up to $650 or so and run 3-5 races, with a shot at $2500, up to maybe $7500, or more. And it lets the promoter and track have a chance to make money on multiple races, and keep a show going for a while for spectators.

Re: What would it take for you to attend a Sportsman Race
 

Yep that year, my dad , my son and I drove 5 hours instead of 2.5hours. We had a great time as always at BG

Re: What would it take for you to attend a Sportsman Race
 

Back in 2013 I think? My son and I attended the Northern Class Nationals in Columbus put on by Michael Beard. We got the long tow award. 21 hrs or so to get there. I put together the SS/K shootout. While we didn’t have a successful weekend with the (we broke everything possible on it) we had a great time. It was a fantastic event. Michael and team had an amazing number of sponsors. There was extra bonus races etc besides the S/SS races. I loved it because I got to see and meet people you only read about or see on Nhra tv etc racing. I really really enjoyed and was very frustrated and felt so bad for Michael and his team especially when the second one he put on was poorly attended. I too was guilty of not attending that second one and I’m sorry for that. For those with S/SS associations in your division you are fortunate. We don’t have one here in D4. I don’t have the resources, time, or the expertise to start one. I don’t even run SS anymore but my heart is still there. Every race I attend I always go to the starting line for SS. It’s just a special class. I don’t have the answers. I do know when I put on the SS/K shootout I got 27 sponsors on board. It was a lot of work with a lot of no’s. But I was persistent and got all I could. It takes a lot of time and effort. We should all be a little more appreciative of the work these men and women put into these non-NHRA events.,Good luck and safe racing to everyone this year. After 4 years away, I will be racing this year. Look forward to seeing everyone at the track.

Re: What would it take for you to attend a Sportsman Race
 

Stephen, that race did at one time have class eliminations, Kevin has 2-3 wins, I have a runner up to Donnie Beeler. They were replaced by the Clay Jones combo a few years back. I think the Bowling Green staff felt that they couldn't get class eliminations AND the combo done in the same day. There have been several instances where the delays have pushed racing later into the night than they would like. You can race after 10PM at Bowling Green, but they don't like to, and I don't blame them. It's kinda over time for them and the staff. They also like to have all classes complete two rounds by the end of racing Saturday night.


Of course, if you were only running Stock and Super Stock, as we're discussing in this thread, you could run class during the day on Saturday, as part of qualifying, get two rounds of actual eliminations in, and still run a combo, and possibly even Top Stock/Top Super Stock in the evening.

Re: What would it take for you to attend a Sportsman Race
 

To Tim, Ken and all that were involved in running the race I apologize. Theirs not a good enough excuse why I was not there last year. Especially for someone like myself that loves racing Stock as much as I do. It doesn't matter where the race was held. The Management from NHRA was smart enough years ago to devise a point system and hooked most of us in. But when you look at it what really are the points worth? Unless you are really putting in the effort to go after the Division Championship or a National top ten. The points in the end are worthless. Then years later they came up with the grade point system. I get they wanted the participation at the Divisional level in order to get into National Events. But now with the low car numbers allowed at the Nationals unless you have a grade of eight or more what are grade points really worth. Lets face it unless we do something to help ourselves our classes have an expiration date. You guys gave us an opportunity to race at an Event with a good pay day and no BS about points to get in. All of us Class racers need to take a better look at races like this one. And realize the people putting them on are doing it for us. These races should not only be at the top of our list to make but also sponsor in anyway we can. BP

Re: What would it take for you to attend a Sportsman Race
 

I think the promoters do it to make a profit and all of us racers want them to make a profit so we can race with them again the next time.

Re: What would it take for you to attend a Sportsman Race
 

About all I would need is for the race to be less than a thousand miles away from me and not conflict with a division 7 race.

Sometimes other schedule or budget constraints might stop me but generally that would do it. But out west here it's not so likely.

Re: What would it take for you to attend a Sportsman Race
 

Perhaps a bit of perspective from a outsider here would be helpful.

I'm a outsider? Well I didn't grow up watching my dad do it, I just started doing it 15 or so years ago.

So I don't have the same experiences that 98% of the forum does. I run a small business like many and 100% of the money in it is mine and at risk so I can relate to the promoters, tracks, sponsors and the racers. At least I should be able too!


BUT, I have supported a lot of these races, over the years that were listed when I could. Big $ opens too in Canada which also suffered from poor turnout but have not been previously mentioned......got grade points and got to compete for up to 25K at one open...........10K many times at Napierville, Beards, Tylers, Kens, the allstar race that paid 10K for $100(right Barry?), etc etc etc


Why? How could I not? Its just fiscally irresponsible to not go and try to compete for the best return on your ahem investment, support fellow racers, and go and experience the labors of love that have been put on.....Some of the best times at the track have been at these events, they are so enjoyable in so many ways.

I do think its possible though for a race of this nature to be successful....but it would have to have a different focus.....Stock and Superstock may just need a 501 c 3 formed to try and preserve the heritage. Putting on a race for the benefit of the charity.....Support it or it will go away......

Perhaps the racers can support Tyler's race......I'll try. Its another labor of love event. Its not like he can pencil in a rate of return for like his other races that cater to their bracket racing events...

FYI racers, actually the NHRA experience isn't as bad as you paint it to be, considering whats involved with putting on a event. Don't like the national event crowds, and schedule etc, go to a divisional, don't like them, go to the opens, go to the the association races........

Go to stay sharp, for the independent races that you WILL be attending in the future correct?

Eric

Re: What would it take for you to attend a Sportsman Race
 

Re: What would it take for you to attend a Sportsman Race?

To have At least more than O N E Sportsman Points Race in California.
Bakersfield is a double and thank you.

Re: What would it take for you to attend a Sportsman Race
 

I am still of the mind that all divisions need a Sports National's. A race with all the NHRA trappings, tech, record setting, grade points, division points and Wally's. Believe it or not the racers that are in Stock and Super Stock are there for that recognition. To make it monetarily viable there needs to be some draw. More payout, contingency would make some difference money wise. The big dollar races that don't have these trappings are just money races. I am not saying that they don't have a place. The long and short of it is we built NHRA Stock and Super Stock cars and that is difference between class racers and bracket racers. The biggest problem with this is NHRA. Has anyone tried to get in touch with the division contacts lately? I tried before and after the holidays and no response. Until they decide we deserve a voice we are up a well known creek.