Just talkin' here,
 

and I would never hope to see this happen but what would Stock Eliminator be like if the NHRA decided to instate the "15 Year" rule again? To fill their Natl. Event fields with new cars.
What would Stock be like without all of the cars from the "Muscle Car" era?
Could this ever really happen?
How did the Stock Racers of 1972/73 feel when they were told that their Stockers are SSers now?

Re: Just talkin' here,
 

Scary prospect Billy but not beyond something NHRA might do as they slowly dwindle the quotas. If you compare quotas this year vs. just last year you can see the direction, cutting quotas for the fall Charlotte and Vegas races with the kind of facilities they have continues to befuddle me. With the Gators filling in two days with just Grade 8's might become the norm for more events since for some, chasing a Wally is the Holy Grail. It may very well become a Millionaire's Club. Another mystery to me is how Alan Reinhart so enthusiastically announces Class racing and the "old iron" and they even do "feature flyers" on classic muscle cars but are the "suits" even listening? But many of us could very well be told that we're only welcome in the index classes. Others will have to speak to how they felt back in 72/73 but I for one love seeing Lyn Smith and others running the 55's and others.

Re: Just talkin' here,
 

I began racing in ‘72 with my ‘57 Chevy 4 dr. wagon which was my first car. A friend of mine had a ‘57 sedan delivery less m&t I bought for $75. (the old “Hatch’s All American”)out of Peekskill, N.Y. Found I could only run it as a SS and sold it never doing anything with that car. The era of the Junior Stockers killed off. Purchased my ‘69 Camaro in ‘73 for $1300., converted it to the “ new stock eliminator” complete with those funky treaded M&H “slicks” which were now legal to run. As I recall those with treads were allowed up to 10 1/2 in width. 1960 and newer cars were only allowed and originally as each year passed, NHRA was going to drop a year so the following year only 1961 models and so on. That was squashed pretty quickly.

Re: Just talkin' here,
 

My Firebird "identifies" as a 2015 Camaro.....or something like that.

Re: Just talkin' here,
 

Pathetic the way NHRA has crapped on sportsman and class racers over the past 20 years. Purse is down, contingencies are down, tech is down, respect is down, only 60 cars allowed to come to a national event. But there are still just as many cars out there and people who want to race as ever. Just pathetic.

Re: Just talkin' here,
 

With the exception of Indy 60 is the high range, more are now 45, 50 and 55.

http://www.nhra.net/2020/images/NHRA..._NE_Quotas.pdf

Kyle, that’s plain funny; I don’t care who you are....but come to think of it I’ve been seeing more Stockers that “identify” as Super Stockers.

Re: Just talkin' here,
 

Warned you that if NHRA did not support CM and PS that it would systematically be doing the same to the rest of the Sport.

Had they been supportive there would be an IHRA and lot more affordable cars and people trying to compete.

NHRA wants to dominate the direction of Drag Racing and our voices are an irritant to them.

D

Re: Just talkin' here,
 

Oh, OK ....it’s NHRA s fault that there is no IHRA ......Where is James Perrone when we need him ??

Re: Just talkin' here,
 

Dan, you may just want to have your well water tested , just saying

Re: Just talkin' here,
 

Our water is fine..!
Got the finest cleanest water called Chateau De Potomac.
One of the best water systems on the planet.
Far from the polluted disaster of Flint Michigan or Sulfur Water of Florida !

You guys still don’t get it...!
Go ahead shoot yourself in the foot !
Did you read your own comments?
Did you understand them?
What happens if NHRA decides on another 20 year rule?
It is not so far fetched.
What would you do then.....Bitch?

Having PS and CM means more racers can afford to participate.
It is simple arithmetic and the number one comments on these Bloggs.
It would draw more bracket racers that have abandoned Stock.
The market is there. SS has adopted the strategy to keep it alive.

More Class Racers also means more Political Pull !
Which means the powers to be have successfully kept us divided..
Then some of you sided with them ..bang bang their goes your foot!
How many complained that NHRA is not listening?
It was said a thousand times............!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

If NHRA wants to Divide the potential class structure.
It is simple... the business goes elsewhere.

Haven’t you noticed?
Such as grass roots drag racing going back to the street..!

What the non-gender pronoun is it you do not get?

D

Re: Just talkin' here,
 

NHRA is reducing the quota in Stock at National Events. Top Dragster, Sportsman, Factory Stock have gone up. It appears newer and faster is more appealing, at least to NHRA.
MJ

Re: Just talkin' here,
 

And also to the consumer they want to sell tickets to. Fast heads up is what people want to see these days, and unfortunately, that's not us.

Re: Just talkin' here,
 

Starting to look like stock is getting old. Same old cars have been showing up for 50 years. Same paint jobs, dried up stickers and the folks that remember the "Good ole days." Drive a new Mustang, Camaro or Dodge off the show room and face it. These cars are cool too!
I'm actually trying to build a new car. Yes I'm a fish out of water and at 63 yrs old. I'm not as limber as i used to be but willing to give it 110%. I guess I like a Challenging adventure. Just my 2 cents worth.

Happy New Years to all,
Paul Haszlauer

Re: Just talkin' here,
 

I agree, that's what NHRA wants. Yet Dan wants more slow(er) cars.
NHRA is happier with less racers in classes that might require teardowns. I feel NHRA wants to adopt the Billy Meyer/IHRA model as the path to the future. They just need to be less abrupt with the changes. So, let's slowly phase the racers out of the market, and replace them with more malleable participants. NHRA doesn't want to "fire" the current racers.....they want them to leave of there own free will.

Re: Just talkin' here,
 

I am not sure Fans want to see fast cars , just maybe if an announcer explains the handicap racing the excitement would be there > fans like to see the chase

Re: Just talkin' here,
 

I just realized I am tied for the 2nd oldest car entered in Super Stock for Gainesville... Geez...

Now if they would make a COPO version of the Corvette...

Re: Just talkin' here,
 

This is part of the problem. The announcers that NHRA has these days are boring at best. We grew up down here in the SE and we had Hasley Hood as our announcer. He was hands down the best announcer I have ever heard. He knew every driver, where they were from and really understood the sportsman classes and handicaps. He would talk up the big handicaps when they came up and he had stories about most of the racers. We need better announcers when we race. Unfortunately we now run when the fans have either not arrived yet or have left for the day. that is why some of the interest has gone.

Re: Just talkin' here,
 

SO how fast is fast?
Something wrong with lower class cars...?
A lot of T/U/V stockers showing up...something wrong with these cars?

Re: Just talkin' here,
 

I don`t know Dan, it seems to be trending the other way.

Re: Just talkin' here,
 

Billy the last time they changed the rules it was ruff ( 3 tenths wack ) . If they took your idea it would put me I to super street running 10.90's with 9 inch tires & less mph than most . Don't give them any ideas . If they did this a 10 year old car expires in only 5 years time . Wow

Re: Just talkin' here,
 

Don't knock it 'til you try it! It can work pretty well. ;)

Re: Just talkin' here,
 

When they got rid of Pro Stock Truck, I remember hearing about law suits from racers who were left without a class. Don`t know the conclusion.
NHRA has nothing to worry about when it comes to participants in Stock. I think there will always be enough and why not collect the money? But if they were to "phase out" Stock, would there be legal ramifications?
MJ

Re: Just talkin' here,
 

Knowing that the NHRA is a "not-for-profit" and knowing the salaries being paid the B-O-D, I would participate in a class action suit.

Re: Just talkin' here,
 

Yep, and the Comp racers won, and settled for an undisclosed amount.

Now the perps tip toe around and squeeze classes out , little by little.
Believe it yet?

Re: Just talkin' here,
 

Nothing wrong with them. I just started an EF/S build. I ran a S/SS combo with it @ my local track, and it went .3 under. I've been trying for 5 years to with my "N" car, before this

I had it @ .15 over. Now it's .45 over. (I know the "N" car is an odd combo, been looking throgh the Stock Car Classification & Blueprint section) I'm not giving up on it.
But when the wallet says so , I want to take the EF/S car to some divisionals.

Then there would be Nothing in NHRA that I could aspire or afford to try to race except, back to brackets.

Re: Just talkin' here,
 

[QUOTE=Billy Nees;605501]and I would never hope to see this happen but what would Stock Eliminator be like if the NHRA decided to instate the "15 Year" rule again? To fill their Natl. Event fields with new cars.
Then it becomes a “well off” man’s eliminator. Several of us can not afford the new cars.

Re: Just talkin' here,
 

Sounds like you're assuming I have something against slow cars.....I don't. A couple of Months ago I was having a weak moment and considered a T/SA combination......briefly. I've got too many out of date race parts already

NHRA already has more Stockers than they know what to do with, there is no room for Pure Stock and Crate Motor. Not to mention the tech inspection hassles.

How fast? Late model car fast, not 60's fast. I'm not picking on 60's cars, there are plenty of REALLY fast 60's cars out there. But face it, the participant age is getting older. To survive, NHRA needs a younger crowd. It's sad to say, but most of them can't relate to the cars we grew up with. Most don't care about older cars, I see it every day. There are multi-generational family(s) out there racing. But they're the exception, not the rule. What classes do you see a younger generation attracted to?

Re: Just talkin' here,
 

Exactly, that's why I said 'phase the racers out', not phase the class out. Make it so objectionable that the racers want to quit.

Re: Just talkin' here,
 

Tom...you wrote it down..Dan wants slow(er) cars..!
You are taking a back stroke now?

NHRA shot Stock in the foot not adopting the IHRA classes.
They wanted control of the sport and the Sheep went along with it.

But ooopps.. the Threads are now talking about the demise of S/SS.
They did not defend their sport and now reality is striking.
I saw the writing and now it is at everyones feet.
You are reading those posts?

As for Tech...big deal...Been torn down many time.
NHRA will have the whole engines pulled to inspect them to death.
CM are easier to tech.
The number of PS cars was not logistically a big issue.
So that is a lame argument.

All the Canadian Open Races invite IHRA cars.
Why.... because it helps their car count.
Not every Division has a plethora of cars..
Especially the western states where local is a day drive.

Want to grow new Class racers.
Incorporate platforms they can afford and upgrade.
That is how all of us got started.
Add some foreign makes to open it up.

Before IHRA killed S/SS, 6 guys building brand new PS combinations.
Got tons of questions from others what to do.
A few discussed moving from Stock to PS.
Two were trying to get their newer cars certified for Class.
I have their forms..

Dodge, Chevy SS, Mustang owners complained their cars were not listed because of the 2008 limit IHRA decreed. Bang Bang

Think about it.
1969 Camaro Stocker probably has $million invested in it over the years.
Originally a 15 second car now running in the 8’s after 50 years.

You want to save Stock you got to go back the roots that got us started.
Where you could drive to the track.
Put your racing tires on and compete.

At Mason Dixon S/SS meet we had 3 PS cars.
2008 GTO and 2015 Chevy SS
Greg Orris’s 08 GTO can run in the 11’s and is Stock.
Been bracket racing since he got it.

I did the same thing with mine to run Brackets and IHRA Stock.
Step by step got my F/PS 95 Impala SS quicker every year.
My car can run on/under the K/SA on a cool day.
Working to make it run it on a hot day.

CM is adopted in SS, called GT
Dan Fletcher’s 1969 Camaro has a LS engine in his.
Our B-Body Impala SS community is doing it for the Street.
That would energize Stock with all the makes.
Even within a platform like a 403 in a mid 80’s Cutlass.
Adding a 4bbl on a 307 Nova or 2v 302 Mustang

If you want Stock to survive we have to band together.
Have to follow the trends that are working.
Traditional, CM, GT, PS and whatever to keep it interesting.
Get it back to a point where there are so many Stockers.
Tracks can have regular local races like they did in 70’s and 80s.

Think about the bigger picture
Stocker owners often have 2-3 friends or entire family’s following along.

If they build it they will come !
Then comes the evolution !

D

Re: Just talkin' here,
 

Dan, you're points, while self serving, are not valid. As mentioned above,
NHRA has more cars than they can handle. That doesn't serve us well,
as we drive all over these 2 large countries chasing grade points. If you wanted to go to a Washington NFL game, and they told you that you
had to go to 8 college games of THEIR choice before you could buy the NFL tickets, you would tell them
that they were nuts and walk away. That's what we do now in S/SS.
Why? Cause we're sick and twisted and have the NHRA needle in
our arm. We also have the greatest group of friends one could ever
hope for. We have a great time if we lose, and an even better time if
we win. There is a reasonable amount of youth scattered amongst the
classes, but if you think the 60's, 70's and 80's hot rodding era will re-invent itself, it ain't gonna happen. I'm going to enjoy and love what we have while we have it. J.R.

Re: Just talkin' here,
 

Not about NHRA..Not self serving.
It is About more business to local tracks.
As for hot rodding it is always reinventing itself..!
The new generation defines what that is.

Yes and do enjoy what we have...!

D

Re: Just talkin' here,
 

Dan.....You're the man, it's good to have you around. Don't let me ruffle your feathers.
I did write it down.....You want Pure Stock and Crate Motor cars.....That's the slow cars I was referring to.
I don't know if I need to work on my communication skills or your reading comprehension.....'cause I'm not trying to argue.

I'm trying to make you understand that NHRA has too much on their plate already, trying to keep the "big show"(not Stock & SS) classes in check. Tech Inspectors/Officials are stretched thin trying to maintain control of those classes. It's asking a lot to have Officials knowledgeable in the nuances of these classes and capable of conducting an thorough teardown on a Stocker or Super Stocker.
Your average Top Sportsman/Dragster team brings just as many paying crew to the track as Stock and SS. NHRA doesn't have to tear down these cars, yet gets to profit from the expanded certifications and safety equipment required for these classes. Certainly you recognize that.....We don't have to like it.

I hope you don't think I want Super Stock and Stock to go away, that's not the case. But we need to be aware that pushing for more classes in an already crowded and challenging Eliminator doesn't serve to improve the sanctioning body's viewpoint.
I don't have the answers to the situation, I want to understand why we see seemingly arbitrary decisions taking place.

Re: Just talkin' here,
 

I no longer race stock however, I still race since retirement SG so I see this from several classes perspective. I have class win trophys before they were Wallys.
NHRA has cut its staff and the length of the events so the stock and super stock classes which require more tech time (staff for fuel check and weights/classification) in my opinion will continue to suffer.
Just look what happened to Pro Stock.
NHRA does not even tech cars at the Nationals however, fuel checks etc are required for some of the classes which takes time and staff.
SG, SC, TS, and TD takes no time for staff at the Nationals. No tech or fuel checks.
Weight for these classes is the only requirement and that is not always done.
The real issue for all those classes except SG is the time it takes to run those classes due to burnouts across the starting line and the TS and TD taking so long to prepare for their run.
From my perspective NHRA is all about cutting costs to run the events and it costs them more to run some classes than others. TV time is also a consideration.
It is really all about money and that is the same thing in any business.
Just My 2 Cents and Observation
Rick Cates
Canyon TX. SG 56 in 2019. SG 76 in 2020

Re: Just talkin' here,
 

BUT!!!!! The NHRA is a NOT-FOR-PROFIT business! If it can even be considered a business. Is it an organization? A club?
It is SUPPOSED to exist for the benefit of it's members not for the benefit of it's B-O-D's salaries and golden parachutes!
Some time ago, then Pres. Tom Compton tried to "split" the Pros from the Sportsmen in order to make the Pros into a "for profit" business. It would have made the Sportsman NHRA into a smaller but more Sportsman friendly organization. I don't know what ever happened to that but I'm guessing that the B-O-D wasn't going to be happy with the ($$$) outcome.

Re: Just talkin' here,
 

Thank you Tom
This is fun Bench Racing..
Nobody can get a Ticket !

Still do not understand SLOW CARS..!!
PS and CM could fit well in the current A-Z index.
PS cars would fit from G to T/S.
CM's go all the way to AA/S.
Figure my F/PS would fall between O/P/Q/R.
Depending how NHRA rated PS Engines.

My contention is that lower cost alternatives invite Hot Rodders to get into our Sport.

As for NHRA Management, dig what you wrote in your second Paragraph.

My question is what made it work before all the cost cutting?
What made it work before some of the rule changes?

You could buy a car from the Dealer, tune it up and go racing in Stock.
That is what Bracket Racers do now and nobody is considering Stock.
Reeling in new racers to our sport is like fishing, need to lure them in.

There are a lot of second hand affordable Chevy SS, GTO, G8, Dodges, Mustang, Camaro on the market racer want to get into PS.
They are not going to tear a car completely apart to race them in Stock.
Most do not have the facilities.

If I were managing NHRA and the issue is with too many cars.
Would spread it out to a 10 day week.
Have Class Run Offs, National Record Runs, Tear Down, T&T, 4 races
Pair down and race 8 on Saturday. Finalists on Sunday of each heat.
Have some evening entertainment.

One thing that kills Public Interest is the lack of National Records.
That was a real thing years ago.
One minor issue no Points are earned setting them.

I am trying to provide ideas and solutions.
Majority of our cars are 30 ,40, 50, 60, 70 years old.
Our generation is passing away very quickly.
The Big 3 have made some hot new cars which have been a big hit.

Young racers in our day were 20..now more like 50 - 80 years old.
That would be interesting to know everyone's age.
Still most of the older well healed drivers are buying the new cars.

Peace

Re: Just talkin' here,
 

I agree about the non profit however, it is still all about the money.
Not for the membership or entries would be less and payouts more.
Today it is all about the pro's show and money.
It was just my observations from sportsman racing NHRA since the 1960's.
Rick Cates
Canyon TX.

Re: Just talkin' here,
 

I agree NHRA is "supposed" to be not for profit....and we understand why and how they maintain that status. I'm trying to understand the TV side of the "business". It seems that since NASCAR is losing TV share, maybe NHRA is trying to find some footing as a broadcast venue. I wonder where the profits (if there are any profits) go. Could the broadcast market be split into a something separate from the racing organization? Could the pressure on the Sportsman program be a way to consolidate the "fast/exciting" TV broadcast? Perhaps NHRA is trying to create some kind of "reality TV/racing broadcast" package that doesn't include the current Sportsman program?

I know......Kinda' crazy......No I'm not wearing a tinfoil hat. Just tossing ideas out.

Re: Just talkin' here,
 

Dan, I made a few edits, hope that's okay.
I see your thought process. You made some good points here. The problem is, your thinking with your heart. You love class racing like the rest of us. That's not NHRA's thinking anymore, those people might still exist there, just not in any meaningful corporate positions.
I'm not sure NHRA is motivated by a love of the Sport at this time.

Re: Just talkin' here,
 

I think most racers appreciate the idea of reviving the pure stock of the old days. Buy a new Ford Mustang GT, drive it to the track, race for a trophy. Drive it home, work on it, drive it to the track again. It sounds awesome on paper. The problem is that I see too many external factors working against it.

We've discussed repeatedly how millennials don't care about cars, etc. Let's ignore that and limit our conversation to "millennials who have an active interest in cars" - how many can afford a brand new $40,000 Mustang GT? How many can even afford a used $20,000 Pontiac G8? And if they can afford the hot rod, can they afford a second vehicle (to get them to work every day), safety equipment costs, and the repair costs if they grenade an engine or transmission? I don't know how many 5.0 Coyote or 6.2 LS3 engines are sitting around in junkyards. And even if they can afford all of that - can they afford time off work, entry fees, fuel costs, hotel rooms, etc.?

This leads to the next problem - NHRA has been cutting S/SS quotas consistently over the last few years. They obviously do not care about the $$$ from the extra entries they're slashing. So if $$$ is not enough, what motivation does NHRA have to add these additional cars? Remember the additional work that goes into tech'ing a Stocker vs. tech'ing a Top Sportsman car.

On the flip side, why in the world would the hero of our story have any interest in driving his Pontiac G8 all over the country to get enough grade points to enter a national event? A national event, where he has to take time off work to show up on Wednesday or Thursday, sit around and watch as his category is bumped by rain, crashes, oil downs, Diesel Outlaw Snowmobiles, or whatever other sideshow attraction has been added to the schedule, and maybe get two runs down the track for the entire weekend? You see a lot of street cars at the Test/Tune days because it's easy. There is no tech inspection, no teardown, no grade points, no nonsense. Most tracks have good Test/Tune or Street Drag programs, so it makes a easy day trip, and you certainly get a lot more return (runs down the quarter mile) for your investment (time and cost).

I truly love Stock and Super Stock racing and want to find a way to expand its appeal and enable its survival long into the future - I just don't see how the worsening NHRA structure is going to accomplish that.

Re: Just talkin' here,
 

I agree, Top Dragster, Sportsman and FS looks like the future. As far as the traditional S/SS cars, there might be something to the nostalgia angle, with new stuff sprinkled in, for spectator interest at local levels. I don't know how many posts like this, we need anymore. Have fun while you can.
MJ