2018 FS showdown posted.
 

http://nhraracer.com/content/general...342&zoneid=132


"Those not qualifying will not be permitted to run in the Stock eliminator as in past years".

Re: 2018 FS showdown posted.
 

Did I read this right? Any year engine in any body as long it's the same manufacturer??




Bret Velde
2003 SS/LA

Re: 2018 FS showdown posted.
 

I also noticed that the Whipple (aka "big blower") 2010/2012 CJs are listed. Those were previously SS only.

Re: 2018 FS showdown posted.
 

The 5.4L motors can’t compete with the 2.3L blowers the current stockers have.

Re: 2018 FS showdown posted.
 

Glad to see these changes happen for the class. Going to be a fun season

Re: 2018 FS showdown posted.
 

What about people with those cars that don't wish to run heads up in the showdown but just in regular stock eliminator, can they choose to just run in regular stock eliminator qualifying and not the showdown qualifying?

Re: 2018 FS showdown posted.
 

Agreed, no way the 5.4 with a 2.3 blower can compete at 3550 as the new rules states all cars will weigh 3550. Looks like a good move for the 5.4 by NHRA.

I here Ford Performance is no longer interested in doing anything for the 5.4. In fact, inside sources tell me that FP is actively trying to change the rule that now lets the 5.4 run the bigger blower. What a shame, racers that have supported Ford and brought back the Cobra Jet name have no future. Obviously I hope NHRA sticks by the new rules as it affects my combo, but there are many more 5.4 that would now be competitive, which is what I thought FP wanted.

Re: 2018 FS showdown posted.
 

LOL I believe Mike from Ford Performance is working for Roger Allen!

It's not right what he is doing to the '08,'10, and '12 Cobra Jet racers. Mike told all the older Cobra Jet owners that he was going to fight to be able to put the 2.9L Supercharger on to be competitive. When NHRA approved it, Mike turned around and said Ford is not interested! Even after he made all these promises through email.

The 2010 & 2012 Cobra Jet 5.4L with the 4.0L Supercharger is a stock eliminator combination. When they first came out with the combination it was deemed Super Stock because there was no weight break for that Horse power in Stock Eliminator. Now there is, in fact that combination now could have been run in Stock Eliminator for the past 4 years. It is no different then when Don Fezell put so much Horse Power on the 08 Stock Eliminator combination that they moved him to Super Stock until they came out with the new weight breaks.

NHRA informed Ford Performance that this combination was eligible for Stock and Mike still want's to remove it from the showdown class combination. Huh, doesn't make sense for Ford...

Now Ford Performance wants all combinations to weigh 3550, that completely eliminates all '08,'10, and '12 Cobra Jets from Factory Showdown classes.

Mike from Ford Performance and Roger from COPO have a big problem with the Dodge Drag Pack.

This is a very ego driven sport that we are in, Ford Motor Company will lose Millions of dollars a year because of these decisions by Ford Performance. Not only in drag racing but in new car sales. 95% of the people out there who race a brand buy that brand their entire lives. If Ford Performance is not going to back up their racers on paper and approve a combination, that is a big failure to the racers and enthusiasts.

Jim D'Amore

Re: 2018 FS showdown posted.
 

-Ford 5.4 331 cu inches at NHRA maximum specs will be 342 cu inches
-Chevrolet 350 cu inches at NHRA maximum specs will be 370 cu inches
-Mopar 354 cu inches at NHRA maximum specs will be 374 cu inches

Now coming into play, adding another 2 atmospheres of air with the use of a supercharger at approximately 26 psi boost.

Ford 5.4 NHRA max specs 342 cu in with 2 atmospheres of air is 1026 cu inches
Chevrolet 350 NHRA max specs 370 cu in with 2 atmospheres of air is 1110 cu inches
Mopar 354 NHRA max specs 374 cu in with 2 atmospheres of air is 1122 cu inches

So under boost Chevrolet is 84 more cubic inches and the Mopar is 96 more cubic inches than the Ford engine combination.

The 2.9L front entry Supercharger spinning to 9,000 engine RPM will produce 26 psi boost in both the GM and Mopar.

The 4.0L Supercharger with the 4.00” pulley on it at 9,000 engine RPM will produce 24 psi boost on the Ford 5.4L motor.

Some say the Ford has a better flowing set of heads which is true but we are limited with camshaft lift. Which the 500 and 510 HP combination only have a .471 max lift cams.

GM and Mopar are well over .640 max lift cam specs, which allows there heads to flow more.




HELLO!

Re: 2018 FS showdown posted.
 

Jim, great posts; pretty much what you and I discussed at the Dutch Classic.

Re: 2018 FS showdown posted.
 

Took a lot of email, phone calls and discussions with NHRA to get the old combinations approved to run in Stock after the new lbs/hp breakdowns emerged. NHRA was very receptive on several requests(others not so much :-) )

Re: 2018 FS showdown posted.
 

NHRA has been very accepting, respectful, helpful, and in fact they even pointed out to Ford that this combination is legal for stock. They are as well a bit confused as to Ford's response.

Re: 2018 FS showdown posted.
 

I’ll admit I was getting nervous every time they(NHRA) said the guide would be in a particular date 2x and those dates came and went. I was simply just trying to get a more competitive engine combo for the shoot-out without having to build another car. Heck this one took me 4yrs to build. Lol. But the NHRA certainly has been great to deal with.

Re: 2018 FS showdown posted.
 

where do you get one of the 26 PSI superchargers .

Re: 2018 FS showdown posted.
 

How do curtain areas compare between the Ford, Mopar, and GM with each at max lift?

Re: 2018 FS showdown posted.
 

Re: 2018 FS showdown posted.
 

Off the top of my head that looks reasonable Todd, and it clearly shows that with current legal lift specs the Ford has more combined into/exh airflow potential than the GM and.the Mopar.

Throttle blade area is same/same on GM and Mopar and no surprise since they share the exact same 109mm round bore throttle body.

Ford has an oval-shaped throttle bore & I'd bet it has about 25% more area than the COPO & DP.

In 1997, the high volume production Ford 4v valvetrain was capable of running continuously at 8,000 RPM.....My bet is they got better over the past 20 years.

Not sure how the efficiency maps look for Whipple blowers.....when I asked I was told their data was on a laptop that was in a vehicle that was stolen & never recovered. Unless the 4.0L is horribly inefficient compared to the 2.9L, it has about 38% more capacity....makes sense since 4.0L with 25%-ish slower drive speed matches power output of 2.9L on same/same engine.

Just thoughts........

Re: 2018 FS showdown posted.
 

http://nhraracer.com/content/general...362&zoneid=132

Seems they issued a correction stating that the Cobra Jets with the 4.0L Whipple aren't actually permitted.

Re: 2018 FS showdown posted.
 

This eats away at me every day. NHRA was going to accept two different platforms from Ford to be able to keep the 08,10, and 12 Cobra Jets competitive in the shootout. It's tough on the people who invested hundreds of thousands of dollars in their Cobra Jet's and Ford won't help their own racers to keep them competitive. I went right to the top with this to Dave Pericak. He basically told me that Mike was in charge. Which scares the hell out of me! He personally sent emails out to the older Cobra Jet owners and said he would help those who wanted to race the shoot out class. Then when NHRA approved it his response to NHRA was that Ford is not interested! It was a stiff kick in the face... When Mike demanded the 500 and 510 HP combination be deleted from the shoot out engine combination NHRA had no choice but to delete it because Mike represents Ford Motor Company. It was on the books for just over a week and Cobra Jet owners had already spent a ten's of thousands of their hard earned money to build that combination and Mike knew this.


A couple of years ago at the PRI show I was standing with a group of Ford Racers at the Ford booth when Mike made a comment about how he extremely disliked the Cobra Jet program. After that Ford released Mike from his previous program, then Dave later put him in charge of the Cobra Jet program...?


This does not work for the guys who have been supporting the Ford name since the beginning when they purchased their 2008,2010, and 2012 Cobra Jet's.


Jim D'Amore

Re: 2018 FS showdown posted.
 

Jim,
I have no personal dealing with Mike so I can not speak on that front.

While talking with Don Fezell at his shop in PA when I was buying his stick stuff from him for my CJ he stated items that he had requested that NHRA/Ford said no to. When I was speaking with NHRA I also was requesting items for my combo and even the TVS cars to make the class more competitive amoungst the combos I was told a similar item for the 08s. My request for the TVS was weight, pulley change(Don said what he ran in testing) or blower.

I was also turned down on some service replacement parts accepted for my combo as well.(Believe someone else was behind that one) I can’t blame Ford for wanting their latest and greatest to be limited to the car owners. It keeps the guys who can afford to have 4,5,6,7 of these cars keep buying new ones. Plus it showcases what Ford currently offers. Brand loyal racers will generally remain brand loyal regardless.


As time marches on architectures become obsolete. It’s a tough pill to swallow though when you have $250k in a car that before was going to require you to build a whole new one. (With the current rules it will still cost $55-65K to switch architectures. Same would bring it down to $10-25k reusing most parts.

Re: 2018 FS showdown posted.
 

Mute point as we all basically make very close to same power in class legal form with the exception of the TVS which is the underdog in the fight. It needs more weight off and/or more blower speed.

Re: 2018 FS showdown posted.
 

Completely agree - they're all pretty close & no surprise since all of them are fed by the same compressor.

The OP has been pitching the disadvantages with CJ since the first day that something else ran quicker, so I think it's worth pointing out the advantages of CJ to balance perspective a bit.

Re: 2018 FS showdown posted.
 

Like you stated the 4v has an advantage of valve curtain area. That is an inherent advantage of multiple valve engines. It also has an advantage of valvetrain stability at lower lifts for higher RPM. It also has disadvantages as well even on the valve area as it is a small bore so the valves are shrouded a somewhat. There are inherent pro’s and con’s to every engine architecture and vehicles chassis/aero. The LS and MOPAR as advantages in some aspects and the Modular has some in others. Valve curtain area is not the “smoking gun”. The combinations as a whole are close in the real world(not identical that’s for sure) but any combo could win any round. Everyone will continue to advance their program to eliminate or work around the inherent short comings and capitalize on their strengths.

Everyone will fight to gain an advantage over the competition. The rule makers usually try to keep the parity.(unless corrupt....)

Re: 2018 FS showdown posted.
 

Now how about letting us 13/14 guys go to the current available front feed blower(that’s how they come now as IIRC they don’t offer the rear feed any longer)....service replacement.....and the GT350 heads(Boss 302R heads are no longer made).... service replacement.....


Since the rule change for the FSS those request are also almost Mute as you just build a 16/17 engine combo with more compression and more lift for a Showdown motor.

Re: 2018 FS showdown posted.
 

I do wonder why they excluded the 2012 Copo Supercharged 327 combo. Other then no one running it once the 350 came out...no one needing to point it out wanting it I guess.

Re: 2018 FS showdown posted.
 

Also agree with this....no single attribute is a smoking gun.

OP and others have been ruminating over the CID differences with no mention of valve & throttle area, rpm capability, and so forth.

Re: 2018 FS showdown posted.
 

Agreed...it’s normal for this argument to arise as it happens among the car forms all of the time.

1 cam vs 2 cam vs 4 cam. 2v vs 4vs, engine displacement and limitation, size/weight/cost of each package. Stock this vs aftermarket that. Chassis for stock suspension here with brand X for drivetrain for “cheapest” way to go fast.

And the argument will continue. Fun to watch sometimes. Always ends with John Mihovitz 4.6 usually. Lol