Question on SS/AH & AH/SM
 

Why is the AH/SM index at 8.75 in Comp. Elim. and
Super Stock it is a 9.60 ??
Are their more modifications allowed if you run it in Comp ?

To be competitive in Comp you have to run at least 5 under.
I haven’t seen any hemi cars running 8.25.
Maybe raise the index to 9.00 and see what happens.

Just my .02 cents.

Re: Question on SS/AH & AH/SM
 

Pete, you answered it.

Re: Question on SS/AH & AH/SM
 

It should have been at least 9.00 to start with.

Re: Question on SS/AH & AH/SM
 

Super Stock got .30 this year. I need to find out how they did it so I can get it too. The comp index is stupid should be 9.00-9.10

Re: Question on SS/AH & AH/SM
 

Raising the index in comp has/is being discussed.


This is cut and pasted from the Comp Elim racer website:

Wescott ran a 8.38 & 8.39 at Indy in 2012.
Wescott ran an 8.22 at Div 2 NO race in 2010
Daniels ran an 8.28 at Reading in 2011
Hard ran an 8.26 at the Dutch in 2012
Wolkwitz ran an 8.31 at a Div 1 race in 2013
Wolkwitz ran an 8.28 at the Dutch in 2014
Wolkwitz ran an 8.21 at a Div. 1 race in 2015
Hess ran an 8.28 at a Div. 1 race in 2016
Daniels ran an 8.22 at the Gators in 2017
Wolkwitz ran an 8.30 at the Gators in 2018

Re: Question on SS/AH & AH/SM
 

Using Wolkwitz's 8.30 pass at Gainesville in 2018...9.0 would have made him #10 qualifier, and 9.10 would have put him at the top of the Comp field. The purpose of adding AH to Comp was to let the fast cars run...without the worry of hitting the combo for weight/hp in S/S.

Yeah, 8.75 is a bit steep. If you would have wrote these guys into Comp at the top part of the field at a 9.0-9.10 index...I'm sure what's left of the Comp racers who show up to the events would have been none too pleased with all the Hemi cars that would show up for what could be an easy win.

Re: Question on SS/AH & AH/SM
 

just my 2 cents but, I agree the Comp classes index is too steep. But with the added modifications allowed I don't think we should make the index so soft that a SS/AH car can just switch to comp and be an immediate 60 under player without any other modifications.I'd say 8:90 is fair. At 8:90 many AH cars would be 40-50 under without changing a thing.

Re: Question on SS/AH & AH/SM
 

We have, officially, been fighting this since the index was announced. We have a formal request into the NHRA to change the index to 9.05.
I agree that if modifications were allowed that the index would be ok, but the AH/SM rules are exactly the same as in Super Stock. They literally lifted the rules verbatim and placed them in Comp. So I don't see where, especially the top running guys (Wolkwitz, Daniels, Comella, Bucky, Hebert, Pancake, etc), would pick up at all running in comp. We run these things on the ragged edge every run, cooling, pushing as much as we can, etc. They are pretty much already comp cars. And they have been ran for 50 years, and have been ran like mini Pro Stock the last ten or so years. I don't see why someone like Gary or Jimmy SHOULDN'T be able to run .65 off the bat. These are refined combinations (a close example to me is someone like Bailey or Galbraith or Browell in D3) that should be a front running comp car. Now, I'm not saying they should be able to go .85 off the bat, but I believe if you qualify #1 in the Hemi Shootout at INdy, you should be a top 10 player in comp at the same race.

And in all honesty, what's the difference between a .3 under comp car and a .45-.5 under one? Not much. Most of the field (at least the fast guys) are .6 -.65 under capable. Maybe you can win a round or two, but you aren't really that fast. that's why 9.05 seemed fair to us.

But to answer the original question. If you have a legal SS/AH car, all you need to do is upgrade your license to have a Comp endorsement, and run the Sunoco spec fuel. That is all

Re: Question on SS/AH & AH/SM
 

I am pretty sure NHRA wanted to get some more of these AH cars back in the show at Indy. The last few years since the index was hit almost none of them could compete at Indy. It seems to be the case with a lot of the old iron. The newer stuff seems to be a bit softer. A lot of the older cars combos have been beat up for years and have had HP hits that have made them where they can’t compete as well as they did at one time. When I look at a Q sheet I look for the first car that is a conventional SS car with a carb combo.
That’s what interests me. I like the old iron.

Re: Question on SS/AH & AH/SM
 

All these runs are at sea level tracks in good air, not to take anything away from these guys but I doubt you will see them run these numbers at Indy even if the air is really good. If the air is good the fast comp cars will be 7 tenths + under. Wescott's, unless they come out of 'retirement' are currently not a factor. The index should be 9.00 to 9.05.

Re: Question on SS/AH & AH/SM
 

Everybody knows that the Comp index of 8.75 is at least 1.5 tenths too tough, everybody but NHRA. With NHRA favoring the FI cars in SS it won't be long before you won't see a conventional carb combo make the show at Indy.

Re: Question on SS/AH & AH/SM
 

What changes can be done to the car engines to compete in Comp ?

Does not Comp rules allow a few more mods to improve performance?

D

Re: Question on SS/AH & AH/SM
 

The only change is they have to run Sunoco fuel.

Greg

Re: Question on SS/AH & AH/SM
 

There are no engine mods allowed for AH/SM versus SS/AH. The engine/car rules are lifted verbatim from SS. That is why I don't see any real performance gains by entering the car in Comp versus SS.
Now if you entered the car as an A/SM or A/SMA then yes, you are allowed changes, but the iron headed combo is at a distinct disadvantage on the 8.45 ish index for those classes....

Re: Question on SS/AH & AH/SM
 

Okay, I have lots of questions.

I understand Comp "can" be a teardown class, but considering all of the fuss about valve cover location/studs in SS/AA a while back, there aren't ANY modifications that might slide through in Comp? Or do you anticipate going through a full Super Stock teardown after qualifying for Comp? That's the only way Comp racers are ensuring that AH/SM is adhering to "engine/car rules are lifted verbatim from SS", not tweaked for performance here and there.


Truth is, Comp racers got tired of new classes getting a "gift" index and AH/SM and FS/SM suffered because of it. I see where you mentioned that the index should be where the top running cars should be able to run .65 under right off the bat, really? Yet you propose a 9.05 index? 9.05 minus .65 equals 8.40 by my math, Wolkwitz ran what, 8.44, at the Gators? I suppose that .61 under your proposed index right off the bat wouldn't be a gift, right?
Do you need to run .65 under to win Comp? How far under did Bruno have to run at Topeka? Does Rampy need to run .61 under to be competitive?


If the SS/AH cars really wanted to run Comp, they needed to show up at Divisional Races to run Comp. Those performance standards would give them some leverage for a better index. How many have done that this year? Or do you only expect cars to show up at Divisionals that have a chance to win? If you show up at a Divisional to get grade points in SS/AH do you still run the car like a "mini pro stock"?


Now, is the current AH/SM index too hard at 8.75? I would agree, that's too fast. What should it be? Slower, but how much? At 3170 lbs AH/SM is 7.14 pounds per cubic inch, A/SM is 7.5 pounds per inch....with an 8.45 index. For those who don't do math, that's .39 heavier and .30 faster than the "too fast" AH/SM index! Maybe A/SM needs an adjustment too! Is there a SM class with an index close to your proposed 9.05 index? Oh, D/SM is. That's 9.5 pounds per inch with little carburetors and head limitations, you could add only 1050 pounds to get to the index you want. The only precise way to determine the correct index for AH/SM is with more performance data. The only way to generate that data is?

Re: Question on SS/AH & AH/SM
 

While SS/AH is a very cool class and one I always pay attention to, the fact that the cars can go directly into Comp with no changes says everything about what the NHRA has allowed S/S to become.


Yes, I know they are a special case as one of the strongest combos ever to come out of Detroit. And yes, I remember that some Modified cars were put into SS a while back.


But it seems like the changes were made just to be the easiest possible for the NHRA and not because they made sense in view of what the the eliminator was meant to be in the first place.

Re: Question on SS/AH & AH/SM
 

Is that an improvement?

Re: Question on SS/AH & AH/SM
 

I'm not sure anybody has ever used SR-18 and improvement in the same sentence.

Re: Question on SS/AH & AH/SM
 

I bought a barrel of SR-18 when it was first mandated for Comp and ProStock. My Hemi ran no faster than with C12. Plus, I was always concerned about passing fuel check. I remember once when one of the fuel check guys asked what the hell was I using the Sunoco fuel for. I told him I had a whole barrel of it to burn up.

Re: Question on SS/AH & AH/SM
 

Let me see if I can answer them for you

Yes, if you hit the index or set a record as an AH/SM you can expect to get a full super stock style teardown. That is straight from NHRA tech dept.

No, I do not believe a top running hemi car being able to run .65 under is a gift. It is a highly refined combo that, again, will not "magically" go faster as a comp car. And that is the beauty of comp. If one of these cars does go .65 under in elims, then the cic starts to come into affect and will in turn self regulate the index. That is the basis of comp.

Yes, I do agree with you that they need to actually run the class as it sits so that they can show in real world conditions that the index is off. Without doing a ton of research, there have been several this year that have competed. Wolkwitz, comella, welker, Bucky, pancake, and I think a few west coast guys have. I know several of my other customers considered it, but elected to stay in SS b3cause of the index.

I can only speak for my current customers, but everyone I know runs their car like they are trying to set a record every time they go to the water box. Only exception is probably comellas dart. They don't run it as hard but they are chasing points (and kicking butt!) And they have the red cuda to run shootouts with.

First, minimum weight for ss/ah is 3200. Second, you can't compare a/sm and ah/sm. A/sm is allowed two dominators, any port work, titanium valves, aluminum rods, billet cranks, vacuum pumps, longer wheelie bars, 5 speeds, carbon brakes, etc. Just the 5 speed alone is probably a tenth.....

As far as where is the data? There is 50 years of it. Or the last ten years of hemi shootout at indy. We compiled the data of the last 4 years of the shootout at indy versus comp qualifying and submitted that to nhra. When you look at that info, same track, weather, track, etc, it's pretty obvious where the index needs to be.

Re: Question on SS/AH & AH/SM
 

That's good data, but it's still not data from those cars running Comp. Your argument would be a lot stronger with more passes in Comp. Lots of other racers go out there and struggle in Comp. Why do the Hemi cars deserve special consideration?

I can only presume you still feel that a 9.05 index is still fair to the other racers in Comp?

Is it fair to Comp to let a Hemi racer in and cost the class by losing other racers? An occasional Hemi car is worth losing regular competitors? That's what will happen with a "gift" index.

Re: Question on SS/AH & AH/SM
 

I hope you realize the Holt brothers both have an F/D and have raced Comp for several years. Everything they stated is valid.
Thanks, Ron

Re: Question on SS/AH & AH/SM
 

According to Nitro Joe's stats, only 3 classes have had more participation in comp this year than AH/SM so far, B/DA (11 cars), C/DA (7), and A/EA (7). Five others have had the same amount of cars as AH/SM (5), C/SM, G/AA, C/A, AA/AM, and C/ED.

The best run has been Bucky Hess with a -0.31 8.44 at Reading, put him #27 out of 31 cars and the last car that actually ran under the index in qualifying. A 9.00 index would have made him #16 at -0.56 under, and a 9.05 index would have made him #9 at -0.61 under.

In 2018, the max number of comp cars in any class was B/DA with 13. SS/AH had 38 cars run in 2018. 2017 was 18 B/DA cars, 36 SS/AH. 2016 17 B/DA, 32 SS/AH.2016 12 B/DA, 39 SS/AH. So it appears that there has been significantly more participation in SS/AH than any single comp class for the last several years. A number of these entries are not competitive with the fast guys, but I believe there have been quite a few different cars and engine builders running ETs near the top over the years.

The comparison was brought up between AH/SM and the other SM classes. An A/SMA is 400 in at 2750 lb, once you factor the 250 lb reduction for an automatic, that's 6.875 lb/in. An AH/SM would be 150 lb lighter at 6.875 lb/in than at 7.2 lb/in. So you take the 8.53 A/SMA index and add 0.15 for the weight (maybe a hundredth or two less?) you get 8.68, only 0.07 faster than the current AH/SM index. Does anybody really think all of the stuff you can do in the base SM classes over a Hemi car is worth that little?

Comp needs more cars and a lot of the guys with SS/AH cars like to run them flat out all the time, comp is a great place for that. It's tough to show up at a race with the mindset that you have one of the fastest cars in your class (that's had a ton of rich and talented guys run it over the years) and you probably don't have a chance in hell of winning a round, much less the race.

Just my 2 cents as a comp fan who that would love to run the class someday, hopefully sooner rather than later.

Re: Question on SS/AH & AH/SM
 

Sure it is a highly refined combo, so are the other cars that run .35 under. It's hard not to see it as a bunch of rich guys that think they have spent enough money and deserve a "good index".


SIR, that is EX rich guys. I will sell mine "on the hoof" at Indy. CHEAP

Re: Question on SS/AH & AH/SM
 

I'm catching some grief, it's okay because I actually agree that the index needs adjustment. I do react poorly to pushback and need to be mindful of how it affects others.

Just for grins, lets pretend I own a Super Stock Modified Cobalt and I'm exploring moving to Comp. I would do a quick comparison of classes between Comp and Super Stock with virtually identical weight breaks and rules.


Lbs/ci_____SS class-Index____Comp class-Index_____Change+/-
7.5________SS/AM--9.00______A/SM--8.45_________-.55


8.5________SS/BM--9.20______B/SM--8.66_________ -.54



9.5________SS/CM--9.50______E/SM--9.10_________ -.40


10.5_______SS/DM--9.75______G/SM--9.33_________ -.42


So, if we look at Hemi cars:

7.2________SS/AH--9.60______AH/SM--8.75_________-.85
Lets try 9.05:
7.2________SS/AH--9,60______AH/SM--(9.05)________-.65


On it's face this makes 9.05 look like a number that didn't get pulled out of thin air. But we need to consider the SS/AH index could be a little "soft" compared to SS Modified. How far under in Super Stock do the typical SS Modified cars qualify versus SS/AH. That will define how "soft" the relative indexes might be.

Andrew, you mentioned the Nitro Joe Stats, Five cars in AH/SM. All at national events? That's 5 races with Hemi cars, or five different cars at races?
So, what does a SS/AH racer do? Tough call. Show up in Comp and hope you get past first round and run all out, or run Super Stock and try to try to run a dial in for more rounds?

Re: Question on SS/AH & AH/SM
 

Five cars at 4 different races. Nitro Joes stats shows each racer’s best run, so I’m not sure if any of those 5 cars have run multiple races, but I’m pretty sure some have.

Imo, I think Bucky Hess and Gary Wolkwitz (top 2 Hemi cars in AH/SM this year) have probably put as much time and money into their combos as anyone in any class in comp. if they aren’t competitive with the current index, who will be?

Re: Question on SS/AH & AH/SM
 

I'm gonna' need a flame suit in a second.

Hasn't the class stagnated some without the Wescott's? Did the record go to minimum and get reset slower? If I'm not mistaken SS/AH runs the same weight with or without an auto transmission. Are Hess and Wolkwitz running stick or auto? If auto, could the sticks be faster?