Mopar 440 racers - time to legalize that shortblock!
 

Just heard that NHRA tech is no longer going to look the other way on the engines built with the incorrect short-deck B block, must use correct RB raised block as dictated in the rulebook ("crossbreeding of parts prohibited"). Applies to other makes but it appears the problem is primarily with the 400 block being used for 440 applications. Also, 440 cranks are turned down significantly to fit the 400 B block mains. Compression height of the pistons will also change significantly.

Re: Mopar 440 racers - time to legalize that shortblock!
 

So that is what they mean by "no cross breeding of parts?" What about all the other engines that are cutting 1/2, 3/4 or even 1 inch off their decks? A year ago, I called 2007 the year of the short "decks". Of course you all know that Pontiacs have a very long rod with big strokes, so Pontiacs always stroke it deeper. ;)

Pontiac has a natural advantage of a 455 with a 10.200 deck. That allows us a piston without pin around 370 to 400 gms. You mean we might actually get one of our natural Pontiac advantages back that was given away for free?

Lynn

Re: Mopar 440 racers - time to legalize that shortblock!
 

Paul.

Re: Mopar 440 racers - time to legalize that shortblock!
 

Not only does the crank get a serious grinding just to fit the block but the intake manifold of a stock 440 won't begin to fit as it's 1" to wide. There's not enough intake manifold flange to mill away to make up that difference. It takes some serious surgery to a 6-pack aluminum intake to get it to fit a B block. By then you have a tunnel ram as the runners were more up hill. That of course is not acceptable in stock. Superstock is a lot easier to deal with.

Re: Mopar 440 racers - time to legalize that shortblock!
 

Just use the Edelbrock 383 6 pak intake.

Re: Mopar 440 racers - time to legalize that shortblock!
 

Chirs is obvious Rocket doesnt know much about these motors. The mainfolds are available out of the box, the cranks are available to drop in no need to grind as you say. The advantage is 100 grams on the piston. I know this for a fact. If you believe that 100 grams will make you run .5 quicker I have 100 acres of ocean front property near Tulsa, OK Ill be glad to sell you.

Herb McCandless Jr

They should outlaw those 1200. a set pistons rings that I know they are running

Re: Mopar 440 racers - time to legalize that shortblock!
 

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Re: Mopar 440 racers - time to legalize that shortblock!
 

Go back to class racing school. The 383 6-pack edelbrock intake does not have the correct 440 6-pack factory casting numbers. That requires at least a part number change to make it appear legal. That is direct violation ofthe rules. At least one top ten qualifier and points earner (no names) ran this engine and the intake was cut extensively and realigned to longer straighter runners for a significant horsepower increase.

The 440 factory crank never had 400 sized mains. Should you or I look upo the specs? I'll get it later.
NHRA does not allow turning the mains beyond normal bearing size replacements. Crossbreeding of parts are illegal.
440 main bearing journal size: 2.750"
400 main bearing journal size: 2.625"
Difference: .125"
Advantage: less frictional loss due to bearing speed.

The compression height is vastly changed which makes a 440 replacement piston impossible to use. So that part is illegal. It's also more than 100 grams a piston.
440 rod length: 6.768"
400 rod length: 6.358"
Difference: .410"
440 stroke: 3.750"

As you can see when using a 400 short deck block the piston pin is moved upwards. This creats a shortskirt piston which in no way could weigh 749 grams as suggested by NHRA for stock eliminator. Thats if your using the NHRA mandated length 440 rod.

Clearly, anybody that runs a 400 B block in stock has to alter the crank, pistons and intake beyond what is legal. That's a lot of work. Would you do all that for a tenth? Two tenths?

Re: Mopar 440 racers - time to legalize that shortblock!
 

In Stock class, as long as you run the same OEM material and stroke as the engine you claim, using a crank in the same family is acceptable. As an example, using a cast crank within the different years of a Chevy small block, as long the stroke is identical, it is okay. However, using a forged crank in an engine that had a cast crank is not acceptable.

Re: Mopar 440 racers - time to legalize that shortblock!
 

Sounds like "Cross Breeding" to me! Specifically stated in the rule book for Super Stock and Stock.

Lynn

Re: Mopar 440 racers - time to legalize that shortblock!
 

Illegal for Stock, but in SS you can run any intake as long the carb is located in the OEM position. You also adapt any intakes with spacers. The Smith brothers (Pro Trans), ran a Chevy intake, with adapters, in the SS 383/Cuda for many years.

Re: Mopar 440 racers - time to legalize that shortblock!
 

Incorrect. 440 crank is in the RB family, 413-426W-440 engine size, 2.750" journal size as. RB family as defined by Chrysler.
400 block is in the B family. 361-383-400 engine size as allowable in NHRA competition (other variants predate NHRA allowance for competition). B family as defined by Chrysler.

You can swap a cast crank for a forged crank application as long as the part is OEM and part of the same family. Example. You can use a 396 cast crank from a 265 horsepower Impala in your 375 horsepower Camaro engine for a weight savings. You could also use the standard small bolt rods. These are direct fit, same family applications. Truck crank, boat crank, it would not matter.

Again, "no crossbreeding of parts allowed". Also, "lightening of crankshaft other than normal balance job prohibited" Note: Per NHRA in SS you can turn down main and rod journals as much as you like.


Yes, any intake you can come up with allowable in SS as long as same configuration.

Re: Mopar 440 racers - time to legalize that shortblock!
 

Yes, that is exactly why I meant; I consider the RB a different family from the B engine.

Re: Mopar 440 racers - time to legalize that shortblock!
 

Rocket post with your real name and I'll continue this discussion.

Herb McCandless Jr

Re: Mopar 440 racers - time to legalize that shortblock!
 

I think the 400 is ok in ss, but not stk. I have been wrong before so don't swear on it.

Re: Mopar 440 racers - time to legalize that shortblock!
 

We arent talking about the intake, we are talking about the reason why you need the 383 intake. Arent they using a 400 block instead of a 440 block taking about 0.800 inches off the piston height? Isnt that the definition of cross breeding?

Pontiac made a 9.200 deck block that with a 400 we could do a very small crank and a very small piston skirt. We were told that is illegal. Several SBC guys I know say they are going to build a short deck 400 since their rods are like 5.35 inches. Wouldnt that be a killer combo too? Did NHRA allow that?

I dont blame the BBM guys for doing it, it is just that if one group gets it then everyone should. I could only do about 0.200, but a 428 could do about .400, and a 400 could do about 0.750.

Lynn

Re: Mopar 440 racers - time to legalize that shortblock!
 

But there is nothing to discuss. No grey area. Tech needs to enforce the rules as they are printed. I'm told that is in the works. If not, just as Lynn McCarty said, open it to everybody.

Re: Mopar 440 racers - time to legalize that shortblock!
 

Hell, a blind man can tell a 440 block from a 400 block.

Rocket, I assume your talking about stock. If the stock rod length is used and main diameter is same, a 400 block as a 440 is proper reading of the rule book to me for SS.

Re: Mopar 440 racers - time to legalize that shortblock!
 

Did you read the specifications provided to you? Did you read the part about engine families? Did you read the rules violations? Go back over those items and then get back with your interpretation. Thank you.

Re: Mopar 440 racers - time to legalize that shortblock!
 

Chris we know each other from 20 years ago. Dont give to much info as soon as Rocket tells his real name Ill chime back in. He is in left field. And yes a Ray Charles could tell the difference between the two blocks. Can you Rocket without tools just your eyes.

Herb Jr

Re: Mopar 440 racers - time to legalize that shortblock!
 

Herb, Dad says to tell you and your Dad hello.

My mention of the 383 intake did what I wanted it to.Ray Charles will build my next engine.:D

Re: Mopar 440 racers - time to legalize that shortblock!
 

Ray would feel around for the 1" x 2" machined pad cast into the block on the driver side between the deck and intake manifold. It is flat and faces straight up. Since I have eyes that see, I would just look in that direction. The factory marked this block pad with designations such as "HP" if it was a magnum engine. Sometimes you'll see a maltese cross that indicates non standard bearings or bore size from the factory. Sometimes the pad is blank. But this pad is only seen on the RB family and not the B family engine. Since your dad is in most of the old Direct Connection books he should be able to confirm to you that the B engine and RB engine are two distinct families as defined by Chrysler. These two families do not allow the interchanging of crankshafts, connecting rods, pistons, pushrods, or intake manifolds. . Hope I didn't leave anything out.
Herb, why would my name ad credibility to this subject? The material facts are right so there's no need for a debate. The rule book is clear on these material matters so there's no need for debate. The only room for debate is if NHRA should enforce this rule and if not, allow others to have the same advantages.

So I'm in left field? Which field are you in?

Re: Mopar 440 racers - time to legalize that shortblock!
 

Not to change the subject,but I was wondering if it is legal to put a Dana rear end in an AMC Stocker?

Re: Mopar 440 racers - time to legalize that shortblock!
 

bbbb

Re: Mopar 440 racers - time to legalize that shortblock!
 

If he is correct,which I believe he is,then how in the world has this been going on for so long?

Re: Mopar 440 racers - time to legalize that shortblock!
 

Just look the other way as the saying goes, Paul.

Re: Mopar 440 racers - time to legalize that shortblock!
 

The problem with you is you do not race in stock or superstock. By your posts here and everywhere it's obvious you do not have an understanding on the issues racers in this class must deal with. The rules will not "dumb down" to your level one day so you can jump in and race stock. So get over it. Since you have a grudge against me, start your own thread. Just quit mudding up everybody's discussions on things you obviously know nothing about. Tell you what, for $100 I will send you the letter from NHRA stating a Dana 60 is legal for use on AMC's in Stock. I'll even frame it for you.

Re: Mopar 440 racers - time to legalize that shortblock!
 

Well said Jeff! The answer is YES Speedracer. It has been so for many, many years. NHRA rules are clear as mud! Jim

Re: Mopar 440 racers - time to legalize that shortblock!
 

Where on the NHRA web site is all this information posted?

Other than what has been in the rule book for years about cross breading parts, where is there something official about RB and B Mopar engines from NHRA?

Re: Mopar 440 racers - time to legalize that shortblock!
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Speedracer
Not to change the subject,but I was wondering if it is legal to put a Dana rear end in an AMC Stocker?


The problem with you is you do not race in stock or superstock. By your posts here and everywhere it's obvious you do not have an understanding on the issues racers in this class must deal with. The rules will not "dumb down" to your level one day so you can jump in and race stock. So get over it. Since you have a grudge against me, start your own thread. Just quit mudding up everybody's discussions on things you obviously know nothing about. Tell you what, for $100 I will send you the letter from NHRA stating a Dana 60 is legal for use on AMC's in Stock. I'll even frame it for you.
__________________
Jeff Lee 7494 SS
'70 AMX SS/H





So far,I don't think anyone has been given the scoop on this 440 block thing except RocketBlock.







Jeff Lee,
I don't have a problem with you at all.It is obvious that you have a passion for Super Stock and Stock Racing that not everyone has and I really admire and respect that.
RocketBlock and I are the ones that have had some issues before though.

Yes,I don't race in Stock. I gave it up several years ago after I could never get the car to run the index!

Re: Mopar 440 racers - time to legalize that shortblock!
 

Right now it is just something I heard. Does that mean NHRA is aware of the problem? Absolutely. Does it mean NHRA agrees this is a problem and against the rules? Absolutely. Does it mean NHRA will come out with an edict and enforce the rule as written? Who knows! We've all seen them drop on the deck and flop like a fish more than once (spongebob squarepants theme song)!

So lets put this in perspective. For now it's just a rumor. Take it for what it is worth. Who can get on here and tell everybody that any of these conversion outside of family parts are anything but ileagal? The specifications I have posted are absolute and can be verified in any motor manual published in hard copy or online. If that's the case, why would NHRA allow use of these parts? The reason it has been allowed to fly under radar is Danny Gracia over rode Travis and others at Indy when they tried to throw out a west coast racer. Politics, not enforcment or enterpretation of the rules is what has allowed this to continue. Present your case why NHRA should allow this. While your at it, present the case for NHRA to allow all other BOP engine builders to do the same. Might as well allow crossbreeding FE and 385 series Fords while your at it. See page 55 for stock and page 67 for SS of the rulebook under engine for clarification.
If this wasn't such an advantage, why would racers risk suspension to do it? Need I remind you who just won the SS championship and what motor he runs? Does having an engine that is capable of qualifying number 1 make a championship all the easier with bye runs and heads up dominating performance? Would 1 tenth have made a difference? 2 tenths? Dare I say 3 tenths?
I'm looking forward to hearing your case. Especially Herb's.

Re: Mopar 440 racers - time to legalize that shortblock!
 

Seems like the crux of the matter would lie in the interpretation of the word "crossbreeding."

When I went to school, "crossbreeding" was a term applied to types of races of PEOPLE... If you had a couple who were of two different races, say a Caucasion and an Oriental, and they had an offspring, its ethnicity would be the product of "crossbreeding."

Applied to automobile engines, I always thought of someone running Ford pistons in a Chevy (or, vice-versa) whenever I saw that language ("No corssbreeding of parts") in the rulebook.

To apply this rule to different engine families, within the product lines of ONE manufacturer would be yet another way of looking at "crossbreeding", but it seems like a stretch to me. It is of no consequence, of course, what ~I~ think...

If that is what NHRA meant, however, when they wrote that, they need to come out and say it.

An official clarification of "crossbreeding" as it applies in this instance, is going to have to come from NHRA Tech.

I hope it's soon.

Re: Mopar 440 racers - time to legalize that shortblock!
 

It is possible to use a stock 383 crank in a 400 block and have 451 cubic inches.

Re: Mopar 440 racers - time to legalize that shortblock!
 

Really? Tell me how.
Because a 383 crank and a 400 crank have the same 3.375" stroke. A 383 block is 4.250" bore and a 400 block is 4.340" bore. So a 383 crank in a 383 block makes 383.03 cubic inches. A 383 crank in a 400 block makes 399.42 cubic inches. You could even put a 400 crank in a 383 block and make cubic inches.
See the pattern here?
But you could also put a 440 3.750" stroke crank in a standard bore 400 block after turning the main bearing journals down .125" and then you would have 443.80 cubic inches.

Re: Mopar 440 racers - time to legalize that shortblock!
 

In 1958 Chrysler made a raised deck 383 with the 3.75 stroke, and a very small bore. Can't remember the bore size, it's an old age defect...... John Lang

Re: Mopar 440 racers - time to legalize that shortblock!
 

Rocket-
This is all quite interesting, and if true sounds pretty bogus to boot. I only hope that as hard as you are politicing here that you actually nut up and protest someone if you really feel that way. I mean, you obviously have thought this through. Heck I don't think that NHRA will make you state your name if you bring cash. Protest em if you really have a stake in this.

Re: Mopar 440 racers - time to legalize that shortblock!
 

RB 383" "Golden Lion" , 4.030" bore and 3.75" stroke.
In production '58-61 if remember ok

Re: Mopar 440 racers - time to legalize that shortblock!
 

John
Could be 58 but I think it was 59 that Chrysler introduced the RB 383. 4.0312 X 3.750. Same year Dodge and Plymouth had the B 383 with the 4.25 X 3.375. The RB 383 shared the same crank dimensions as the eventual 413 426 and 440.
The RB 383 lasted thru 61. In 58 Dodge and Plymouth had a B motor 350 with a 4.0625 bore. Think the 350 only lasted 1 year.
Guess to get a 451 from a 400 block and 383 crank you could use the 383 RB crank (440 crank), turn the mains and bore the 400 +.035.
None of the above speaks to the RB vs B block question but it is interesting brain filler for Mopar guys.

Re: Mopar 440 racers - time to legalize that shortblock!
 

From what I have heard,it doesn't do any good to protest anyone on anything.If somebody can come up with a letter that says its legal to run a 150 horsepower Nitrous kit,because somebody at the dealer installed it,then its hard to say that it is not legal.
I suppose the same logic could come with this?

By the way,

Sniper Nitrous System is now on sale for $359.88 for anyone that is interested.MUCH cheaper than porting heads!

Re: Mopar 440 racers - time to legalize that shortblock!
 

Rocket,

I went back and checked the 2000 NHRA rulebook, and a 400 block with 440 crank is legal is SS only, grey area though.

It's legal if the correct length approved rods are used. The rule book does not state compression height must be certian diminsion, same thing with the distance from deck to C/L of the crankshaft. Mains and rods diameters are not checked any more, so your point there is not valid. Same thing for pushrods, intake manifolds, and piston compression height, as you don't care with a SS.

And Jim has a good point, protest next time you see it, but I think you'll be donating to the Steve Wann racing fund instead.

But a 400 block for a 440 engine in stock is illegal as hell.