And the penalties are???
 

Statement of Action Against Participant
The following action has been taken against Gary Summers regarding the use of a modified carburetor used during Lucas Oil Drag Racing Series event #22 at Gainesville, Florida on March 5, 2021. Summers was disqualified from the event and will receive 0 points from the event and the event will count towards his quota. Additionally, because this was Summers second offense in less than two years, he was fined Two Thousand Five Hundred dollars ($2,500).

Statement of Action Against Participant
The following action has been taken against Cody Phillips regarding the use of a throttle body used during Lucas Oil Drag Racing Series event #22 at Gainesville, Florida on March 5, 2021. Phillips was disqualified from the event and will receive 0 points from the event and the event will count towards his quota.

Re: And the penalties are???
 

What they are is BULL****!!!! Cody and Gary, my statement here is nothing personal and I have no beef with either of you, but your penalties piss me off and I’ll explain why! A few year ago, I was in both the national and divisional championship hunt! I had won second round of eliminations at a Lucas oil race (in division) and was getting ready to go up for round three, when here came the tech guys on the golf cart into my pit! They advised me that I could not legally run the class I was running with the car I was claiming. I was dq’d from the race, receiving THE SAME PUNISHMENT that these two received for using illegal parts for performance gains! Now I did make a mistake, that was correctable by changing the year of my car on my tech card. It was a mistake on my part because I got to the track late and was a little rushed to get up there for the first qualifying run. I would not have even tried to make that run but weather was threatening to disrupt the rest of the day, so I wanted that run. Had tech came over with that news after that run, I would have said, ok, let me fix my mistake, throw the run out and let’s move on! That DQ ended up costing me the division championship and a number 2 national finish.

My point being these two get the same punishment for using illegal parts for a performance gain as I did for claiming the wrong year car for the GT class I was running! (Rule changed this year making that mistake impossible). So you can see why this punishment downright offends me! Hell, it should give those who need the help the incentive to cheat! What’s the worst that can happen? A slap on the wrist apparently!!! And for a repeat offender at that!!

Re: And the penalties are???
 

The risk vs reward incentive to cheat just went WAY up

Re: And the penalties are???
 

so nobody gets grounded / time off for punishment anymore ?

Re: And the penalties are???
 

Sad!

Re: And the penalties are???
 

Hard to Collect Entry Fee when said racer is not allowed to enter race$$$

Re: And the penalties are???
 

Makes sense

Re: And the penalties are???
 

Let ME, Billy Nees Stk/SS 1188 make one thing perfectly clear to the NHRA right now, the FIRST time that I am fined ANY AMOUNT of MONEY for ANYTHING regarding a TECH infraction or an Oil Down, good luck collecting because you will NEVER (never) EVER see me at an NHRA Event of ANY KIND AGAIN!!!!
You want to give me time off, fine. You want to take my parts, OK. You want to take away ALL of my points, go ahead. You want to fine me THAT kind of money for ANY kind of an infraction at one of your races where IF I WIN THE RACE, the NHRA Winners Purse is $1500-$2000? Take a hike!

Re: And the penalties are???
 

Ordered parts for my new 500 inch stock/bracket roller motor, not. What a disappointment in NHRA. So if we go to tear down we point out something easy to get DQ on but nothing else is checked for size or volume.

Allen here is your chance to own a pink car.

I’m building a bracket car. A class win has been sold for a few silver coins.
Skip the middle man and go to the NHRA eBay site and get your own bowling trophies for pennies on the dollar.

Gargle, Swallow, Repeat !

Re: And the penalties are???
 

The N.H.R.A. is listening to the members of this forum as I'm sure they do, how they process the feedback is anyone's guess. I'm challenged to how they make these poor decisions such as the Summers and Phillips incidents. Yet they severely punish Bryan Worner who was not cheating but made an honest mistake.
The Division and Technical Directors need to review the thought process of their decisions.

Re: And the penalties are???
 

Hate the politics of this all
But until we stand as a WHOLE group we stand alone
It has been talked about many many times
If we stand together they will come to our table and we will make fair rules for all ...we will prosper
Many many good people in the NHRA there really is
But if we give them our money we should have a seat at the table
Hope at least some will agree....
Oh and Thanks to this site for being there to let us say what we want and for all he does ...

Re: And the penalties are???
 

OMG !! this is the post of the year !! BUBSKI would like to know how a contender for the national and divisional championship does not know the year of his car and or GT engine combo ?? Did you claim the wrong combo at the previous races you did well at ?? Bubski wonders what happened to the class racer that knew everything about their combo and anyone else in their class !! I guess that train of thought is long gone !! How are the tech people supposed to know you made an honest mistake ?? I No matter the circumstances Bubski would think you would at least know what class your running !! If you were claiming the wrong combo prior to getting tossed !! Do you think it offends the people you sent home ??

Re: And the penalties are???
 

The old GT rule had a formula based on the shipping weight. With my car and engine combo, I could run multiple GT classes and claim either an 86-87 Z28, as well as a1990 IROC Z to run SS/JA At the previous race I ran GT/KA which is an 11 lb weight break, the same as SS/JA which is what I run most of the summer. However, due to the old GT formula, I had to claim a lighter car to run GT/JA, which is the Z28. As I stated earlier, I arrived late, and was in a hurry to get to the lanes for Q1! I mistakenly claimed the year car to run GT/KA when I was running GT/JA. No difference in the car at all. I didn’t have to change anything to run these multiple classes. Do you not call that an honest mistake, compared to using an illegal part??? By the way, that GT formula has been deleted from the rules so now I can claim the 1990 IROC Z and legally run all of the above classes.

Re: And the penalties are???
 

And who is Bubski??

Re: And the penalties are???
 

Bubski is a troll who talks about himself in the third person because he's a legend in his own mind.

Re: And the penalties are???
 

Some loser no doubt who wouldn't have the balls to say that stupid **** to your face.

Re: And the penalties are???
 

I have a bit of a different take on this. We have complained for several years that NHRA is not doing tech the way we think it should be done, which I agree with. However when they do their job as is the case with Mr. Summers and Mr. Phillips a lot of people are upset not by the results of the inspection but by the penalty’s involved.
In the case of Mr. Summers did NHRA overreact? We have read what NHRA posted, his carburetor was modified. What does that mean? I wasn’t there during the inspection and I would guess neither were any of you, with the exception of Mr. Summers. He posted on this forum that his carb booster was too shiny. Kind of sounded to me like he was down playing it, like it was no big deal. Maybe I would do the same to save face. Was there more to it than that? Obviously NHRA thought so, combined with a previous violation they finally made a statement by putting some teeth into their tech inspection and subsequent violation and it has not been well received. I think what NHRA has done is what we have asked them to do, taking care of business.
Maybe I’m missing something here.

Kelly Lane
4991 Stock

Re: And the penalties are???
 

Wasn't he the bowler guy in that one movie? :D

Re: And the penalties are???
 

Kelly, what's missing here is that there are apparently at least two conflicting stories and rules enforcements going on. For the past few years (since NHRA approved the use of "aftermarket" carburetors in place of certain Holley carbs) NHRA's "policy" has been to "only check venturi size and throttle bores". Carb boosters became a moot point because the "aftermarket" carbs that they approved had completely different boosters in them compared to the OEM carbs.
Now I'll be right up-front here and tell you that the boosters in one of my combos aren't the original or correct boosters but when I mentioned it to an NHRA Tech, I was told the "venturi size and throttle bore" story. Am I legal? Am I not? I've been allowed to run. If I am suddenly NOT legal, I wish that somebody would let me know of a policy or rule change! I don't like being ambushed!
I am certainly not one of Mr. Summers best buddies and I don't know if there is more to the story but from what I've read I would say that Mr. Summers was ambushed.

Re: And the penalties are???
 

Billy, are you in the belief that "they" were determined to find "something-anything" to bounce a previous offender with a too-fast run/car? (Not a loaded question, but let's cut to the chase)

Re: And the penalties are???
 

You do the crime, you do the time. Technically you cheated your competitors. If you agree that they could throw out a qualifying run, you are agreeing that they can throw you out on any run. It sucks, but that was the rule at the time.

I would have been more curious to know who pointed out to the officials that your claim was wrong.......

Re: And the penalties are???
 

I am not applying this to what has happened recently, but I wonder if a fine will deter people more than a suspension? In Nascar, drivers lose points and there are fines attached. Drivers still get to race the following week. Crew cheifs get suspended, but not drivers. Now you can say that the drivers don't work on the car, but in our racing, there are many who don't work on their car either.

Just a question.

Re: And the penalties are???
 

No, I don't believe that "they" were determined to find "something-anything". I believe that Summers just ran into a Tech with a conservative translation of the rules. The Rule Book specifically says "Replacement carburetors permitted provided they are same model, type, throttle bore, and venturi size.". Now as far as I'm concerned, the "boat" carb that I have on my car fits the line perfectly BUT the boosters are different. Boosters are NOT addressed. Now, did Summers MODIFY the boosters? It does say something about him polishing the boosters but that's grasping at straws IMHO.

Re: And the penalties are???
 

Duane, what is the winners purse at a NASCAR event? What is the winners purse (not contingency, that's different) for a Sportsman Racer at an NHRA event? Now cheating IS cheating and nobody dislikes cheaters more than I do BUT is it right to fine a Sportsman Racer 50% more than the cash purse for an infraction that could be deemed legal by a different Tech? Is it right to fine a Sportsman Racer for an oil down? Ya know, we don't have big $$$ sponsors picking up the tab for our fines. We aren't Professional Racers, we're Sportsman Racers and NHRA continually reminds us of that so it's perfectly clear!

Re: And the penalties are???
 

I understand that the fine is alot more than the purse, and I don't know if there is even a structure on fines or if they would be applied fairly. My only point I was trying to make was, would a fine be more of a deterrent than a suspension. We have no idea what happened with the polished booster. Was it modified, cleaned up, or just not reanodized from a rebuild. We will probably never know, and any speculation on wether this was the second time he was caught doing something completely illegal or not is just that. I wouldnt expect him to come on here to plead his case.

Isn't their an appeal process at this point for him?

Also, the panel that is made up of racers around the country (SRAC) , do they have any meetings about this stuff with NHRA? And who are they made up of? Are they voted in by racers, or just appointed by NHRA?

Re: And the penalties are???
 

Great point!!

Re: And the penalties are???
 

My guess is it depends on the level of violation to the rule. Something that just "looks wrong" would probably be considered a minor violation. Thus being ejected from the event attended and having to pass tear down before the next race. Something major like a completely wrong sized carb or throttle body or even the wrong engine or engine size would be flagrant and should get you suspended for some time and loss of points.

Years back I won class at the gators and went through tear down. One of my intake valves measured .001 under the low limit. The valve was badly tuliped. I was tossed for the event and had to show up at the next event with the head off and have the valve size checked before I could race. I was also placed on 6 mos. tech probation. That infraction was considered minor. FYI I put new valves in the heads for the next race and the car picked up a tenth.

A mistake on your tech card should be able to be fixed as long as it is done before the last Q run.

Re: And the penalties are???
 

I have a background on one of the most regulated industries in the world; aviation.

In my career, I deal with the FAA, EASA, DCMA and many other technical oversight regulatory agencies. These regulations and requirements make NHRA regulations look insignificant. Nevertheless, the big difference is that the aviation regulations are more specific and detailed, hence, reducing the chance of moronic interpretations by both the end user and the regulator.

The problem for many years is that the NHRA regulations leave too much open for interpretation not only by the racer, but also by NHRA Tech. How many times does NHRA Tech disagree among themselves between each Division and even with the main office with Glendora? This is the reason why many have stated throughout the years that there is a "West Coast" and "East Coast" rule book. What is acceptable in one Division may not be acceptable in another, and what is acceptable in Divisions, may not be acceptable by the main office.

Like Billy Ness and Mark Yacavone have stated many times, what is accepted in carburetors is all over the place and not defined. It also applies to throttle bodies after NHRA open the door for aftermarket throttle bodies like did for carburetors.

NHRA needs to allow SRAC, racers, engine builders and the aftermarket to be more involved in defining the technical aspects of the regulations. Even the FAA has a system called Notice of Proposed Rulemaking (NPRM) in which a public notice is issued when they wish to add, remove, or change a rule or regulation as part of the rulemaking process. It allows the end user, other regulatory and technical entities and even the public to comment on the proposed rule changes and/or new rules. In NHRA's current system, they issue a new rule without consultation, to later rescind or delay its implementation after racers complain about the changed rule or new rule.

Re: And the penalties are???
 

Mike you must claim your class before qualifing. If you were allow to change because you were in the wrong class, then you would get to pick a class after see a qualifing sheet. Everybody dodging and hunting for a heads up would be doing this.

Re: And the penalties are???
 

Bryan Worner post about tear down at the trailer, I have been torn down twice now both in my trailer. I was sealed at the scales then had to wait till tech came before i could start tearing down. That would be the only way this would work. The track that i was at doesnt have a barn to tear down in. But i would tear down where ever they asked me too.

My other question is on the throttle body. Some one said its on the appoved list? I looked at the approved list no throttle bodies listed? Looked at engine blueprints spec and is list and it is listed there, seems it should be on the approved list so everbody knows its approved. How many other appoved throttle bodies are out there hiden in the engine blueprint specs, I know there is not one for the my car, fox body mustangs. My other questoin is why an aftermarket throttle body? Its not like a 1960s carb that is hard or non plentiful to find. You could probably still order one from Chevy.

Re: And the penalties are???
 

For everyone’s information, my carburetor is not an after market product & does NOT have after market boosters. The carburetor that was thrown out is an obsolete, 50 year old carburetor. I am confident in saying that Quick Fuel would not manufacture an illegal carburetor. This carburetor that was taken from me has been passed thru tech inspection in divisions 2,3,4 & 5. No changes were made since the last tech inspection, but for some unknown reason, it failed the inspection at the Baby Gators. Racers that run 4 barrell Holley carburetors that have after market boosters instead of stock like mine, BEWARE! Especially if you have a Ford!

Re: And the penalties are???
 

When I asked Tech. in reference to 396/427, I was also told venturi and throttle bore...
I said "so any 3310 Holley?"...
They said yes...
So I don't know...
The rule also states "no polishing or removal of flash"...
Is that what the Tech. Official saw?...

What I do know is if I had a 50 yr. old vintage carb. I'm not so sure I would allow them to keep it...

We'll have to see what happens if I ever find myself in that predicament...

Re: And the penalties are???
 

Okay I'm not new to racing having raced a SST and SG car at divisional and National events. Now I'm building a new stock eliminator car and hope to complete it this year.
I knew NHRA could take your parts and hold them but is there a time period? Do they keep them forever and what's the point? Do they plan on selling them some day and keep the money (That should be a conflict of interest)
I spent a lot of money building my new car from scratch and I have used resources and suppliers from all over the country. I know the specs for my combo but what if I overlook something that I paid a well know builder / supplier for such as the carb, If it fails tech do they confiscate my expensive carb or do they just DQ me and say get it fixed or replaced? Can I ask for a thorough tech inspection before ever going down the track based on it's a new car? I would think if any problems came up I could withdraw and take it home and not give up expensive parts. (And it is a Ford)

Re: And the penalties are???
 

Gary, your performance is exceptional, however I'll qualify my response, I raced a Max Wedge car through out the eighties and it ran with or beyond a very stout crowd in D1.
We were scrutinized constantly at every race.
Do you think maybe they're looking at stuff more carefully in 2021 to ensure a very integral and lucrative sector of their business?

Re: And the penalties are???
 

If Summers car was legal or not, 2500 $ fine for a tech infraction is Bull **** period. His car is fast ,Damn fast because he picked then right horse for the race, hard work and smart enough to use what NHRA decided was the proper HP and class for his combo. Toss him out ,or whatever But I repeat 2500 $ fine is Bull. I bet that Walley Parks is rolling over in his grave. Sad Day for all Sportsman racers. Beware , this kind of crap is only going to get worse. Next thing you know they will be charging for water in the box, fee for time slips and rental for pit spots. Rick

Re: And the penalties are???
 

Gary's penalty was described earlier in this thread as a slap on the wrist, $2500 in my neighborhood is a wee bit more than a slap on the wrist.

Rick, we are paying for time slips when you have to buy an app to get your run data.

Re: And the penalties are???
 

. Next thing you know they will be charging for water in the box, fee for time slips and rental for pit spots. Rick[/QUOTE]



Don't give them any more ideas of how to fleece you guys. LOL

Re: And the penalties are???
 

It might be the numerous times found wrong. The other person didn't get a fine, right?

Re: And the penalties are???
 

[QUOTE=Mike Pearson;636745]

Years back I won class at the gators and went through tear down. One of my intake valves measured .001 under the low limit. The valve was badly tuliped. I was tossed for the event and had to show up at the next event with the head off and have the valve size checked before I could race. I was also placed on 6 mos. tech probation. That infraction was considered minor. FYI I put new valves in the heads for the next race and the car picked up a tenth.


Did you know that the factory tolerance on a micrometer, Dial indicator, or dial caliper is plus or minus .001. I know this because I used to calibrate precision tools for the Dept. of the Navy. They should be checked with "GAGE BLOCKS" a least once a year. Tools being treated to rough treatment as in running all over the U.S. should be certified at least several times a year. Do you really think most tools being used by the NHRA tech. dept. have been certified?

Re: And the penalties are???
 

Not only that, but if one of them is dropped it needs to be set aside and sent in to be checked / calibrated.

Stan