Modified Stock and MX
 

Just curious how many cars are running in these classes:

SS/ES, SS/FS, SS/GS, SS/AX, SS/BX, SS/CX, SS/DX, SS/EX, SS/VX.

Re: Modified Stock and MX
 

Recent years:

(1) car running both SS/ES and SS/FS in Div 5
(2) cars running SS/GS (one currently for sale) over the last couple years

SS/AX-SS/CX - maybe 5-6 different cars over the last couple years

(1) SS/DX a couple years ago since has been converted to a comp car.
(1) SS/EX only been one car since class was formed, NHRA made index so stiff he couldn't qualify or have a shot a class combo and having been one of the faster cars to come from the Sport Compact series he should have been capable (factory supported program)

SS-VX - maybe 5-6 different cars over the last couple years

Re: Modified Stock and MX
 

Tim's stats are about correct. Actually I have two cars that I run in /ES and /FS. I'm currently building a SS/CX chassis but it's a year or more out. There is a SS/DX car that will be out next year, possibly a second.

So what are you getting at? I'm going to speculate that you're proposing a 'Dick Butler' here and suggesting that classes be eliminated that are under populated. This is none of your business. What class do you run? Maybe we can vote on eliminating it next? Why stop there, there have probably been years where there was only one SS/P or SS/GM and probably other classes like that, let's just pick them off one at a time, no one will complain. I have been racing in SS 4 cylinder classes (not just occasionally but a full schedule of divisional and national events every year since '86) so I think I have a little bit of a track record on this matter. In case you don't recall, the 4 cylinder SS classes got downsized once already which was OK, I was involved in working with NHRA to streamline the revision but I'm not OK with it happening again. Here's my vote: Let's quite voting on eliminating classes that affect someone other than ourselves.

Jim Caughlin
SS 6019
SS/ES national record holder
SS/FS national record holder

Re: Modified Stock and MX
 

Wow, relax. I was asking because I like the classes Jim. I didn't think it would be such a sensitive question to ask. Since it's none of my business I'll leave it there.

I'm going to stop there before I use words that get me kicked off this site. Have a nice day Jim.

Re: Modified Stock and MX
 

Thank you Tim. I appreciate YOUR response.

Re: Modified Stock and MX
 

Ouch Jim,, why don't you tell him what you really think? In all fairness, all Mr. Scott asks is for approximant car counts in a few SS classes. He doesn't say what he is "getting at", offer an opinion or state an agenda,, yet he gets completely blown out of the water by your statements,,, kind of harsh, don't you think?
True, these might not be the most heavily populated SS classes, and I'm glad you participate in them ( I've seen you race many times over the years), but just because a person comes on here and asks a question, that person doesn't deserve the treatment you just afforded Mr. Scott. Unless you know something we don't know, that's my 2 cents. By the way I'm looking forward to seeing the new car when you finally bring it out,,, take care.
Danny Durham

Re: Modified Stock and MX
 

As long as we are talking about compacts I have a question. Are there any classes where you can still run a Mazda rotary? I just took a quick look through the rule book and didn't see any. I used to run one in C/MC many, many years ago and this thread go me thinking.

Re: Modified Stock and MX
 

Am I a little sensitive on this subject, oh yeah. A few years ago my expensive SS/AC car almost became an equally expensive bracket car when NHRA decided to eliminate Mod Compact so I have some experience with downsizing. Fortunately, in fairness to NHRA, we were able to resolve the issue. It seems like on a somewhat regular basis, someone gets on Class Racer (usually not even a current racer) stating that there are too many classes and proposing their ideas on eliminating classes that they don't like. Any time I see a thread starting with a request for car count in particular classes, it's usually the precursor to proposing another downsizing. If that wasn't the case here, I apologize but understand my sensitivity on the subject, I've been beat up before and not going to be happy about it happening again.

Regarding rotary motors in Mod Compact, good question, not sure about their legality in Mod Stock. At one point they had their own class and were then absorbed (sound familiar) into the piston engine classes with some sort of multiplier to determine an adjusted cubic inch size.

Jim Caughlin
SS 6019

Re: Modified Stock and MX
 

I get it that you are sensitive but you don't have to loose it every time someone asks about the class you run in.

Instead, I'd like to hear how awesome it is. Can you tell us about your new car, or is it too top secret?

Re: Modified Stock and MX
 

Jim, Since you referred to a "Dick Butler" I guess I am allowed to comment. I think you missed the NHRA result. You are still allowed to be a "bracket car" at NHRA events. You are still expensive and are just pleased to attend and race the bracket program where you are called a "class Car" because there are letters on your window.
NHRA wants your money for entry at their meets instead of Saturday night at a local event so they give you some letters you can use to gain entry to the events. All the cars in the country which run brackets do not live up to your level of quality but if NHRA needed the money and had the time I assure you a "class" letter would be arranged to get them in the gates at Points meets. Just remember when the shoe polish goes on your window you ARE in a bracket race, regardless who sanctions it.
When you race 6 or 8 cars heads up of similar lettering you are in CLASS race.

Yes if a class is tried by NHRA for a year or two and does not populate that might be important indication of lack of need for the class. That is for organization to decide. Remember Pro Stock Truck... Mod was eliminated for some reason. I do not know but I imagine to thin the number of eliminators.

For accuracy, I have been proposing a class or rule variation in a current class that would INCREASE the number of racers but allow the costs to be cut by cutting the Extreme technology demanded to stay current and competitive. Allow you to cut expenses and still be competitive in a class setting.

Re: Modified Stock and MX
 

John, the new car is a 2011 Focus which will run a 2.3 OHC Ford and a GForce 5 speed similar to what I am running now. The SS/CX index got murdered by a V6 car a couple of years ago, the index got lowered a full .5 seconds in one shot so isn't nearly as desirable as it once was, just want to go faster. Obviously an inline 4 cylinder doesn't stand much of a chance heads up with some of the killer comp elim V6 parts that are available but so be it.

Before I get too far into the Focus project, I need to complete a tube chassis for a SS/DX Honda Civic with an S2000 motor for a friend. It should be ready to race for this coming season, pretty slick little car.

Dick, be honest, on numerous occasions on Class Racer, you have proposed eliminating classes. You would prefer a world with 6 classes total if you had your choice. Sorry that I race one of those classes that you would cut, don't expect me to quietly go along with your proposals though.

Re: Modified Stock and MX
 

OP just wants to know how popular four cylinders are in our sport.

There is a guy in Oregon with an Escort and someone else around here with a W or V/SA something or other that ran against a GT/AA Cavalier after dark with no track lights. 6 second delay on the tree... And someone with a VW dragster keeps showing up for the National event around here. G/D, I think.

I have a V8...

Dale

Re: Modified Stock and MX
 

Jim, You are correct. I honestly believe the opportunity to have a class for so many variations has become a fault when it was planned as a favor and opening for individuals with a favorite project car. Result true class heads up racing has become less and less valued and highlighted.
The problems with factoring in new combinations, new technology are the only time many pay attention as they cannot compete with last years HP on their motor with new more favorable numbers.

Re: Modified Stock and MX
 

Dale, Jim Caughlin IS that guy from Oregon with the Escort, and before that, a Pinto.
Dick, considering the vast majority of spectators leave the stands after the Nitro cars finish their session, chances are that a bunch of identical SB Camaros running 9s or 10s won`t keep them glued to their seats. If they consider Pro Stockers to be "too boring", what makes you think that YOUR proposal would pack the bleachers?

Re: Modified Stock and MX
 

Name Recognition, local racers known at their home tracks or locals. Cars are something spectators could own. Spectators could believe THEY could someday be featured in Ads in Dragster or magazines as face of Holley, M+H, etc...All they have to do is get involved or have partners like the 60s when it was brothers, teams etc. known by their divisional friends...Anyone remember when the factory cars had names on them? BIG names you could identify? Who can identify any of the stockers or SS cars today to follow their success or become involved? It wouldn't work without a start and a follow thru.

Re: Modified Stock and MX
 

[QUOTE=Rory McNeil;487838]Dale, Jim Caughlin IS that guy from Oregon with the Escort, and before that, a Pinto.
//edit//QUOTE]

I know. Just trying to be coy.

https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7349/...cd557dca_b.jpg
Jim Caughlin and James Boyce
by Designer Dale, on Flickr

Re: Modified Stock and MX
 

as of 10/31/15 (this year only)
SS/ES 1 Jim Caughlin
SS/FS 1 Jim Caughlin
SS/GS 0
SS/AX 2 Gordon Gillman, Ed Newton
SS/BX 3 Frank Modugno Jr, Rich Oakes, Joe Buchanan
SS/CX 0
SS/DX 0
SS/EX 0
SS/VX 4 Jack Sacchette, Ricky Marshall, Greg Tims, Bubba Clifton

Hope this helps some.

Re: Modified Stock and MX
 

Myself I LOVE the diversity cars like Jim's bring to the sport.

Re: Modified Stock and MX
 

Thanks Nitro Joe

Re: Modified Stock and MX
 

John, I run one of the BX cars I've found it to be an affordable way to race Super Stock. Generally there alot of G.M. V6 engines and parts for sale, not so much on the Ford side luckily I've collected a few extra items. From the looks of it one could buy a used Ex Comp V6 engine fairly cheap and be really fast right from the hit. At one time think there was around 6-7 BX cars.

Re: Modified Stock and MX
 

[QUOTE=Jim Caughlin;487819]
Before I get too far into the Focus project, I need to complete a tube chassis for a SS/DX Honda Civic with an S2000 motor for a friend. It should be ready to race for this coming season, pretty slick little car.]

Is that the same motor as in Bales screamer?

Re: Modified Stock and MX
 

Same type of motor, killer design and pretty much a race motor even in stock form. A stock naturally aspirated motor makes 2 hp / cubic inch at a woping 9000 rpm so you can imagine it's potential. Josh Lee runs this motor in Comp (naturally aspirated) and you might note that he is #1 qualifier at Pomona.

Regarding 4 cylinder engines, I was intending to use the Mercury 4 cylinder (half of a 460 Ford) motor for the SS/CX car but got vetoed by NHRA. It is legal for Comp Altered only, not legal for Comp Econo classes and/or SS. I'm sticking with my 2.3 OHC motors, good motor but I think the Merc might have been better.

Jim Caughlin

Re: Modified Stock and MX
 

would the Tempo/Topaz 2.3L pushrod engine be legal with a cut down Australian head from the 250 AU six?
thanks, Roland

Re: Modified Stock and MX
 

Probably would be legal but kind of a stretch. The block & head have to have an OEM part number and the engine type had to be available in a production automobile but you can cut and hack to your hearts content from there. There have been other instances of parts from outside of North America being used as long as it is OEM. I would sure be checking on this with NHRA before I went too far though.

Re: Modified Stock and MX
 

Jim, I do not know you but must respect your information. Obviously you have investigated the motors of your area of interest. Good Luck to you. Thanks for your comments.

Re: Modified Stock and MX
 

Jim,

I purchased the head from AK Miller many years ago. He cut one cylinder off each end of the head and welded a plate to each end. His customer then lost interest in the project so AK shelved it and when I was buying something else from him he told me about it so I purchased it because the price was cheap. It has a Ford casting number on it. They look similar to a Cleveland head. The bore spacing and head bolt pattern are the same as the Tempo 2.3L block.

Roland

Re: Modified Stock and MX
 

Roland,

The fine point in the rule book is SS/MX states 'automobile engine' whereas the Comp Altered rules says ' automobile type engine'. That's why the Merc motor isn't legal as it is actually a marine motor and wasn't ever installed in a car. My opinion is that what you are proposing would be legal as the 2.3 pushrod shortblock is a production auto motor, the fact that the head wasn't orig intended for that motor doesn't seem to me to be an issue, it does have a Ford part number in spite of the extent of the mods.

The other motor that I don't think is legal for SS is the Fontana 4 cylinder motor with a Yates Cleveland type head. As Ford didn't have a viable pushrod shortblock, they had a Chevy II block recast by Fontana with a Ford head bolt pattern, Ford logo and a Ford part number. Instant Ford motor! Once again, legal for Comp Altered, not legal for SS.

Jim Caughlin

Re: Modified Stock and MX
 

Jim, With all the investigation and research on all the small motors what do you believe is your driving force? Research? Building one of the cars to prove it works?
If your car is "fast" in your opinion when it is done, how will it be judged? Do you just believe it is fast? based on previous motors you built? Without many competitors of your skill in your class, what is the standard against which you compare?
Obviously you are very well informed and dedicated. My own stimulus was to be the class winner over multiple experienced racers with the same or similar combinations.