Shipping weights
 

Can someone explain to me why we need shipping weights for Stock and Superstock anymore? I would love to hear one good reason. I mean a combo can already move up or down one class from its natural class. If someone can get extra weight out of a car/combo why should they be forced to run a heavier class. Or here is a though just rewrite the current rule to make it where you can move up or down 2 class's higher or lower then your natural class. you people are making this way harder then it needs to be.

I mean no shipping weights for cars in SS/GT appear to be working with no issues. Why not just eliminate factory shipping weights all together?
I mean its pretty simple take your (NHRA HP) x (that class weight) plus 170lbs and that's your min for that class. Pretty simple

I can’t see people adding 200-400 lbs to make their cars slower. I believe this was brought up a few weeks ago to the SRAC committee and Kent Hanley and Mike Crutchfield were the major reasons this was shot down. Which is funny because they both compete in a SS class where factory shipping weight are not used.

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Charley, stop trying to make it to easy for them lol, I’m very surprised Hanley and Crutchfield were against it if that is true. Makes sense to just get rid of the shipping weights, solves all the problems and makes everything fair.

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Herbie I was told from 3 different people that set on the SRAC board for stk and ss that it was easier to agree with the 2 of them and move on, then waste 45 more mins of the call. I have no problem calling them out. Maybe they will post here and clear things up. I mean they both email D1 and D2 racers notes from these calls

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I agree, they wonder why the newer generations aren’t interested in stock and super stock, they make it a Math test to be able to figure out just what class they can run, maybe it was useful in the old days but I know guys racing for the last 30 years that still have a hard time trying to figure this out, why can’t we just simplify things? Oh, because that’s too simple

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This is actually a good post.I was thinking the same thing.
Stock Eliminator has got so far away from it roots,that it really doesn't matter anymore.
What I would like to see is the elimination of the 170 pounds for the driver in the minimum weight.
Example: My horsepower rating is 350.G weight break is 350x11=3850 pounds.Just weigh 3850 and forget about another 170 pounds for driver.How many people weigh 170 pounds anymore and who cares anymore?
When class racing started,it was advantageous to build certain cars like convertibles because they "FIT" certain classes.
But now,you can go up one or down one.If someone wanted to go up two or down two,I don't see what difference it would make at all.

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I agree with getting rid of the shipping weights. Stockers today can weigh much less stocker from years past. Lighter transmissions, replacement seat, aluminum heads, the list goes on and on. These old shipping weights just are not aligned with todays race cars.

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All the Mopar cars I've built. They are real good when it comes to the 50/50 scale number I'm looking for in its natural class. If I work at it I can make it a good car in the lighter class given. Getting a 340 1971 Duster down to 2680lbs is out. So all the A/SA cars can rest at ease.

Paul Haszlauer

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I said this last week all they have to do is get rid of shipping weights. Either allow two classes up or down or if they want a limit make the lightest the car can be x amount of lbs less than shipping weight (gt rule is 2670 minimum but most stockers tend to be heavier cars) The shipping weights will never and have never been 100% accurate. The reasons I’m sure could be from politics to just plain errors. Even on older cars, it seems that older numbers being 100% accurate seems unlikely.

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I understand them going back to the old shipping weights because of cars that have been running for over 50 years would now be gone, that would not be fair. What’s not fair is cars that have been in the guide for over 40 years wrong and they correct them and then change them back knowing they are wrong. I will just have to summit my review of the car I have because it has the wrong shipping weight and is in the wrong natural class. Two wrongs do not make a right, get rid of the shipping weights and keep all combos in the guide is the only way to fix this mess.

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From what I have seen on the AMA sheets not all manufacturers use the same formula to figure shipping weight. Some use curb weight minus gas and coolant, some used a figure they turned into the states for licensing and tax purposes, some appeared to use 95% of curb weight. An earlier car of the same manufacturer’s was figured differently than a later vehicle by the same company.

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Maybe to keep good car engine/combos from dominate yet another class!
When they changed the rule to be allowed people to move up one class in addition to move to down a class I can't help feel that some good cars got a little bit hurt by new combo's previously not allowed to battle in that class .
But lots of people maybe like this to be an "few combos field" in the end...:p

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Great post Charlie. I'm not racing anymore but I know that would have made my life a lot easier and enjoyable!

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Mr or Miss Race Clean that is about the weakest /vaguest argument for needing shipping weight so far. Basically your saying Please don't run my class it not far, that you have worked on improving your car and lighting it up over the years. My combo should only be allowed to run at the top of the class.
Could you give all of us an example of this. I'm pretty sure that most classes have 3-4 combos in each class that run a the top of the pack. with the exception to classes with slower then 13 second indexes just because of lack of car count in those classes

Also please try and use you real name (this goes for everyone with an option on this for or against). This is a going to be a real issue with STK and SS if this shipping deal is not handled in a way that is best for the class and its ability to keep current and new racers coming back to a sport we all care about.

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Just two questions to go with this "eliminate the shipping weights thing;

Will the Tech guys be checking for ballast? And will they be tossing cars out that are carrying over 500 lbs.? It's a "General Regulation".

How long will it be before the Racers that want to do away with shipping weights are wanting fiberglass and carbon fiber parts so that they can lighten up their combos and making it "fair" to their heavy combos that can't compete with the light combos?

If this passes, it WILL be the beginning of "E.T. 2 to the lanes"!

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Just drop the 170 rule.

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Charlie, at this point seeing how NHRA has and will most certainly continue to handle the situation moving forward, I believe that you are on the right path, in all seriousness. The following should be put in place for 2023 season.

1. Get rid of ALL shipping weights...if you can fit between the max and min for the class your in!

2. Get rid of all 1/2 lbs weight breaks and make ALL classes 1# weight breaks. More cars per class, more chances of heads ups and less classes to manage for NHRA. Perhaps this might entice manufacturers to come back to sponsor class runoffs? If not, at least it will minimize the mathematics for all involved.

3. Combine stick and auto. Automatic transmissions and convertor technology has come along ways in the last two decades. This again would streamline our classes and allow for more heads ups and less for NHRA to manage. It seems to be working in the FS, FSS and FGT classes.

If we are going to use forward thinking to resolve issues within the organization, then mean it...LOOK FORWARD!!! not just in the now. Rip this whole deal off like a Band-Aid, give everyone this season to make the necessary adjustments and there will be no more arguments...well other than AHFS but that's another thread! LOL

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There has to be a maximum weight for every combination to keep racers from doing silly things....

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And a minimum too.

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(1) You can only have 100lbs of loose ballast including weight box, if your attaching more than 400lbs to the frame you should be in a upper class. (2) You can ask for fiberglass hoods and doors with or without shipping weights and I’m sure the answer is going to be a No. Modified, FGT and GT have no shipping weights and bracket 2 has not been called to the lanes. I had the same fears as others when the did away with shipping weights in GT, nothing has changed just made more guys happy.

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Billy its not 1975 anymore. Eliminating shipping weights is way different then asking for carbon fiber hoods and doors. I agree let tech get hard on a ballast max weight, make sure that racers are following the 100 total lbs weight box rule. Just enforce the current weight rules. But at the end of the day its has to be easier in NHRA and the racer for this class to make it. The days of 15 plus NHRA tech guys that an event know the STK/SS rules front and back are over and never coming back.

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Charlie Bob, I'm going to try and make this as simple as I can for guys like you and Gaffney ( who BTW doesn't run in Stock) to understand, in 1975, you had to use a for real "stock" cam. That went away, we went to "stock" lift, any duration because there weren't enough Tech inspectors who knew how to check a cam. Then, we had to change the valve spring rule because the "stock" springs wouldn't follow the square cams that were suddenly "stock". Then, because we were blowing up all of our "stock" motors from the RPM that we could now turn, we were allowed pistons, valves, rods, and cranks made by the aftermarket for our "stock" motors. Then, we were allowed aluminum heads, blocks and cranks because all of the "stock" stuff was too hard to find (B.S.).
Are you getting my drift here? I will guarantee you that if you do away with shipping weights, there will be a push for light weight stuff within a couple of years. It's what Racers do.

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and made others unhappy.

If you want no shipping weights then run the superstock classes of Modified, FGT and GT. Leave the rest of Stock and Superstock alone!

Quit all the rule changes...and the proposed rule changes!

If you don't like the rules then run the local associations and change their rules. Heck, Charlie, you have the power to change the GLSSA rules.

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1. Knock yourself out if you want it in SS. SS needs more SS/GT/Comp cars.

2. Sounds good to me in Stock and SS. BUT it should probably be put to a vote. A real vote. Too many Racers will be affected to not. With 1 lb. classes, the higher classes in Stock would be a real bloodbath.

3.This sounds good to me too. It should have been done when NHRA instituted the AHFS.

Oh, wait a minute, you apparently have issues with the AHFS too! Are you one of those WOKE people?

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Billy I am going to make it simple as well. We are not going back in time. Those were great racing times no question. But time doesn’t stand still and some old rules need to change with time and technology.
I for one am glad haft of those old stocker rules like valve spring pressure are gone.

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You do realize we are only trying to help out people, if the postponement of the correct shipping weights come out in 2023 then have at it. I’m good the way it is, I just have friends in stock that I don’t want to see their combo gone.

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Hard to believe Grubbs wants the rule to stay the same. If no shipping weights are used Everyone with C and B stocker will be ditching weight to get to AA and A and they won’t be able to bracket race in AA anymore. Once again it’s what’s good for them not the class

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If Stock and SS don't start rolling back some new rules that have changed to make Racers with "new" combos happy then we will soon see "new" combos running what will be essentially ET-2 but is called Stock and the older combos will be running nostalgia stuff.

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🙄

Charley come on in… the waters plenty deep.

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I’m to fat to get my 69 camaro to AA. But if they would let new and old cars race in regular stock I’m in for AA with my CJ

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Charley let Paul's wife run the car I'm sure it would fit.

Bill I would love to run AA/SA. If we use the logic that some on here have used, I would be a shoe in. I also put light weight seats in my car, took out the rear seat, use light weight rear and tires, no exhaust system, light weight wheels, aluminum radiator, plus a lot more weight removed. Why shouldn't my car get the same gift the 2015 Camaro's got. Then I could fit in AA/SA.

Darren, your cars run my class and I thought it was a chitty deal right from the start. Between the factory bogus HP and using the wrong shipping weight. I do want to see the newer cars in Stock and know it's a tough deal to make them work with the right shipping weight, but it doesn't make it right. I can forget the whole deal if you take the block from under Jeff's gas pedal and he runs the car all out at Gainesville. BP

PS let me know what run so I can watch. LOL

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My two cents, I am not in favor of ditching traditional SS and Stock shipping weights. Yes the old GT shipping weight rules were obtuse( vehicle shipping weight +/- 250lbs ÷ engine factored HP to get Power to Weight & and even if a car fit a class it couldn't always get to run at the bottom or minimum of that class if it didn't fit the bottom of the class) but the traditional SS and Stock shipping weights rules are much more straight forward. Find your car's combo power to weight. See what class weight break it fits and you run one class lighter or one class heavier. Simple.

I think If you do away with shipping weights than there will be a whole lot more of dodging going on. Jumping to classes to avoid potential heads up. It certainly will be easier to do.

Also some combos will receive a big advantage. For example the 4th gen LS1 Firebirds in SS. Auto Ram air cars fit F,G,H at 319hp. Flat hoods H,I,J at 305. You telling me that ever Ram air car is not going to switch a flat hood and get 14hp off their combo the first day that shipping weights are done away with? I am sure there is others that will benefit also. Not exactly fair to other competitors running against those combos.

Finally I think it would cause more of a problem with people lighten their cars then running super heavy. Exotic materials (Carbon Fiber, Titanium, Aluminum, etc) aren't cheap and like most relaxing of the rules done in the past by NHRA will drive the cost of keeping a competitive car up dramatically.

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Billy this has to be the worst-case scenario I have seen in Stock and Super Stock in its 60 plus years of existence. I would not want to be the one that makes the decision on how to straighten this mess out. You can say just go back and put all the right info in. But where does it end. Do you get rid of the aluminum drive shaft that the 67 Shelby Mustangs get to use because years later Shelby added them as an option on the car? If someone was to go back and right all that is wrong, they may spend the next 5 years trying to figure it all out. And for everything they try to correct someone will come up with a reason to justify why it was done that way to begin with. It's uglier than ugly. I hate to see more rule changes and I would hate to see us lose any more racers. I hope they are able to come up with a solution that will affect us races in the least possible way. I hate to see them do away with shipping weights but at this point it has to be on the table. It's not the right thing to do but it may be the only thing they are able to do. You like to pick on my car and that's ok. Could you imagine how many others will start to nitpick on other cars if their car gets effected after they have been running it that way for years. It will start a war between all of us racers that I would hate to see. And so would the Powers to be. You see some of the post it's already started. That itself could end what is still left to Stock and Super Stock. Think about it sometimes what you wish for ends up being the biggest mistake. I want what's in best interest for the long-term health of our class. BP

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Charlie,personally I would like to go one class lighter myself,I just gave an argument to think about, not thinking about myself so much;)

ps. We have met, and I like you:)

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Y’all get the rules fixed and I will race by those rules. If the rules get to crazy there are other places to race.

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For a non-contestant like me all this controversy is disheartening and would keep me from racing a stocker again if I chose to.
I see the merit in both Charley's and Billy's points of view but naively wish the clock could be turned back and we all know that never happens.

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Well put Mr. Larry! Do what needs to be done and we will go from there. Just not sure why they make all these sudden changes that affect so many people. Hopefully they give us a little more heads up that way I know if I need to start building a new car or not!

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If they give us a heads up notice of what is coming, then you realize that you better start building that electrical Super Stocker.

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Seems that some racers would like to see Stock "evolve" into Comp, but with advertised HP rather than cubic inches. Oh yeah, and stock valve size and lift, with no hood scoops. I know there are already too many classes, but with the barn doors getting opened more every year, I pine for a time when racers liked Stock, for the challenge for working with, and around, the weaknesses of the combination that they chose, retaining ALL the factory components, of an actual package that was readily available to anybody to walk into any new car dealership, and drive home. I wish things were more like Junior Stock was, than Factory Stock and "enhanced" Stock has become.

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We know why, because someone asked for it, in fact Kevin said he was the reason why this happened, and the funny part is what he asked for did not get changed.

And as racers find something that may affect them. They deflect and bring something else up that may affect someone else. And then it goes on and on and on.

If you don't think the NHRA staff who make/change the rules don't read this stuff, you are mistaken.

We will all deal with whatever changes come down the pike, but don't believe someone is sitting behind a desk thinking what they can come up with to screw with us next.. These things are a reaction to someone else's actions. And in that person's view, it may be warranted, but it comes with a price as we can see, and the posts keep coming in.

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I can't think of much good that can come from the original post.
They'd eliminate ALL of us if they could.. You don't want to combine and eliminate half the classes..Don't give them the ammo to shoot us with.
Plus combining stick and auto and eliminating half pounds will totally screw up the combo races.. Most seem to want heads up runs, but wait till it's every other pair. The budget guys who can't or won't go to 8-9 points meets will drop out of the local stuff too, don't you think, Charlie Bob?
This is not the way to re- imagine class win payouts , if that's where we're going with this. But that's another thread...