A subject for discussion on a winter's day.
 

A number of years ago, then NHRA President Compton was in discussions with someone about splitting the NHRA Sportsmen away from the pros. I guess that the idea was to turn the pro part of the program into a "for profit" business and keep the Sportsmen as "not-for-profit".
Can anyone out there shed any more light on this? How close did this come to being a reality? Do you think that we (the NHRA Sportsmen) would have been any better or worse off had this come about?

I'm just asking questions here.

Re: A subject for discussion on a winter's day.
 

Sorta relavent....
I tried to sell some blue-collar, redneck, diesel loving, thirtysomething friends of mine on LODRS at our closest track. Told them there would be TA Dragsters, (A/FD). Told them they would be near the starting line. They would have a golf cart to cruise pits. They only want AA Nitro fix, otherwise, not interested.
Not sure if we would get many fans...
Mike A114

Re: A subject for discussion on a winter's day.
 

I think the sport of drag racing has changed dramatically over the last 15 years or so. Most spectators want the big noise and the wrecks that come with it. At most of the Divisional events that I have attended most of the fans are friends or family of the racers.

I think a split will come eventually, you know Big Boys versus the rest of the racers. More association races and such.

Re: A subject for discussion on a winter's day.
 

Sunday!!! Sunday!!! Sunday!!!. You don't hear that anymore for Divisional races. Most Divisional races if any don't have local sponsors anymore. Jet cars, wheel standers or other attractions for fans. Free tickets!!! and serve good food. Thank the folks that do come in some memorial way. The tracks that remember those few things have great fan turn outs

Paul.

Re: A subject for discussion on a winter's day.
 

Looks to me like like the splitting has already started, no tech,no tear down to speak of, lower quotas such as in 45 posted and then revised to 60 for now. Sportsmen is truly a not-for-profit already at 60. That Compton was a true visionary years ago.

Re: A subject for discussion on a winter's day.
 

I wonder if class at the "Little Gators" is a feeler gauge towards that split?

Re: A subject for discussion on a winter's day.
 

That is what kinda-sorta got me wondering about this old plan again.

Re: A subject for discussion on a winter's day.
 

Well if you look at the Entries for all the different National races some have all or a few of the following Pro MOD/Top Sportsman/Top Dragster/Top Fuel Harley/Factory Stock Showdowns IN ADDITION TO the regular classes that have always been present in the past plus the T shirt crew parking group/ the exhibition cars and nostalgic exhibition runs ETC.--- the pit areas have generally not gotten bigger while the size of the rigs have--- such as motorhomes and stacker trailers or Semi tractor trailer combos for many racers--sure some guys still have a truck and trailer many don't ---you cant put 10 pounds into a 5 pound bag they are trying to accommodate as many racers as possible with the limited space they have thats part of the problem-----so you add it all up------many more classes---extremely large rigs and hospitality areas---- manufacturers midway -----same size pit areas as 20 years ago----how do you suggest doing it???

Re: A subject for discussion on a winter's day.
 

In Division 1 Gary Richard (from PC Richard & son fame) Every Year gave out Free tickets for Englishtown’s Divisional Race that was held in September.
And 1 ticket was good for a carload of people. You still couldn’t have 1/2 the stands full.
Plus Gary used to Add money to the Winner & RU at the D1 National Open Races.

Re: A subject for discussion on a winter's day.
 

Myron
I think this years Gators has so much going on that their wouldn’t be enough time to
run class eliminations too.
I think theirs like 17 Categories to run plus all the hype for the Gators 50th Anniversary,
which could be the reason.

Re: A subject for discussion on a winter's day.
 

Every thing that you bring up is absolutely correct. It also is/has turned the pro show into a "for profit" entity in everything but name.
Is it time to re-examine Compton's idea of splitting the dog-and-pony show into the "for profit" that it has become and splitting it from the "not-for-profit" Sportsman Racers and would it be to our (Sportsman Racers) benefit?

Re: A subject for discussion on a winter's day.
 

In the last several years I've seen a lot of new positions at NHRA. Not sure how many VP's they have but it seems like every few months there's another one. How about if they were to hire someone that would actually go out and promote the sportsman classes. We are one of the greatest car shows on earth. If they stay with the current model of (DO NOTHING) for us this side of the sport will eventually die.

It's sad most of us are just a bunch of Sheep. We would have a real impact if we could just come together as a group. Even the Pro's can't stick together. Just look at Pro Stock. Wait in a few years when the fuel cars can't field a full sixteen at most races. Can we say combine Top fuel and Funny car and have only one payout. A lot of us own businesses. Could you imagine treating your paying customers like this. Sorry I'm only going to let 50 in today. We don't really need you. Yah I know you helped me build this business but that was yesterday.

Almost all of the grass root NHRA workers that we see at the events are great guys and girls and do a great job. The ones at the top don't seem to really get this sport or have a consistent direction. Maybe they do. It's whoever has the biggest dollar today. But in the end you can only burn so many before it catches up to you. And I wouldn't want any of them to touch me. They seem to slowly kill off anything that doesn't fit their current agenda.
BP

Re: A subject for discussion on a winter's day.
 

I thought the idea back then was to sell off the Pro side to DirecTV, or the founder of DirecTV. They would keep us around, since we are the cash cows.

Honestly, it wouldn't bother me to no longer race with the Pro show. I really only do it once per year because it is close, and when I'm eliminated I hit the road.

Re: A subject for discussion on a winter's day.
 

Billy--The problem as I see it is if HRA splits the show to say Saturday is Sportsman racing only and Sunday would be dedicated to the "floorshow" and Pros only what is HRA going to do after you run first round of 18-24 pairs of Pros off and do the corresponding track clean up on Sunday so 2nd round you only have about 9-12 pairs of cars then another hour to hour and a half between the 2nd and third round ---then you have to 4-6 pairs for the 3 round ----then you end up with 60-90 minutes down time between each round what happens what are you going to do with all that time in between rounds while everyone rebuilds their *****??? I see your point but how can it work??? Unless you run all the Sportsman FINALS on Sunday between rounds of the Pro cars--what really messes things up is you now have Pro Mod running al of their rounds on Sunday and the "showcased" Factory Stock class running entirely also on Sunday-- Too many cars too many classes all trying to run on Sunday and some tracks have "curfews" which cuts into available track time too And I almost forgot the all important JR Dragsters and ET Finalists from somewhere that they need to "showcase too" ---FED 387

Re: A subject for discussion on a winter's day.
 

Here is the problem as I see it(my two cents). I've just gotten back from the Div 2 race in Orlando. The first problem 1) no advertisement, not one red cent was spent to let potential customer that a great show is coming to town. 2) for some reason the track operator doesn't care the have enough staff to welcome you and tell you where to park.3) the track preparation was poor(when cars were going down the track you could see the glue flying of the wheels, they took too much time to resume sending cars down the track after a possible oildowns(just too slow, i saw people leaving and telling me that they couldn't stand the lack of organization) 4) sorry S/G and S/C you need to get the throttle timers out of the cars(way to complicated for the average fan) I know that you will tell me to fly a kite, but when you confuse 7/8 of the people spectating, don't ask why nobody shows up to watch).4) have the race start on Saturday not Friday, guys who work for a living can't attend either as spectators or participant, this should be a saturday and Sunday show only. 5) Allow a class for the Hondas,Toyotas,Subarus, this is what the young people are tuning, this is their Camaros and 55 Chev. You need to advertise or die, you need someone to promote the show. FUNNY CARS< DRAGSTERS RUNNING ALL WEEKENDS!!!! SUNDAY! SUNDAY! I didn't hear one single radio ad.You could have the tech and inspection done at a local shopping mall parking lot, have someone in charge of getting the words to the media(print,TV). If you don't advertise you can be sure nobody will attend.As I said my two cents.

Re: A subject for discussion on a winter's day.
 

The indicators are there....

* Lower quotas at Nat. events
* Run class at Div. events

My prediction for the future is zero Stockers & Super Stockers at Nat. events and the Division races will be where class eliminations are ran

Re: A subject for discussion on a winter's day.
 

I haven't been around the races for a while but was making my living at them when all this came up. I sepnt hours and hours at the tracks and had many conversations with a lot of people close to the action - and of course it was all off the record and not to be printed or attributed.


Sportsman racing was in trouble even when Wally was still alive. Remember, then as it is now, the people in charge had business and accounting backgrounds. They were experts at looking at spreadsheets, balance sheets, and generating profit. Some probably couldn't have told a Mustang from a Camaro if the emblems were removed. But no one was openly downgrading the non-pro side of it because they knew Wally would not stand for it.


Everybody I talked to who might be in a position to know said the same thing: the proposal to split pro vs. sportsman was ONLY to make the NHRA more attractive to buyers. I'm not sure if their lawyers couldn't figure out a way to get around the non-profit thing or if it just didn't make sense to a propective buyer. Connie Kalitta, for one, said that he'd done the numbers on the deal and it just didn't pencil out.


A good point was brought up regarding filling time between rounds. The NHRA could book in some entertainment acts to fill that time. But why shell out money (that could go to salaries and bonuses) if you could get something for the fans to watch - and not just for free, the performers would pay YOU. So yes, they need the sportsman racer but sadly, not in the way any of us want.



Sorry to be so pessimistic. But back then, there were people in the tower or on the grounds who loved cars, loved racing, and had the same look in their eye as we all do. The best I can tell, they're all gone.


We look at it as sport or a hobby. The people making decisions these days look at it as something that can generate money, and more money is more better regardless of what the whole organization was supposed to be about.



As for what would have happened if sportman racing had gone off on its own back then - I think any nationally organized effort would be gone by now. Look at all the different people who've tried to get an organizatiojn or series started. Some looked like they had promise, and others were doomed from the beginning. I won't say it's impossible but whatever or whoever it would take hasn't stepped forward so far.

Re: A subject for discussion on a winter's day.
 

Funny thing is that NHRA reduced the amount of races this year that will have Pro Stockers in competition, yet at Pomona, Pro Stock was the only "PRO" category that had a full field, even had a couple of alternates. By comparison, neither Top Fuel nor Funny Car were even close to having 16 cars each. But I suppose NHRA considers the Nitro cars as untouchable prima donas, so they are immune from such tactics.

Re: A subject for discussion on a winter's day.
 

Don't let the facts get in the way of a good story!

Re: A subject for discussion on a winter's day.
 

...But why shell out money (that could go to salaries and bonuses) if you could get something for the fans to watch - and not just for free, the performers would pay YOU. So yes, they need the sportsman racer but sadly, not in the way any of us want.
Dan Bennett

Mike A114

Re: A subject for discussion on a winter's day.
 

I think they need the sportsman racers now more than ever. With sponsorship money dwindling up and motorsports in general not as big of a draw as it was 20 years ago they need our money more than ever.

Re: A subject for discussion on a winter's day.
 

Cooter, there is no doubt in my mind that they do! BUT, why do we continue to support an organization whose B-O-D can't relate to what it is that we are doing? To the best of my knowledge (OK,OK, calm down) with Light leaving there is no-one on the Board who has ever raced.
I believe that Compton would have been doing us a favor by separating us into two totally different entities. I think that could have been our golden opportunity.

Re: A subject for discussion on a winter's day.
 

the world changed, our country changed so why is it shocking to some that drag racing has changed. It was always about the Benjamin's. Drag racing nor our country is going back to what it was 10 years ago no mind 50 years ago and that should be obvious to all by now. Motorsports is on life support. Enjoy what time it and you have left and stop complaining.

Re: A subject for discussion on a winter's day.
 

Ed, you must have just read Tony Schumacher's article on Competition Plus.
I can assure you that I have every intention of enjoying every bit of the time that I have left! And just like you, when I'm not racing I enjoy complaining.

Re: A subject for discussion on a winter's day.
 

Billy, I did not and I don't enjoy complaining. I live in the greatest country on earth, I've had a great life because of the opportunities available to all in the country, I've got a great family thanks to my wife of 34 years, I've been racing nearly every weekend from April thru November for almost 3 decades and for the last 13 years with my son thanks to Wally's and Vinny Napp's vision and all those in the NHRA that continue to see it through year after year. It's all good!!

Re: A subject for discussion on a winter's day.
 

Ed, I'm glad that you feel that way. I have always considered myself a very lucky man. I have (pretty much) always done whatever I have wanted to do in a way that I have wanted to do it. I guess that it doesn't get much better than that
I will admit to being envious of you for being able to race with your son and sharing in his victories!

Re: A subject for discussion on a winter's day.
 

But, does anybody else care to comment on this subject? And yes, I know that Racing isn't the same as it was 10 or 50 years ago.
I have just always believed that we (the Sportsmen) have much more to offer than we have ever been given credit for. I also believe that we have never been presented/marketed correctly by the sanctioning body and I believe that is intentional.

Re: A subject for discussion on a winter's day.
 

I like to find a positive in every situation...

So it is encouraging to see the division races getting live streaming coverage that anyone with the internet can watch for free. ( Thanks Warren )

That's a huge plus as this allows people ( that may not know much about class racing ) to get a glimpse of what it's all about.

I'll continue to class race as long as I can and enjoy it :)

Re: A subject for discussion on a winter's day.
 

The value of the sportsman is huge .
1.Over 300 to 500 Sportsman cars in The pits
2.The entry fee paid to NHRA way in advance helps pay payroll
3.The actual Presents of having the amount of Sportsman in the pits to show to fans a happening is going on with the actual amount of race cars there.
4 Can everyone imagine in the pits only 60 to 70 pro cars in the pits how
that would look to Paying specatators who are there for the overall
show ?
5.The amount of money spend for Manufactures products sold to sportsman
6.The amount of NHRA membership fees sent to NHRA
7.The support people at NHRA Corp level would go down in time so some
of the decision makers at NHRA that thinks Sportsman are not needed
would lose their jobs
8.All the Advertising money that companies spend to sell to all people involved
to fans, racers would diminished cause no ROI
9.If sportsman were eliminate from national event s where would the purse come from at that race to pay the Pros?
10.I think that if an accountant at a company would look at where the
money is coming from and knew nothing about classes would say the
3 to 4 million coming in from the sportsman a year is pretty good cash flow
11.Sportsman help create a happening in the pits for sure
12.The sportsman help the flow of a Racing continue in between the pros
runs offering a continuing version of race action all the whole day

Re: A subject for discussion on a winter's day.
 

at least half the 12 points below are about the benjamins. Stop complaining about the money, who has it, who gets it, who spends it and focus on the fact that we are all fortunate to be able to do this.

Re: A subject for discussion on a winter's day.
 

I guess the Sportsman racer is there for the taking. IF someone chooses to organize this another way, what would it look like? NHRA rules?
Would there be legal issues using NHRA rulebook type classes in another association? Marketing? Money for the organizer? Is Motorsports worth it? New environmental concerns ALL the time.... Just ramblings on a snowy day here in Ct. Still thinking about Lebrun/ Peters and what Yac said about "getting to it' for those who want to race again.
Mike A114

Re: A subject for discussion on a winter's day.
 

They need us and we need them in todays climate

They are in control and always have been. Nothing new there.

The sportsman racers in general have been slowly getting less and less and paying more and more.

Sponsors have abandoned NHRA for reasons everyone knows and its really hurt the sport overall.

What are the alternatives for many racers.....NONE....they know it...


If there was a Sportsman Union they might boycott or strike and set some demands but that's never gonna happen....and they know it.....


You either make up your mind to take it and continue racing with them or do something else...….bracket racing or quit.....

Re: A subject for discussion on a winter's day.
 

Correct All I am is just pointing out how important and valuable sportsmans are to NHRA

Re: A subject for discussion on a winter's day.
 

I just have one comment. Everyone seems to assume that splitting NHRA into two, one for pros and one for sportsmen, automatically means running separate events, with no sportsmen running in the national events with the pros.

But there's no reason they can't split the businesses and still hold the races jointly. There are lots of races out there with more than one sanctioning body involved.

Re: A subject for discussion on a winter's day.
 

that's another whole conversation, bracket racing. The NHRA's version of bracket racing, weekly points series is also on life support but not big $ gambler races, mainly hosted by independeent promotors which now are contested just about every week throughout the season at tracks all across the country. The premier events are the "Fling" brand of Peter and Kyle and their latest race sold out with 375 entries in 8 minutes. NHRA could never do that no mind pay the $ Peter and Kyle will.

Re: A subject for discussion on a winter's day.
 

Richie, when you're right, you're right. I'm not old enough to do a street rod.
But I'd still like to think that at some point in time the Sportsmen just might be in a position to "rattle the cage".

Re: A subject for discussion on a winter's day.
 

Billy my friend there is no way I would do a street rod either and I wish we had some way to turn things around


It's painful being a part of and watching it all the last 10-15 years....


Nothing would make me happier than seeing a Sportsman organization force California to make some changes.....

Re: A subject for discussion on a winter's day.
 

Billy,
I'm not sure what the entry fee is for a National event, but at last week's Winternationals at Pomona, Stock and Super Stock received two time trials and went into round one at approximately 8:00 that evening.
For the first round runners up their National event experience lacked value.

Re: A subject for discussion on a winter's day.
 

But it's all worthwhile had they spent the night and run first round at 8:00 or 9:00 the next morning as is typical?

Then with the cold and rain, the schedule is behind and the sportsman racer gets "crapped on again" and have to finish up after the Pro show is complete.

Re: A subject for discussion on a winter's day.
 

A lot of guys showed up Thursday (or late Wed) and lost Thursday but in all fairness.. Weather pending moved the show up. With what NHRA had to deal with I think they did a He!! of a job.