So, what should happen to
 

Jimmy Alund? He's entered as a 70 Nova and it's definitely a 68-69. I've heard the stories about Racers being tossed for such things BUT I don't know of anybody who has personally been tossed.
The cars are about the same but the engine combos are different.
Slap him on the wrist or toss him out?

Re: So, what should happen to
 

Seems like a stupid, inconsequential thing to be tossed over, but I don't know what the letter of the law is on these things. This is why I asked the initial question on the other thread. I knew Holroyd had raced the car as a '70 so the taillights caught my eye and I went to check the entry list.

I've heard of people changing bodywork to convert a car to another year with a more favorable combination. I'm pretty sure if he put the 402 combination in a '67 Chevy II, it would be a completely different discussion! I just don't know where the line is drawn.

Re: So, what should happen to
 

I started out with a '70 body to build as a G automatic to run with the '69 255. I e-mailed many questions to Wesley(D4) and he said it shouldn't be an issue, as there is really
only a minor difference. When I get it to the track, I may get scrutinized for it.

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What would Marty and Greg do?

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Billy,
The problem is that the car needs to be entered as a 1968 to run AA/A, as a 1970, it can't legally make the class, a 1970 is a natural B car. A few years back, they DQ'd a racer for this exact infraction, a 1970 Nova in AA/SA. Had he entered it as a 1968, he'd have been fine, but he made the error and then made qualifying passes.

I suppose an absolute purist could make the case that the tail lights and possibly the marker lights, and maybe even a grille, would be grounds for a DQ. I'm not sure I'd go there, we may not even have a tech guy in every division that knew enough to make the call. Is that sort of thing something we really want to do?

I can agree with having to claim the correct year if it determines the ability to make a class.

I can even agree that in some cases substantial trim differences are grounds for a DQ. I don't think you should race a 68 Camaro as a 67, or the reverse. I don't think that even though the grille and tail lights are the big differences between a 68 and a 69 Chevelle that you should race one as the other. I had a guy tell me that he was told you could run a 69 300 Deluxe post Chevelle with a 427/425, I don't think that's right, either.

In the end, I think we need to think long and hard about what we ask for here.

Re: So, what should happen to
 

Luke Bogacki is a very well respected racer that was tossed at Brainerd a few seasons ago for basically the same infraction. I am sure Mr Alund will not be dealt with as harshly. What would Marty and Gred do.......You are outta here !! As Alan stated , this goes beyond tail lights and grille, he is claiming the wrong year for the class.....

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Nothing.....as long as the grille is correct for the year claimed......if its not warning not to come back till its right....

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This same car was entered at Pomona 2015 (Winternationals) as an A/S car (70 model) by Clark Holroyd. What is the problem now and why wasn't it addressed much sooner?? How long has this car been run AS IS??

Re: So, what should happen to
 

He would at least be tossed for the event.

Alan, I understand the difference between the year claimed and the class. I also know the differences between the 69 and 70 engines.
I guess the biggest problem that I have with it is that the class DOES change as does the engine combo and right now he's not legally either.

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Somebody last year was DQ'd for having the wrong bumper supports on a Firebird, 72 vs 73, if I remember correctly.

Rick Thomason
GTOMayhem

Re: So, what should happen to
 

If you are one of the lucky individuals that have a car that can be converted to another year with a couple of tail lights and/or trim, then you should have to adhere to the rules specifically.

I've had to scour junkyards in Commerce, GA to get a 2bbl carb air filter hold down bolt to continue competition the next day of eliminations at The Southerns.

So I would have to concur that the correct tail lights should be used.

Back in the old days the violators would be flogged, tar & feathered, or forced to walk the plank.

Ron Ortiz
U/SA its not who you know ...........

Re: So, what should happen to
 

Eric , Grill is not the problem. If Jimmy had a heads up run and won it, with a car that can't legally run that class, then you would have a problem.
In my experience , the tech guys try to enforce the rules..as written. Sometimes they are over ruled, for political reason. I suspect that would be the result here, if someone tried to pursue this any further.

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The car is in the WRONG class, how can you race eliminations when you are in the WRONG class ??

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The Duster we run was run as a 70 AVS package for 7 years or better with a 71 grille. The at Reading one year it was brought up and I was told to change the grille before the car came back out. What changed after all those years I do not know. I changed the intake and carb to a 71 TQ rather than the grille.

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Alan and Mark are correct. As a 1970 model, the weight break is 8.65 which is a natural B car. He could move up to A, but not AA.

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A few years ago at Vegas Nationals......Danny came up and stated
one of my competitors in N/SA said I had the wrong grille for the year
Dodge truck.
I had to go on Craigslist and find several 86 dodge trucks for sale and
print the pictures of the trucks.
He then looked over the truck to see if grille or brackets had been modified
to make the grille fit...It had not been and I was allowed to run.
Every time we change engines in our Demons from 71 to 72 we change
the darn grilles now!

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The Nova thing has been going on for years. All of them pretty much look alike from 68 to 72, why start this now. As for what Marty or Greg would do is not important as they are not involved any more.

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The 68 Nova had the key switch in the dash. 69 and up have the key switch in the steering column.

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Relevance is a relative concept but facts are facts; right is right and wrong is wrong whether Marty is involved or not.

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After posting above about my grille issue I noticed a D/SA Duster at Gainsville right now is being run as a 71 with a 70 grille. Go figure.

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As previously stated, this is about entering a year of car that can not be entered in that class. Unless there is something I am missing, this is the same exact scenario that Bogaki was disqualified from in Brainerd a few years ago. So the precedence has been set. It will be interesting to see what NHRA does with it!

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I think that pretty much ended stock for Bogaki, probably did not like all the rules.

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You are correct. I didn't want to bring up names, Luke is a friend, and that whole deal is something I'm sure he'd rather just forget.

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Guess the question is how "strict" are the rules on identifying cars? to run a class. Let tail lights be wrong once then Grille, then Hardtop and 4 drs.
I had to go to junk yard to get dome light lens for my Chevelle wagon before I could run Indy. Farmer and Marty suggested this and I got one. Had to report back to show Farmer before I could make a time run.

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The taillights aren't a big issue IMO but it would be great if my natural AA car could run in B where it would fit best. I miss it by 3 HP

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...and the door lock knobs are in a different place;)

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Back in the old day, I'm sure it did not cost every bit of 1/2 of a weeks pay to enter .... Did it ? This is the kind of tid bits that run people off. Its confusing to talk about the originality aspect, and then turn around and allow crate motors in ... Looking from an outsiders view, ... the tail lights have to be the correct, original equipment , for the year,.... but the engine don't ? It keeps getting harder and harder to explain these classes to folk ...

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Ron, not to get too picky but this IS the 21St century. Mightn't you mean "it's not WHAT you know ..........."

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The first NHRA sanctioned event I went to was in 1970 in Columbus, Ohio, for a Points Meet (yeah, I am old). Marty Barrett teched my car in and he started writing things wrong, "no radio delete plate, no outside mirror, to start with, and we had not even lifted the hood. He looked at me and said, "do you want me to go on, cause you are not racing today". My point being is that everybody's car has something wrong with it currently (whether it be intentional or unintentional). If the the tech guys want to find something and nit pick it they can, but they pretty much just concentrate on the safety items and that is OK in my book. However, when it comes to engines, transmissions, drive trains, etc., the line has to be drawn, a 1970 Nova does not make AA/S. The precedent had been set in Brainerd a few years ago with oddly enough the same year car and engine combination, although an automatic vs. a manual, but basically the same situation. Me personally, I really don't like seeing anybody not getting to race, especially, someone from out of the country, but the rules are the rules and for this occurrence it is very obvious (at least to me) what needs to be done.

Gary Merrick
3522 Stock

Re: So, what should happen to
 

Years ago we were helping a newbie with a 350HP 66 Chevy II, and were cautioned about the missing SS emblem on the glove box. Guys like Bogacki and Alund are not steeped in nuances of class racing, that differentiate us from so called Bracket Racers, as many are want to do.
My first new car was a 396/375 Nova 1969, so I watch those years and know the minor differences, years ago it seemed clear that you could claim any year. However the Bogacki thing really sets a precedent in this case.

Entrants like Alund lend a certain cachet to our midst, and it will be interesting to see if he gets a pass from NHRA. Kinda feel bad, as I did for the Brainerd incident as newbies must be muttering "what the heck?"

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Jeff, I get your message loud and clear. I may have exaggerated the floggings and such, but not the content. I got into this game as a recommendation from Buster Couch and John Beidenkamp, does that give away age. I personally think that new blood is totally turned off by some of the procedures and requirements. Throttle stops are a joke.

During inspection of vehicles it was made very clear to me that certain items had to be correct year for car claimed. There was no fudging. I personally thought that it was nit picking, but it was the rules. During the Gators one year, Bill Jenkins had 28 violations on his Vega. They went over and discussed it with the higher ups and he only had to correct a couple of things, like the full belly pan that was claimed as tranny shield. It was an obvious situation of "who you knew".

As the manufacturers started to design vehicles that were similar to the previous year or sister models it became more of a change the tail lights and grille, move to a different class situation. No big deal to me, seemed a little overboard to DQ someone for a non performance item that could be corrected by the next race. But it was their rules I had to abide by, of course unless it was someone with "pull".

In Atlanta when I was racing Wesley informed me of the carb bolt that had to be corrected. He also informed me of my hood rubber trim needed to be on, but let me slide with the statement "get it fixed by the next race, now if someone complains about it cause your knocking people off here, I can't do nothing about it, your going to be DQ'd"

Fast forward to today and it still is the same situation. Only difference now is there are fewer tech people with the same detailed knowledge of what should be. More stuff slips by. How can you expect a tech guy who is maybe 35 years old to know about the correct seat that goes in Chevy (pick the model) from 1960's or 70's. Think about how many new models have come out since then, to know them all would be somewhat difficult. Now we have a plethora of engines and models to choose from.

I did not write the rules. I have to abide by what I am told, things have really not changed that much. Someone complains about your car, they have to look at it. Then tech has to judge what must be done. If it slips by tech during inspection, oh well. Safety always comes first though, you cannot circumvent that.

NHRA is the one who write the rules, they created this mess, we are just participants. Times have changed, some components are no longer available, aftermarket parts are now the standard, the Stock rules have been somewhat liberated with better equipment now, the flexibility of classes exists.

I see the pics from Ken and Chris of all the different cars and people. Notice how many are older folks, what happens to S/SS when all of us elders are gone? 32 car fields? I may be older than dirt, but I am far more open of the future than most on here. I believe that we should have all the manufacturers participating, Ford, Chevy, Chrysler, Toyota, Honda, Nissan, BMW, Mercedes, and so on. If we do not there won't be any future. If this happens, a correct tail light will have little meaning. I embrace technology.
Remember, I do not write the rules, I just have to abide by them. But it sure would be rough on tech.

And Billy, you are only half correct. I mightn't mean What I know, but I also know it is Who you know. That has not changed. 21st Century HA, if you all really knew.

Ron Ortiz
U/SA the magnetic age is approaching

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Some of my favorite Stocker DQ items over the years are my buddy Bobby Dee got busted for having his headlamps on his Buick wagon tinted green."Got to come off before ya race"said Mr Farmer.Also a 57 delivery wagons owner had to make a run to the local lumber yard, as his plywood rear floor was deemed to be too thin!!!

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Hey John, don't forget the deck lid difference too! Wink-wink. Jim

.

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Lyn, I thought maybe you were going to tell us how Bobby Dee's rubber chicken didn't pass tech.
Kinda miss the guy, he was always good for a wild story or two.

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How did the car entered in the wrong class get through tech? Who was teching Stock? Seems like they would have the class guide.

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Seems like the car owner would know what class his car LEGALLY fits ?

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Jason, It is not the job of Tech to chose what class a car goes in. Over the years I've seen that change. When I started back in the 60's you ask what class your car fit in. Now it is up to you to fill out your Tech card and fill it out correctly. To me that means if you chose the wrong class for your car (one it really doesn't fit in) it is on your back that it is illegally classed. It is your problem, not an oversight of Tech. You have filled out the Tech card incorrectly and subject to the appropriate punishment for dong that, innocent mistake or not. With all the modern technology available to a car driver and or owner choosing the correct class should be a non issue.

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Ron, Thank you for taking the time to post this thoughtful,
detailed post. I think it really sums it up perfectly.
With my typing skills would have taken me 45 minutes....LOL

Thanks again. Randy

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Jason it's kinda like the Dos Esquis guy in the commercials.....I don't always race NHRA national events but when I do .....I fill out my tech card CORRECTLY.....

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In the September 2015 LODRS race at Bristol a car classed in in Q/SA with a 15.74 break making it a natural O/SA car, 1 up or down=N.O Or P/SA