new indexes
 

without any notice we were issued new indexes at ohio valley 1/8 mile open (the old ones still printed in dragster i recieved 10/9)... not all indexes were hit the same ... some -.15 some as little as -.01

are we to ASSUME 1/4 mile indexes wont be a blanket -.20 as was discussed here ?

also RUMORS of new afhs procedure :
all nationals event runs and divisional Qsheet runs counted
1.00 triggers review and 1.15 is automatic horsepower

no indications of altitude considerations

jack mccarthy

len can you give us clarification ???
will new indexes be in effect at indy open ??
when does (has it) any new afhs procedures start ??

Re: new indexes
 

""""also RUMORS of new afhs procedure :
all nationals event runs and divisional Qsheet runs counted
1.00 triggers review and 1.15 is automatic horsepower""""
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this is a great idea,,,,,BUT they need to leave indexes alone and let the AFHS fix the combos,,,,,,,and count every run,,,whether its heads up,,quailifying or class runs offs,,,,,,every run gets counted,,,by this time next year,,,,things will have fixed themselfs,,,,,,,,,,and IMO,,they should give some latitude for weather and altitude,,,,,OR adjust indexes accordingly for low altitude track just as they do for high elevations tracks.......by leaving the indexes alone,,,,combos that arent good ones wont be affected by anything except someone running the same thing,,,,,combos that are factored a little weak, will take care of themselfs

look at it this way,,,if they dont adjust indexes to account for lower elevation or at least make a few tracks exempt from HP hits,,,,you have a guy in seattle setting the standard for a guy at bristol,,,,,,,bristol is very slow AND and they dont adjust indexes

Re: new indexes
 

Jack,

Nothing has changed that would affect races this year. I will check into the Ohio valley question with the tech department tomorrow.

Also, nothing has been solidified on any changes to the AHFS procedure or the. .20 adjustment.

As a matter of fact, tomorrow there will most likely be a posting on the NHRA website, from the tech department, that will solicit input from racers on the above issue.

Re: new indexes
 

i guess theyt left our sporstman liason out of the loop but rich bowers had letter from california stating what new indexes were and they were in effect and to be used ... i assumed for this week in indy they would also use new indexes...

that is why i asked about ahfs changes as it will be 500 feet at indy saturday morning....

as far as changes go....

count me in for at least .20 tenths off (more is better about .50 works for me)

i dont think the ahfs will ever work, however if it is to have a cahnce you MUST count every run, divisionals too, and it needs to take into account the adjusted altitude at time of run... no more altitude tracks exempt and no more second round of class exempt bull****. nhra could make it the tracks responsibility to send this info to nhra in order to host an event... why not ?????????

thank you for your reply len, as always you have our interest at heart !!

jack mccarthy

Re: new indexes
 

>> count me in for at least .20 tenths off (more is better about .50 works for me)

Let's take 1.00 off of all the indexes and return class racing to the true performance eliminator it is supposed to be.

:confused:

Re: new indexes
 

yeah...and every run under the index is an AHFS violation...or we could race like the superclasses of the index..

Re: new indexes
 

Michael,

I'm sure the index changes are for NHRA only.

Jack,

Len is mostly out of the loop on everything - it's only when he has to come out and defend some of NHRA's issues that he is told what to say.

Re: new indexes
 

A two tenths reduction is a good start. May still be a little soft.

I found an National Dragster from the Keystone Nat'ls back in the 90's, and no one ran a second under, in good air, in either Stock or Super Stock. A -.95 under run was considered pretty good. Now, take Indy from 2004. 2200' of air, and the last Stocker to get in on time was -1.051. Granted, everyone was on kill, since it was the 50th, but the Indexes are still in sore need of lowering. Since the last Index adjustment (which was UP two tenths), look at all we've been allowed to do (rule changes, replacement parts, etc). Like Jack has said before, it's not a right to run the Index. When you see cars with about five grand Or less) in them running seven (or more) tenths under, with no trick parts and an accurate (not under-rated HP rating), something seems amiss?

Re: new indexes
 

>> look at all we've been allowed to do (rule changes, replacement parts, etc).

You said a mouthful there!

>> When you see cars with about five grand Or less) in them running seven (or more) tenths under, with no trick parts and an accurate (not under-rated HP rating), something seems amiss?

I don't think the pits are overflowing with these cars. Can you name 10 that are not FWD or turbo cars?

You could knock .70 off the indexes, and it wouldn't change Indy qualifying. The indexes are all relative. What does knocking .20 or .50 or .70 off the indexes accomplish exactly? #1 qualifiers will still be #1 qualifiers, #50 qualifiers will still be #50 qualifiers. Sounds too country club to me. Why don't you just place a minimum on the cars? Every entry must have at least $20,000 invested in the race car (or should we make it a $250,000 minimum, and include tow vehicles and trailers?). Any car not meeting the minimum investment would have to pay the difference between the minimum and the car's value, once per year. Any cash taken in would be redistributed into the points fund at year's end.

Yes, the above is all completely and utterly ridiculous. So why do some people want to change the indexes when it will have absolutely no effect on them? (Presuming that if the indexes were changed, that the AHFS triggers would change accordingly)

People want to talk about the class being a performance eliminator, and then argue about AHFS, combining carb & EFI, combining sticks and autos, and combining weight breaks.

$.02,

Re: new indexes
 

It's up on the NHRA site now. All registered NHRA S/SS drivers are invited to vote.

Re: new indexes
 

[QUOTE=Michael Beard;43488 What does knocking .20 or .50 or .70 off the indexes accomplish exactly? [/QUOTE]

Simple. It helps bring back some performance to two eliminators that were founded as "performance based".

Re: new indexes
 

Anyone considered they may be doing it to keep stockers from entering a national event (or division race) and running super/stock? A few could still do it, but not as many. Going to look now at another post and see which national events are running stock and/or super stock.

Re: new indexes
 

..

Re: new indexes
 

I really want to know how knocking .2 off indexes is going to effect the top qualifiers??? What it is going to do is make those who barely run the index step up their programs just to be able to have a chance at winning a round! Take someone running .2 or less under their index now. Take .2 off their index and they aren't running it anymore. But come time for elims, they must dial their index! Now.....they can't run it, so they are most likely going to get beat! They are going to have to spend more money to run quicker!

What really needs done is the AHFS needs to be changed! Why is their a difference between national events and points races?? 1.40 under for automatic horsepower needs to be scrapped! If we leave the indexes alone......1.25 under anywhere should trigger a review! I mean a single run, not 2 by the same combo, any single run of 1.25 under at any NHRA points earning event (National, Divisional, or Open) should trigger a review at that point in time. Don't wait for the end of a review period either! Take the average of all the runs with that combination...if the average is more than 1 second under they get horsepower! So when someone gets horsepower at one race, then goes out to the very next race and still goes 1.25 under......review it again and hit it again.....instantly! It's bull**** that someone can go to every points race and run 1.30 or better under and not get any horsepower! You can still use 1.15 under for the review periods trigger the way it is now.....but do it at points races too! Keep everything the same across the board!

Re: new indexes
 

Wow and this is coming from someone with a soft combo! Sounds like a good idea... I feel bad for someone like Bubka that has a "TRUE" stocker that will not be able to run next year... I guess it just makes us all have to cheat... Right ED?

Re: new indexes
 

Sorry Mike, but I can't see how it brings back some performance. All it does is force people who can afford to, or barely afford to, spend even more money to go faster and effectively eliminates a lot of potential future racers who can't. Like everyone says, top qualifiers would still be at the top! It seems that many people who want to class race start out with what they can afford and try to at least make the index. Then, as time and resources allow, make their combo faster. But at least they can participate, support the class, buy stuff from contingency sponsors, and enjoy the opportunity to mix it up with the racers they always read about. True, some people may just be content to make the index. But that's a very small percentage. Most want to run faster.

The "performance" is showcased in class eliminations and through those who can afford to show what they got at the top of the qualifying sheet. If someone can afford to feed their ego, fine. But not at the expense of new, less affuent racers or difficult combos that they happen to have. I'm not saying to make it easy to race class, like a bracket race where anyone can run. The indexes do set a minimum, which isn't always easy to achieve, especially for a newbie. Raise the bar too high and you decrease participation, reduce contingency parts sales and give the sanctioning bodies another excuse to consider combining Stock & SS. Putting too much emphasis on "performance" simply makes things more expensive and brings the ones with the deepest pockets to the top, like heads-up classes. Driver "performance" has to be a big part of the equation in the sportsman classes, which is why indexes and dial-ins have helped Stock and SS survive.

Re: new indexes
 

sorry ED,,pulled post off,,,,Ive got a new policy,,,no more arguing

Re: new indexes
 

Great post, Myron.

Buff Daddy writes: >> It helps bring back some performance to two eliminators that were founded as "performance based".

How's that? So a -1.20 under car is a -1.00 under car, and a .60 under car is a .40 under car. It's all relative, like a barometer. The net effect is nothing except telling a scant few to spend more money or go home. True, there's not many, but it's some, and some of those go on to become the future of our sport. Hopefully you have not forgotten where you came from.

I got started in Stock with what I could afford, and was fairly competitive with the Turismo. Sometimes it was an index runner. I spent money on it, and eventually ran -.45 under. So... now it would be a -.25 under car. It's exactly as much "performance" as it was before. I say again, what has been accomplished? I've got a $20,000 Stocker like everybody else now. Yippee. It's not because of indexes, it's because I wanted to have something that I liked, and felt competitive in. They took .20 or .25 off the CM indexes a few years ago. It didn't make the categories any more "performance". All it did was make one guy change to another combination.

If I take my girlfriend's Cobalt out to a points race, and run under the index, will they lower the indexes another .20 because someone didn't spend enough money to satisfy the country club members? (Then again, it's an $18,000 car, too, right?) LOL

The only way to truly bring "performance" into the equation is to lower the indexes to where half the field or more can't run the indexes, make them so nobody can run them so you end up with Comp-style racing, or do something to raise the likelihood of heads-up runs. But no, people clam right up. They only want to set the indexes and AHFS triggers just outside of what *they* run.

Just my opinion,

Re: new indexes
 

Arizona Nationals: 1987 (Presently the CSK Nationals). Stock R/U: Joe Elias. Index:12.95K/SA - '77 Aspen 360/175~265 at the time.
Best ET in qualifying and eliminations: 13.07

Joe didn't use one ounce of shoe polish, the tower just dialed him on the index. He tree'd everyone and did what he had to do on the stripe. Lost in the final after tree'ing the opponent. Carb developed a float problem causing it to run very rich and would not pull high gear, loosing in the final round.

Any other problems that are "impossible" to deal with?

Re: new indexes
 

I thought this was already a done deal as far as Len's post a few weeks ago concerning changes to expect in 08'. Apparantly so did some others as I lost some work to be done and today they are calling asking to hold a place for them until something is decided. This the kind of BS that is keeping this S/SS class in a constant mess. First off the voting is BS. 3 choices and both concern an index reduction, the other just leave the mess the way it is. How about a 4th? Install a panel to review performances based on et. vs mph. And add or subtract HP accordingly. Too simple and far too accurate. Also what about this spec button deal? My trans guy says that "some" racers already know what will be allowed and have transmissions already done and are already using one of the "buttons" that will be legal.
I agree with those who think that lowering the indexes dosen't change a thing. It dosen't. Simple math. Yes WAY too many things have been "allowed" which should have gotten the offending racers time off but instead it was revised to a rule change. A rule change which resulted in a performance gain and more money to spend to keep up. More BS and a lack of sanctioning bodies inforcing their OWN rules and a lack of letting the tech guys do their job.
Several have expressed that these are performance based classes. They used to be. But that was when the average racer built most of his own stuff and was mechanically inclined. And you went thru a stringent tech inspection at every race. Also most of the time the winner and ru pulled a head in the early morning hours. Like it or not that is the way S/SS started out.
AHFS will NEVER work until every run down the track counts. And even then it still needs the human element to be even close to accurate.
Like I have said before, 50% car 50% driver/crew. Run off the index (or record) on a pro tree. Strict rule interpretation and enforcement. Grey area? Shouldn't be one if the rule book wasn't written like a legal document with loopholes to use as the situation arises. Or just factor from a performance base and leave things like they are. Its is already on the computer. Simple?
As for the rule change or interpretation of the month: Total worthless BS. plain and simple.


Why can't we get information in a timely manner? This is the time of year that racers are finishing up their seasons and planning stratagies/and or combos for the coming year. It would be nice to know what kind of button will be legal in SS for 08'. It has apparantly been voted on or opinions solicited. How long is this going to take? Feb. 08'? That has been the norm for the past few years.