indy tech fiasco's
 

once again the teardown process at indy turns into a fiasco. 3 sets of heads with 4 angle seats are allowed in, heads with less cc's than stated in guide are passed, and motor's with crossbred parts and wrong specifications are passed... and why ??? because the national powers to be will not ALLOW THE TECHMEN TO DO THIER JOB.

wesley will no longer attend, and travis is made a fool of every year (he has to attend it is his division) and the beat goes on... every year we get new "policy" aprroved because if this bull****. no damn wonder NHRA has openings for "qualified" techmen... who would want to be abused like this ...bad enough when racers are the problem, but when your boss wont let you enforce the rule book why even bother (which i migh add seems to be the feeling over last few years letting all this bull**** get out of hand)

you know NASCAR has NO PROBLEM enforcing thier rules, fining thier elite, confiscating parts on a FAIR LEVEL because no-one is above the rules... why cant NHRA get its **** together and allow the tech department to regain the RESPECT it deserves ???? right now its just one big JOKE !!!!

this is a divison 3 race and the division 3 tech department should be allowed to do thier job, period.
AND... a GOOD supervisor would be there only to support the division techmans decision, not override it !!!

jack mccarthy

Re: indy tech fiasco's
 

MR.JACK,

If your going to run your mouth get your story right.............
I was at the 2005 Daytona 500 in the pits one of the teams, and Jeff Gordon went through post race inspection and his rear deck was to low.So he told NASCAR it was that way due to post race burn out and they allowed the car to pass WHY???????? Due to he puts fans in the stands..........

The U.S. Nationals maybe in at a divion 3 track but NHRA runs the show so my advice to you is if you love your tech guy's stay at the divisional level............

We race and have to realize that at the end of the day NHRA is the power to be and what they say goes.....
and you either say ok or WHINE about it.I have been bounced after fuel check at a natianal event with sunoco fuel that checked one week before at a divisional race and they checked it 3 times for me, and it was one of my divison tech guy's that check it and I asked him how this happened and he said NHRA rules say this is not right so I went and changed all my fuel to VP and wow it checked. So at the end of the day wheather it's division 1,2,3,4,5,6,or 7, tech guy's they still have to answer to NHRA and they do their job and it's our job to put on a great race for the fan's no matter what NHRA say's that we do not agree with. so open your car door ,get in,buckel up, shut up and go race ....................dont allow NHRA power's to be to ruin your race weekend. As my dad say's "race your race with the rule's NHRA say you have to run or leave the car at home".

Jeremy Waibel
K&N 69 Camaro
NHRA B/SA 2231

Re: indy tech fiasco's
 

Hmmm, if you were not busy preparing and racing your own car, it's no wonder that you had plenty of time to sit in the tech barn and watch the proceedings:rolleyes:, and no wonder that you are whining so much......you must be pretty damn important for the NHRA to let you observe all the teardowns.
I don't see any mystery here, sounds like sour grapes from someone with too much time on their hands. (not racing)
Maybe you should give up racing for an exciting career in NHRA tech.:rolleyes:

I hear the same shyt from losers at the bracket tracks, who should be working on their own programs, to improve their own results.:rolleyes:

Re: indy tech fiasco's
 

Could the 4 angle valve jobs you are talking about been on aluminum heads?

Re: indy tech fiasco's
 

Jack was there racing and what he observed was the truth. Mr. Flying W was NOT there (at least he was not racing) and does not really know what happened. We have very competent tech men, but when they are not allowed to do their job by the head of the tech dept., their hands are tied.
Patsy

Re: indy tech fiasco's
 

Goob, actually Jack has quite valid points. As for having plenty of time to check out the barn, National events have more "hurry up and wait" time than the Bracket Finals. I'm sure that's even more the case at Indy.

When are you going class racing, brotha? Come out and join the party, then you can comment from experience. ;)

It ain't whining if you bring a valid and logical debate to the table.

Re: indy tech fiasco's
 

I never said anything about not having competant officials... What I said was that at the end of the day, the ruling of the NHRA is what stands no matter what the opinion is of the local divisional tech officals.

You are correct in saying that I was not there, due to recovering illness however you are incorrect to say that I do not know what was going on in the particular instance with Doug Patrick, I was on the phone with him while it was taking place.

My whole point is that NHRA tech officials govern their races the way they see fit, and divisional tech officials govern theirs how they see fit and if you are racing at a NHRA governed event and the rules dont happen to go your way, dont use the excuse that it is a division track and they need to be able to run it... this stops the "good ole boys" in every division. Just accept it and move on...


Jeremy Waibel
69 Camaro B/SA 2231

Re: indy tech fiasco's
 

Guys,

I have to side with ol' Capt Jack on this one. Too many times we have seen the rules twisted by the higher-ups at nhra races. The tech guys are trying to do their jobs, and admittedly they do not have a perfect record, but 4 angle valve jobs and cross breeding parts are not hard calls to make. It is nhra's job to properly enforce it's own rules - there is no question about that.

Tear down at Indy is unique. Every Class racer on the grounds can hear a wrench hit the concrete floor in the barn or hear a guy cussing because he dropped a bolt in the grass on the tent side.

Too many people have become indoctrinated to the whims of nhra and it's the principal reason they get away with this unprofessional behavior. And that ain't whinning.! It's the damn truth!

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I am not sure even why we are worried about every one else, because you should run your car, according to the rules set forth, and not worry about every one else.

I know when I go to National events and even divisional races, VERY few times have I had time to go down to the tech barn to be nosey and see what was going on ? Why you might ask ? That is because I am dealing with my sponsors and making sure that they are happy, and making sure that my car is running good, so that I can put on a great show for everyone there.

The only times I hanging out at the tech barn is when it is my car, or a team members car.

Why dont we all just worry about our own racing and what it will take to make our own cars #1 than making sure that you are crucifying the people that are put in the position to make the decisions that will NEVER please everyone.

Jeremy Waibel
B/SA 2231

Re: indy tech fiasco's
 

Jeremy -

You keep trying to smoke the issue into something it is not and something that is totally different than what Jack is saying. I agree with Jack that the fair and unbiased quality of tech decisions (whether at Divisional and National events) is something that is of utmost importance in this sport. The conduct of the officials should be irreproachable and there should not be any shadow of sidestepping the letter of the rules in their decisions. Any time that there are questions about the conduct of a tech person or crew or office, these questions need to be addressed and answered. That is not to say that every racer has the authority to be a judge or that every gripe has equal weight and importance. But, to assume that we pay no attention to the tech process or that the decisions handed down should be accepted without scrutiny will create an environment that allows corruption to sneak in too easily. Integrity in tech decisions in stock and super stock is a core value that must be fought for or else the categories will disappear.

Re: indy tech fiasco's
 

>> I am not sure even why we are worried about every one else, because you should run your car, according to the rules set forth, and not worry about every one else.

Wow... That would be true if the rules set forth were being administrated equally and properly. If there is a concern that such is not the case, then I think people have a right to be concerned!

Take Patrick out of the equation -- from what I've read, I agree with you. There were others in the barn that were in question. Are you saying that folks shouldn't worry about someone being passed who was in fact illegal?

To me, the worst Indy teardown story is still regarding a gentleman who was tossed for actually having STOCK heads. (Figure that one out.)

Re: indy tech fiasco's
 

ONE person did not decided Doug Patrick's fate at Indy. There were multiple tech officials that looked at and check the head. We are not talking about improper weight of pistons, a ring flange being to high, or any of the other problems... we are talking about a descrepency in measurements of over 2CC's. If there had been a consistant wrong measurement then the fault would lay soley on Doug and Bob Dennis, however when you can not duplicate a measurement of liquid, how can you say that person is wrong... the fault at that point lies with NHRA tech officials.

If they would have been able to duplicate numbers just once then this would not be such a big deal. However, please do not judge the entire situation and classify someone in the same category as those that come in with pistons to light, or ring flanges that are not right, especially when it is not their fault that the tech officals can not get a proper reading.

I am not one for people that cheat either, and I would not defend someone who I knew to be 100% wrong. However, I will defend someone who is getting crucfied for nothing.


Jeremy Waibel
B/SA 2231

Re: indy tech fiasco's
 

Jeremy take some advice and stop posting on issues you have no idea what your talking about. Doug did great in the eliminator and I'm very happy for him. Leave it be...

Re: indy tech fiasco's
 

jeremy,
i agree about a 1/2 cc is only slightly wrong... and charley bob got what he had coming for the pistons... but the POINT here is... wrong is wrong... at least it used to be

anyway... i think you all get my opinion, like it or not.

jack mccarthy

Re: indy tech fiasco's
 

If you look at them I was the one that started the post of Doug being 100 % legal !!! I am very proud of him as well I think that he showed a great representation of Division 2.

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The "liberal enforcement" of the rulebook is one of the main reasons I stopped racing a few years ago, and will be the main reason why I will not race much after this point.

Let's start a list of items NHRA tech has scewed up on:

1. Doug Partrick allowed to race after having too small by 0.5 cc combustion chamber.
2. 4-angle valvejobs in stock, can't remember who.
3. A 440 cid engine with 400 main journals, Steve Wann.
4. Aluminum heads on originally cast iron, Bill Hawk.
5. Single 4bbl head on originally dual four bbl, 67 Shelby
6. Closed chamber heads replaced with open chamber heads (or vice versa), 396 BB Chevy Rectange ports.
7. Year model 1998 Lt-1 engine, they were actually LS-1's.

Re: indy tech fiasco's
 

Chris,

1. NHRA Rule book, Section 19.6.2, Page 264, Paragrah 2: Margin of error is 1% of 1cc. There is not a burrettte that is that accurate, not even electronic.

2. 4 angle valve jobs are illegal according to the rule book.

3. There is no rule in Super Stock that prevents the use of the 383 block as a 440 block. What if you bore the mains to a 400 size? If you look, the rules apply to the conecting rods journal size and not crankshaft.

4. Aluminum replacement aftermarket heads have been approved for many, including Ford and Chevy.

5. Dual 4bbl.; blame NHRA and not the racer. They did what NHRA allows anyone to do; show documentation. The same pratcice has been used to incorporated other engines in the class such as the Olds 350 EFI that was used in the Cadillac.

6. Closed chamber vs. Open, blame again NHRA and not the racers.

7. LT-1 engine use; NHRA allowed it.

In a nutshell, NHRA makes the rules and the call, not the racer.

Re: indy tech fiasco's
 

SS Div6,

Please read all the words.

Chris

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Chris i have explained time and time again why the LT1's were made legal for the 98 Camaros and Firebirds,,,,,,,,let it rest son, your bitching isn't going to make it go away! Bitching about NHRA and the Tech issues isn't going to help either, believe me, i have been there and done that. The Tech guys are trying their damnest to do their Job!

Re: indy tech fiasco's
 

[QUOTE=FlyingW;39731
I know when I go to National events and even divisional races, VERY few times have I had time to go down to the tech barn to be nosey and see what was going on ?
Jeremy Waibel
B/SA 2231[/QUOTE]


At the Indy U S Nationals, on tear down day unless your running a SSer also, you have nothing to do.

Re: indy tech fiasco's
 

Chris,

That "of" in the 2007 Rulebook is a typo. For years it read "1 percent OR 1cc". Also, the engine builder is supposed to BUILD in that much tolerance. You don't get to be that much to the ILLEGAL SIDE and still be considered legal.

Jerry

Re: indy tech fiasco's
 

Meant to say Chris and SSDiv6.

Jerry

Re: indy tech fiasco's
 

forgot what race or what year.
guy kept going to the barn, a tech man asked if his car was there, he said no was just looking at guy in his class stuff.
tech man said since you wana be here go get your car and pull the left head (hardest)
i try to glance from a distance since then.
jim

Re: indy tech fiasco's
 

Hey Jimmy,,,,i try not to go anymore!:D

Re: indy tech fiasco's
 

Michael, I have neither the $$$$ or energy to do what you class racers do, I ADMIRE the effort and results y'all get, and the tough work it takes to just compete, let alone be at the top of the game.
Wednesday through Friday are the only days of the Nats worth attending for me, because that is when I get to see the awesome display of ingenuity and performance wrung out of the combinations allowed.

Where does my '67 post Deuce 230 6 cylinder fit into Stock racing?

Trust me, I'm considering it, I haven't driven the car since '99, it's going to hell in a handbasket as it sits, but I also am not one for "drive in cruising" a 6 cylinder car with no radio and a rubber mat floor......

I've got almost enough stuff to do a smallblock/stick conversion on the car, but it's tough to cut up a 42K mile car at this point. Then I'd need a correct block and heads to complete it for class racing.....I have stuff that is the same junk, just with the wrong casting numbers.

Sorry, didn't mean to get off topic.....

Re: indy tech fiasco's
 

Many have gone to the Mod classes just to get away from the "risk" of tear down. Smart move if you like higher dollar motors. It seems to be a Non SS or S type car though if you dont have to prove it is within a spec except cubic inchs and lbs.

Re: indy tech fiasco's
 

Dave, if you are serious, there is one man you need to contact: Steve Tarence (Spelling?)

From either Kentucky or Tennessee, Steve ran a most unique Chevy II in, I think V/S. He used the 194 engine and a 3 speed.

This car sounded like it left at about 11,000 rpm, which would be a bit much for something with a crankshaft that was 10 feet long. Many times, he would win at Music City Raceway in their stock/super stock weekly combo. I think he even runner-upped at the US Nationals in the 1970's.

This was a car that if you ever saw it run, you never forgot it.

(And sorry too, for getting so off-topic.)

Re: indy tech fiasco's
 

Steve Terrance, is the correct spelling, I think. The team was Huff, Terrance, and Watson. Used to be a killer car back in the day, on the "hot car" side of "the Hill". Back then, it was Jimmy Bridges, Harry Vineyard, Tucker Parrish, Don Wolfe, Danny Coffman, Kenny Schindler, Cliff Reigle,and sometimes Cotton Perry, among others I can no longer remember, running both Combo I and Combo II. If you could win Combo at "the Hill", you were just plain bad, car and driver, and could win anywhere. "Peanut" Watson was always a threat in Jack Huff's cars. "Peanut" can probably tell you where most any of the people and the cars are, he's still one of the best machinists around.

Re: indy tech fiasco's
 

Woody--I agree with you 110% . You said it all --"LET IT REST SON". Enough already.

Re: indy tech fiasco's
 

Alan,
Please email me at bobrice@coastalnet.com.
Thanks,
Bob Rice