2 tenths?
 

Please fill me in on exactly what problem will be solved by removing 2 tenths from stock and SS indexes?

I will start it off:
(1) I now have a total of four SS engines that will not be built or feshened since this has been posted in 2 days. So with a backlog of work to finish by Feb. Instead of being behind schedule I am now on schedule providing no more back out. As a side note, letters have already been typed and mailed to the manufacturers who supply me with regular and specialized parts for these pieces. Guess what? I have already fielded calls from 10 of the 11 manufacturers and they weren't at all pleased. You know that thing about money talks........


OK I just gave you one problem that will be resolved. I already know that index was given quite a few yrs. ago as a move to encourage new racers to move into the s/ss ranks. I also know that is when tech was starting to be overruled more often. (the reason for so many "exceptions") or different or replacement parts were allowed in the first place. But not across the board.

Re: 2 tenths?
 

Engine guy, Isnt this a variation of the HP plan? you know the one where a newer car with a motor which has a 100hp too low rating is allowed to create havoc in the qualifying and class for 5 years maybe even with wrong head ccs? People begin to build them and get rid of older cars or motors hoping to stay competitive and FINALLY factoring accidently happens and wa lah old motors gone, old cars gone, LOTS of MONEY and upset people during and after the 5 years of planned neglect? The FI cars are a perfect example but this time instead of factoring them by looking at written specs a several year split was allowed. THEN when many accepted the technology and they were being factored up the old cars are mainly replaced by more socially accepted late models. Some of the bogus factors remain in GT and SS 305 cars.
I know of 400 chevy owners giving up now due to the "fact" they are more correct but cant keep up with the FI underfactored motors which remain.
I know old Chevies(fill in your brand) arent being sold today and Old corvettes dont sell new cars but could it just be admitted up front and be honest to everyone and more brain power used to begin with?NO because that wouldnt get the new cars into the field which are needed....

Re: 2 tenths?
 

the last time the indexes were adjusted they went UP about .15...

since then we (stock) have been given
unlimited duration
unlimited vale springs
electric water pumps / fans
liteweight brakes
aftermarket ignitions
aftermarket pulleys
ultra lite wheels
radial slicks
... i miss anything ?

superstock has been given
bowtie / aftermarket blocks / parts
any head which pours
any design runners
no alternator
lite wheels
radials
...im sure im short here

this is like a stock market adjustment...
it should only require a little more attention, and more WORK to run the index and solo win class

i raced for 3-4 years BEFORE i ran the number... and qualified at indy once +.02

they shoulda dropped them -.50, but thanks for the effort NHRA

jack mccarthy

and SS engine guy...
if they are paying you for a good motor god knows they should be able to run under the index, hell my stocker is DAMN close.
and if you can run under so what the hell difference is it making...did it ruin someones EGO TRIP (i can go a second under.. oh boy)

Re: 2 tenths?
 

Out of 256 stock & super stock cars qualified @ Indy 156 were a second or better under with 15 more being .990 or better under. That is at a track that is almost a 1000ft elev. It would seem that the indexs are way too soft and out of date. With that said the horse power review should also be lowered to 1.00 sec under and take into account all runs national & divional.

Re: 2 tenths?
 

VERY good posts! All have valid points and I think are well thought out! Mr. Butler offered a good idea of why the indexes should be lowered. If I read the post correctly this could be an attempt to make it harder to run an older model vehicle as opposed to a new one. He also brought up a good point about factoring. The 400 chev. which was given a bowtie block so an under rated combo could be used. The stock block was so thin that it cracked the thrust surface after very few passes. A bowtie block made this a killer combo for 3? years. Finally it was given I think, 25hp. and still was a very good piece. A good example of the proper factor putting the combo in line. Not killing it. Just leveling the field.

Jack, I think you left out a bunch of things that have been "allowed" not given in both s/ss. I won't get into the stock list because that is not what I have concentrated on for quite a few yrs. In SS however, I will add to your list of things that have been allowed:
(A) Aftermarket of replacement heads - because a few wanted this because they claimed the parts just weren't out there to be found.
(B) Aftermarket block - because an underfactored motor combo couldn't live without them. However I don't think that the other manufacturers were given this across the board. Now you need a bowtie to use the 55mm cam due to the stock cam bores not having the meat to install.
(C) One off handbuilt intakes - no comment since I have been repeatedly told by tech that they were absolutely illegal? However they are being passed.
(D) Combustion chamber modifications - my favorite! Racer/racers were torn down and found to have not just relieving around the valves but completely reshaped chambers. Instead of a suspension, after legal action was threatened, a few weeks later they were approved.
(E) Smaller diameter journals - again racer/racers were torn down and found to have drastically smaller journals. Instead of a suspension this rule also was changed allowing these modifications.
(F) Any QJ carb as long as the venturi measurement is the same as allowed - same old story: people can't seem to find the correct carb but ebay is full of them as is Hemmings.

I can list more if necessary when I have the time. These few things along with those you mentioned have greatly added to the performance in some classes in SS. These are closer to Comp rules than SS. However, my customers and myself have bore the financial and maintenance burdon of these "Allowed" changes and kept right on going. My customers are somewhat used to the added expence/time/R&D that these "allowed" instead of "illegal" rules changes have brought.
HOWEVER, racers should not have to put up with underated combos (1.15 or more) under and crossing the scales 300 to 900 lbs. heavy. I don't care if you lower the index .2, .5 or any other number you still will be allowing these combos a hiding place. They are getting hit now. But taking 18-22 lbs. out of a car that is already way heavy is accomplishing nothing. They laugh at the guy at the scales, at tech, and at racers because they have leagally beat the system. They aren't the ones using cutting edge technology, working harder with attention to detail as Jack said. They don't have to because they are protected by a system that uses NO COMMON SENCE whatsoever. I'm not saying make these cars uncompetitive. They still should be allowed the same chance every other racer has to qualify well. But when a car qualifies near or at the top and the car is HUNDREDS of pounds heavy shouldn't that tell the hp committee etc. that the hp rating is way off?

Tim, you brought up a very good point about the qualifying at Indy. However, you know that quite a few of those cars had new bullets, fresh bullets, or "Indy" bullets. I freshened 17 SS motors in the months before Indy. I had 3 completely new bullets with the latest combustion chamber tech and pro stock cam designs that were put into top qualifiers the week before. Indy is the same to me as Christmas is to the retail business. Many of my customers have "Class" engines that aren't used but 2-4 times a year because in order to be fast they run on the ragged edge. Still I think that your comparison of Indy sheets is a good analogy. I also like you idea of -1.00 being a trigger and ALL passes should be counted.

Ending I still am unable to grasp the logic behind lowering indexes. As everyone knows: if I am a second under and another is 6 under by removing .2 from the index still has me having you covered by four tenths. Two tenths means nothing. yet. The questions still remains: How much abuse and BS will racers endure? Most of my contacts during an average day are SS racers/ parts and equipment manufacturers. I don't know but 2 that have ever posted on either forum and those were very brief. For anyone that would like to know. The talk is getting alot more serious in the past few months and it isn't anything like alot of the opionions mentioned in most of these topics. There apparantly aren't nearly as many racers that are just tickled to death about alot of recent changes. And racers, like any other consumer talk with their money.

Re: 2 tenths?
 

SS Engine Guy,

You probably have identified yourself before on this forum but for those of us who may have missed it (like me for example) would you mind telling us once again who you are?

Anybody who refreshed 17 SS motors before Indy is someone I surely want to know.

Thanks,

Mike Keener
Team Checkmate Race Cars

Re: 2 tenths?
 

SS engine guy
Not sure who told you one off intakes were not legal but as far back as 1971 the rule book stated "any intake" of same basic config that will fit under the hood was legal. In 71 they limited the intake to 1" diff in lenght, width and height. In 1972 the 1" limit was removed. I think it was 1994 they added additional wording to keep the crossram crossed and inline inline.
Also don't remember anything about journal diameters being limited to stock unless that is thought to be lightening the crank but then so would -.010 or -.030. Usually when they find someone doing something they don't like they publish a rule change like they did for valve sizes. +.005, -.015. Never saw that for the main journals. Could have missed something on this one though.

On another note, when you have a Stock class car enter and win Super Stock at a national event, would seem like an index adjustment is in order.

Re: 2 tenths?
 

not tring to start anything but i know when the FI cars were with the carb cars it was no contest the fi cars were much faster, how fast can the FI cars go? The final at memphis the 2 bfia cars went into the 50's off the throttle? i was going 70's with my stuff will we be at a big disadvantage??? With our old carb cars??

Re: 2 tenths?
 

Now Mickey, how fast did you go against Brenda Grubbs in Bradenton? Besides, i have said this before we have been hit with 61 Horsepower since the first outing of the LT1!

Re: 2 tenths?
 

2 tenths faster than i will ever go again, conditions were better than i have ever seen, my dragster has not run within 17 hundreths of what it did in bradenton this year yet? And it's not supposed to be affected by the air that much 582 profiler motor. At memphis i couldnt get in the fifty's no matter what! Maybe a 62

Re: 2 tenths?
 

And how long did it stay at 275 HP before the first hit? How many years Mr. Josey?
LT-1 was the most protected GM engine next to the early 327-250 which has never been adjusted.
Both are still way light in SS and there is no denying it.

Re: 2 tenths?
 

[QUOTE=Stewart Way
On another note, when you have a Stock class car enter and win Super Stock at a national event, would seem like an index adjustment is in order.[/QUOTE]

Good point but is it the index that needs fixing or the HP factor on the engine?

Anything other than the normal balance job was considered lightening same as cross breeding of parts ie: small journal crank in a large journal engine. Bearings that would be size that could be purchased at your favorite parts house or listed in price list. New ruling clarifies this.

As I said, no comment on the intake as there is still lack of communication between what will pass and who will pass. I have no opinion on this either way.
The problem lies in who is determining what is "same configuration" as original. example: a sbc with something close to a symetrical intake port spacing. Does "same configuration" mean that it retains stock intake port spacing and is able to adapt a QJet intake on it or does "same configuration" mean that it can be bolted onto a sbc in some form or another? Like has been said many times, just because the rulebook doesn't say you can't do it. That doesn't mean that you can. When divisional tech is constantly overruled by Cali. who do you go to when you need a clarification?

In the mean time, What benifit is there in taking -.2 off the indexes? And while we are at it, anybody know why good tech guys are being lost?

Re: 2 tenths?
 

engine talk engine work im a dummy, but i know what my motor will run and what others will, i just think were a little behind, not complaining but just don't won't to bring a knife to a gun fight! would like it to be close if they put us in the same classes.

Re: 2 tenths?
 

I think there will be a few of the older cars that will be competitive with the new stuff, but overall the advantage will shift to the newer technology IMO.

Re: 2 tenths?
 

NHRA is just returning the 2 tenths that was raised in the 90's due to performance levels that have been going on for the last 15 years, Actually they should have lowered them 5 tenths based on what the records show.

Re: 2 tenths?
 

Has there been a decision as to where the trigger will be for the AHFS with the 2 tenths reduction on the indexes?

Re: 2 tenths?
 

Well Mr Real Racer, for the first couple of years there weren't but 2-3 cars, thats the reason. Yea you wish there were none ever raced and modern technology was still on the proving grounds, all i can tell you is, the new cars are here so get over it!

Re: 2 tenths?
 

By the way real racer, do you have a dog in this fight?

Re: 2 tenths?
 

what I dont understand is why the hit of .20 tenths???? The only ones it hurts is the struggling racer that is learning the hard way (LIKE ME),,,,I dont understand what this will accomplish..........woundnt it be better to take a closer look at the results and do the hit where its needed and leave what isnt alone????....,,,the results tell the tale,,,,,,,,,,look at the finals in memphis......If I were speculating,,,I would guess that the winner shut it off early to avoid running faster,,,,,now I dont know this for a fact,,but I was told that heads up runs wasnt considered in the factoring method......OK,,if that is true,,,,why????? thats were your going to see who has got what,,,,,,if they trigger it and its LEGAL,,,then that combo should be hit on monday morning,,,,,so looking at the results,,,,,again,,,Im just specing here,,,,,,that combo should ahve been hit,,,He went .11 quicker under the index that anyone on the quailfying sheet and APPEARED to be on the brakes,,,,,,now what would suck to have a combo in the making and have someone get it hit over and over BUT thats why its stock elminator and not strickly bracket racing,,,,,,,,,,its very evident that both B/fia cars whre hidding what they could really run and this is where the powers that be need to look a little close,,,,,something odd in round 5,,,,,,the events winner,,,(IF THE RESULTS ARE CORRECT) either misjudged fletcher OR just give the strip to him,,,,,,,,didnt take strip by .010,,,,and appeared to be down at least 2 mph or more based on rd 3 elim against roper,,,,,dont know the weather,,conditions might have been different,,but again based stricky on what I can read,,,thats alot of MPH to be down and not loose any et,,,

now this is not to upset anyone,,,but giving a PERSONAL OPINION on the tech guys not paying attention to what combos need hit,,,,and whos not,,,,,I understand that looking at each run could be time consuming,,,but if they know what their looking for then it would be simple,,,just have the system to alert on any runs over 1.00 and any heads ups,,,then the tech guys could visually look at that competitors individual runs taking into consideration all incremental times,,,,,,,,,,a perfect example would be looking at the 1000ft marks,,,,you got a guy with unusual quick 1000fts,,,,but a mph that dont match,,,then maybe it needs looked at,,,,maybe a system could be wrote to look at the 1000 ft marks and factor them off of those,,,

again,,dont anyone get upset,,,just using those results to state an opinion

Re: 2 tenths?
 

When nhra broght stock back in 1974 there was a 10 year old limit anything older than 10 years had to run superstock.
Where would all the carb guys be if they resurected that rule. I think there would be a slew of 2003 neons out there. LOL
Back in 94 I thoght nhra was going to promote the fwd cars. For the corporate sponsors But nhra couldn't have cared less all they were interested in was PRO stock.
What I'm getting at is nhra will do what it wants when it wants and thats that.
For every racer they hurt a racer gets helped.So goes life.

Re: 2 tenths?
 

instead of dropping the index 2 tenths they should of dropped the ahfs 2 tenths then started trying to correct all the soft combos by dropping the index all they are doing is elimanating all the lower qualifiers from competing on a national level

Re: 2 tenths?
 

Tgriffith? are you sure you are getting "Screwed" or just that your is slow and you need to make it faster?

Re: 2 tenths?
 

mark,,I m not sure I understand the question,,,,but I`ll answer it like this ,,I dont consider my self getting screwed,,,I just question the rule and how it applys to me,,,I think that building a stocker is part of the game this may affect racers like me who have limited knowledge with stockers or I should say beginners,,,,,a far as the rule effecting whether or not I can race stock,,,it doesnt,,,,,,I can purchase any stocker out there thats for sale and dont have to barrow the money to do it

Re: 2 tenths?
 

[QUOTE=Jack McCarthy;41702]the last time the indexes were adjusted they went UP about .15...

since then we (stock) have been given
unlimited duration
unlimited vale springs
electric water pumps / fans
liteweight brakes
aftermarket ignitions
aftermarket pulleys
ultra lite wheels
radial slicks
... i miss anything ?

Polished valves. Removal of heaters, wiper motors, wheelie bars, fuel cells.

Re: 2 tenths?
 

LOTS of piston choices
+.030" bore
Better tires
LOTS of technology improvement in clutches, converters and transmissions
Data recorders, O2 sensors, exhaust heat monitoring, etc.

Re: 2 tenths?
 

How about a racer telling me when I said "why did you show your hand in class when the guy went red/"

He said........"it was second round of class I started to go 1.50 under just to piss people off but I lifted and only went 1.30 under." Why does 2nd round of class not count towrad AHFS. That has to be the stupidest thing I ever heard.


Herb Jr

Re: 2 tenths?
 

This is what the results are by lowering the indexes 2 tenths.

BEFORE AFTER

#1 B/FIA -1.102 #1 B/FIA -.902
#2 D/SA -1.100 #2 D/SA -.900
#3 A/SA -1.007 #3 A/SA -.807
#4 B/FS -1.002 #4 B/FS -.802
#5 E/FIA -.980 #5 E/FIA -780

#94 G/SA -.193 #94 G/SA -.007
#95 L/SA -.120 #95 L/SA +.080
#96 K/S -.004 #96 K/S +.196

What's the difference. The spread is still the same, #1 is still #1, #2 is still #2 etc.
The only people this affects is the bottom of the qualifying sheet. Those who cannot run on or under are sitting ducks. When it comes to eliminations, the handicaps are going to remain the same, regardless of qualifying position. The only thing this does is inflate the egos. "I can go 95 under" vs "I can go 1.15 under"
It is still the same ratio.
I truly believe this is a result of really fast cars not wanting to hit the trigger and are looking for a way out.

The heck with it, just lower the indexes one full second, eliminate the trigger system, and reduce the classes to 3. A/Stock B/Stock C/Stock. Eliminate tech and employ a lie detector

Ron Ortiz
U/SA taking the fun out of stock

Re: 2 tenths?
 

If you dont mind a comment from a non racer at this point, it seems THE comment on this thread that could be the most constructive is the one about lowering the AHFS trigger et. Obviously fast people who have worked hard on their cars would be against it at first but it would also make the poorly factored cars come back in line more quickly. It would need more class racing to bring up the need to run fast or maybe just the challenge of fast qualifying to make it work but it would level the field quicker.
This would also take NHRA tech out of the factoring business more. If they made it too low hp and someone built it, it would be adjusted quickly by its own performance, not waiting for someone in tech to care about it killing the other heavily factored cars in the classes.
The 2 tenths off is a good idea as it 1) resets the goal being number 1 to a more reasonable number
and 2) keeps from really creating a unreasonable goal for the beginner. Everyone running today started out slow and worked into the ets we see from experience and hard work.

Lol Now That's Funny Ed !!!!
 

Eddie O'brian said.... "Try this it will fix the problem . Put a $ 1000.00 claim on heads ! You provide good core and they keep the
valves and springs you trade bare heads for bare heads .Have a nice day"

Re: 2 tenths?
 

How much are bare max wedge heads Jerry?

How much are bare max-wedge heads ??
 

Jim not 100% sure but my guess is about $5,000 or so at least ?? that's why I said " Lol now thats funny Ed" because I just can't see Nhra allowing what Eddie was babling about that to happen can you or anyone else?? Have a nice evening shade.

Re: 2 tenths?
 

Most all are good posts but still the question remains: What will 2 tenths accomplish?

One answer comes from several racers that I have spoken with in the last 24 hours. It is the ground work for NO HEADS UP RUNS.

I also like the idea of lowering the ahfs trigger by 2 tenths.
I also like the idea of a long hard look at et vs. mph.
I also think that ALL runs should count.
All way too logical. Real world factoring would get rid of alot of problems. Some don't think that the big picture is intended to eliminate any problems but rather to change the class racing format.

Re: 2 tenths?
 

One thing this will effect is bye runs in Class. Now you have to run what would have been .7 under to win on a single.

Re: 2 tenths?
 

Engine guy the bottom line is cosmetics. It sure looks like a weak racing sport when so many people can run SO FAR UNDER. All the reasons for this are stated in a couple of quotes. Question is whether S and SS racing is supposed to be made so easy a street car can qualify? If I remember a rental car qualified somewhere right?
Just because people Want to run S or SS doesnt mean it is owed them to compete does it? Shouldnt some level of achievement be kept to gain entry to the Class racing? or winning a trophy, or getting into eliminator( I tend to believe if you beat someone to win class you qualify. A standard et under to enter on bye run is fair)

We Will All Be Toast......
 

.....So this is what we will do Eddie lol Have a nice evening shade. <center><a href="http://www.blogadorn.com"><img src="http://www.blogadorn.com/graphics/humor/humor00239.gif" border=0 alt="BlogAdorn.com"></a>
<BR><a href="http://www.blogadorn.com">

Re: 2 tenths?
 

"The heck with it, just lower the indexes one full second, eliminate the trigger system, and reduce the classes to 3. A/Stock B/Stock C/Stock. Eliminate tech and employ a lie detector"

Hey, Ron....I'm glad to see you finally got the right idea. I think you can make C/S in the wagon with a hemi and a Jerico. Don't forget the dana!

How about this? Average ALL the runs in each class and reduce the index by the average amount each class is under the index. That would make qualifying interesting and something to strive for. It would certainly bring the performance aspect back to the class. Remember, it is not a 'right' to be able to run under a S/SS index.

Re: 2 tenths?
 

Arnold I really like your idea!

Don't forget that I have said many times: "Lets run em' off the record". And let the chips fall where they may. I couldn't care less whether a sactioning body ever made a dollar or not. A HP figure at best is someones guess at a potential. I just think that the people who are setting these HP figures are not taking into consideration performance and potential performance. That only makes sense to introduce a level playing field. Apparantly a level playing field isn't wanted by the sanctioning bodies or some racers. I know that it is hard to please all the people all the time but if you are really trying you will please most of the people most of the time. If I were King we would all be class winners before we were advanced into the eliminator. Thats how I started and that is the way I would like it. That is good for me because I build my own stuff and have loads of data from many combinations.(self serving opinion) That would be terrible for someone without a big budget. Especially younger racers which this sport needs to survive. So I see no problem with an index system. I only question this 2 tenths announcement because I see no problem that it solves. I still see the need for HP adjustments on quite a few combos. If you are going to be a high qualifier you should at least be wide open and within 50lbs. of minimum weight. If you aren't you are BS'ing yourself and maybe some racers----- but not all racers.

Re: 2 tenths?
 

The only problem it solves is keeping the young racers with a low budget out for the most part.

Re: 2 tenths?
 

I think someone earlier hit on the answer - stockers running super stock at races where stock isn't contested. This has created a lot of heat for NHRA. 4 tenths would have solved the problem completely.

Re: 2 tenths?
 

I agree with engine guy run them off the record. The ahfs is a joke. I was told by an A/SA record holder that his L-72 was making around 620 Whats the ahfs on that bad boy. Lose the shoe polish and run um. Thats drag racing. I believe when you race to be at place at a certain time its called a road rally. Ofcourse I know I am in the minority, at least on this forum.