What's wrong with Stock?
 

I'm a little bit hesitant to get in to this because it's been beat to death since 2008 when the first Cobrajets were announced. My good friend Bruce Noland was probably the first person to warn us about the potential of these new purpose built factory race cars. I remember him saying that he talked with some of the Ford racing guys at the sema show and that they told him those cars should run 9.20's. Fast forward 6 years and the fastest stockers are running 8.50's @ 150mph. My personal opinion is that cars running this fast have no business in Stock.

I think the new cars are good for NHRA racing just not good for stock eliminator. Between rules that are made only for the new cars and BOGUS horsepower ratings,they have made those of us who run old cars who have to run against the new cars in the same class, largely uncompetitive. Given who runs NHRA and their lack of knowledge and not caring we probably should not be surprised. None of the top management has any understanding of the roots and tradition of stock, plus they are very short sighted and have no vision for the future. If they were forward looking they would showcase these new cars with the pros, not put them in with stock to beat up on the real stockers at 8:00 A.M.

To do this they should make 5 or 6 FX classes with their own indexes and AHFS and run them just like comp. Maybe a 32 car field at most nationals and 64 at Indy. No dialing in, no breakout. My feeling is that this would give the manufacturers more visibility and give the racers an opportunity for some serious sponsorship dollars. Just imagine Charley Downing getting chased down by David Barton. A little 281 c.i. Versus the mighty 426 Hemi. The manufacturers and NHRA could really promote this and make it a big part of the SHOW!

If people want to run the newer cars in stock they should run cars and motors that are made and sold to the public. You could give these newer cars a reduction in shipping weight so they don't have to be so heavy and maybe some hp reductions because these motors already have a lot of things the older racers use.

This doesn't have to be an either or proposition. It could be a win win for everyone. I will say one other thing, as long as the traditional stockers continue to support what's going on and attending National events, nothing is probably going to change. 2/3 of the cars that entered Indy were older than 2008. Take those entry fees as well as crew fees away, you have a substantial source of revenue decline for NHRA.

An example of what's really wrong is that Scott Burton left Indy before eliminations because he had a heads up run with a new car that had him covered by 4 or 5 tenths. Any of you that know Scott know that he has a very fast traditional stocker that he has worked his *** off over the years to make fast. This is WRONG!

Re: What's wrong with Stock?
 

YOU are 100% correct--Don't enter or BUY a factory race car-the good old days and older cars of INDY are gone-:(

Re: What's wrong with Stock?
 

To bad Farmer & Marty are gone, it would be a whole different story.

Hammer

Re: What's wrong with Stock?
 

I didn't realize that the number 1 qualifier was one of those under rated factory hot rods. Lol.
Chuck

Re: What's wrong with Stock?
 

Chuck ?? Chuck WHO ??

Factory Hot Rods should be seperated from Dealer bought STOCK cars.........

Re: What's wrong with Stock?
 

Greg is right, BUT You have to be patient.... Word I have from the "ivory Tower of Glendora" is you are looking at the "NEW PRO STOCK" In the next 2 years Pro stock in its current formt will be replaced by the "Super Cars" NHRA needs to shake it up. Current Pro stock is TOO expensive , has no real fan base, AND Spectators dont identify with the cars. SOOO If you havent noticed, ALOT of pro stock teams already have COPOS,CJ's and Drag Packs and are testing them. Warren Johnson in recent interview was asked why he was not attending events replied "We are working on a new LS based engine program for what is in the future and securing sponsorship for that program"
Simple, NHRA Is doing a long term replacement strategy so they do not get another pro stock truck debacle.
I will continue to run my car and wait and see...
Imagine, Dan Fletcher a PRO STOCK driver! I Cant wait!

Re: What's wrong with Stock?
 

It's definitely alittle disappointing watching some very good cars not get in this show, I have a fairly fast car and was #104 time will only tell how far NHRA plays the game.

Re: What's wrong with Stock?
 

Since 2008 and the crying never stops..... some people just love to complain.

Re: What's wrong with Stock?
 

Yup, Bruce was right! Wow! Did I just say that? Wow.

Pro Stock MUST and WILL change, just watch! Jim


.

Re: What's wrong with Stock?
 

Says the guy who probably didn't have his competitive combo with years of blood,sweat and tears wiped out with the stroke of a check for a crate engine car!

My hat is off to the racers who took their traditional S/SS cars to Indy to do battle!

Re: What's wrong with Stock?
 

Comprehension problem? nhra and the oem's are committing fraud and you appear to be one of the beneficiaries. And no the conversation about this fraud will never stop until something is done to correct it. There are legal folks looking at this problem and it will probably not result in a law suit but it will impact other legal issues that nhra is now experiencing.

At Indy, I was faced with the same dilemma as Scott except my situation was a little more complicated. I thought about not running against a "new" car that had me covered by two tenths but then the first alternate was another A/SA car and I could not be certain that he wouldn't get the new car. It would have been better if the new car had to use shoe polish. I decided to give him a try in an effort to push him one second under the index. That's all I did. This car, a Challenger, started life in nhra at 305 horsepower and is currently rated at 421. And it is still underrated. After 50 years in business, nhra did not miss this gross horsepower miscalculation.

So, for those of you who are enjoying this corrupt process, I hope you really enjoy racing your ringer car$.

Re: What's wrong with Stock?
 

Hey Comp guy, we bitched day & night about mufflers until something changed. Those in power count on silence from the impacted
Stock class was a massacre for the older cars and the time love & $ invested is not right and easily corrected with FX classes
There can be no pride in winning in an obviously mis-classed car

Re: What's wrong with Stock?
 

If this is true.....I think that it is an extremely good idea.

Re: What's wrong with Stock?
 

I might be in favor of a 10 year rule....factory stockers run for 10 years, in their own elimination.....then move to stock elimination. The logic is that the new cars will have had plenty of time to beat up their up rating. At the same time the new super stock cars into the same elimination...as factory modified.....for ten years.

Re: What's wrong with Stock?
 

Are the the guy that raced in E/SA & F/SA with the same combo that now runs B, C & D??????????????

Re: What's wrong with Stock?
 

That's what I thought too Bob. Seems like he's been trying to sell that thing for 2or 3 years!

Re: What's wrong with Stock?
 

I hate myself for not being able to hold back any longer. Boring 3-day weekend, I guess, forces me to do something.

How about cars over 40 years old run in a nostalgia stock category and not stock eliminator?

You are watching the future of drag racing - with current cars produced by the factories. Cars whose body styles you can purchase in a showroom today (not everybody who buys a car wants a race car).

You guys think blood, sweat and effort happens on a garage floor. It can happen in a job where you earn a living and spend your money as you see fit. I mortgaged my house and spent my retirement to get in the game and stop complaining. I do not have a lot of years left.

I am sure we have spent more time -- on the engine and chassis dyno, runs down the drag strip tuning + changing things and money to go to more than 40 races in the last four years -- more than any of the keyboard jockeys on this website - message me to compare notes. For those of you who think we have not worked on our combination - get your head out of where ever it is and try seeing the light of day.

Ok guys this should keep us busy for the rest of the weekend. Light it up boys.

BTW - I heard this a long time ago --

"The difference between a puppy and a drag racer is the puppy learns to quit whining".


Ron Durham
Proud V10 drag Pak owner

Re: What's wrong with Stock?
 

I don't have a gun in the Stock fight but we ran a car in SS for about a year as a SS/BS. When the "factory" SS cars started to show up we decided to not participate in SS.--SO if the factory comes up with a double turbo full out hi compression hi lift camshaft you get the idea "slightly detuned" balls out motor with a hokey HP rating and accepted by NHRA tech as an EXTREMELY limited run factory produced vehicle it's legal---how do you compete with this --YOU CANT unless ya got one yourself--- I think part of the problem here is that you have multiple cubic inch engines in multiple year cars all with the latest hi tech engineering available and supersceded parts weekly with ONE intention ----TO WIN all within the current rules allowed by the association--if they want to run "Stock" they can they are not doing anything illegal but its sorta like a SS car running a Stocker--- the only way to stop this is to either have their own eliminator class much like SS/AH or to factor them correctly--it just aint fair---look what Larry Hill did--- he made them(NHRA tech) look stupid--- he took a V6 pick up truck DIME ROCKET with a blueprinted motor and totally annihilated the index--- so much for the AFHS ---hows that NHRA hp factoring working for you now--- another one shot wonder just blew your AFHS theory out of the water---my 2 cents FED

Re: What's wrong with Stock?
 

Ron , my friend.. So do you recommend everyone should have to do what you did, in order to be competitive in the upper Stock classes, if that's what it takes?

Re: What's wrong with Stock?
 

Mark, I was not going to go there, but I figured someone would.

Honestly, I dearly love the sport. I'm working a day job for a major corporation now, plus running my own business. I worked most every day off this year.

But I will be damned if I will mortgage my house, or spend all of my savings to race.

I suppose if some people wish to out spend the rest of us, and drive us out, and NHRA is willing to be a party to it, then so be it.

Re: What's wrong with Stock?
 

Ron,

I recognize and applauded your race program...

You and your program fit into Stock Eliminator because you have to race with the same set of rules that are for new, 10, 20, 30 or 40 year old race cars.

If your program is go fast, you take your hit and move on.

Larry Hill went very fast in a 28 year old race car (truck) and he will get a 29 horsepower gift for his efforts. That rule is the same for MOST racers in Stock Eliminator.

How about putting 75 horsepower on the Shootout cars, like they earned in qualifying

New cars belong in Stock Eliminator but under the same set of rules for ALL cars that race in Stock Eliminator.

There is a way to fix this problem with The Factory Shootout Cars and that would be to bring back to INDY the way that qualifying used to be:

Class Winners and the rest of the field filled with the fastest qualifiers with an AHFS in place..

Let them battle heads up to win class for the privilege to race in the Eliminator.

If they race in Stock, they need to use Stock Rules...

Bob

Re: What's wrong with Stock?
 

For the record I run a 1980's car. It is nice to see the automakers getting back involved in stock racing. However some of these combos are not ones that you can walk into the dealership and purchase. They are specific built race cars. I have no issue with people purchasing new cars and working on a new combo, after all we do need new cars coming into the class. However if NHRA allows the factory built cars to run in stock and take up qualifying spots then they should never be allowed to be AHFS exempt. So tell me why is it fair to let the new cars run all out with no penalty for HP. If we all run in STOCK then we should ALL follow the SAME RULES!

Re: What's wrong with Stock?
 

I'm like a lot of people my age or older that have raced for a lot of years. I'm just about done. If it wasn't for my son Andrew I would be done. I sold my car about a month ago, and I will mainly be Andrew's crew chief from now on. Because I have his car in Louisville and he's in Michigan I will probably race his car a few times a year, mainly at combos and one or two opens. I hope this lasts for a few more years for Andrew because he dearly loves it. I wasn't trying to start an argument with this thread but to point out how NHRA and the factories could have integrated the new cars into the sport without hurting people who have supported them for 30 or 40 years. To favor one group over another by an organization that's supposed to provide a level playing field is what really bothers me.

Re: What's wrong with Stock?
 

Yes

Re: What's wrong with Stock?
 

So it's buy a "new" car or quit then. That seems to be the message from NHRA as well. Nice

Re: What's wrong with Stock?
 

Life is full of tough decisions - BTW racing is not one of them -- but it was easy for me to make the switch - taking the leap came naturally to me - I am sure you folks with money (you do not want spend) are making the correct decision for your selves.

Fault me for my decision - that makes sense

I did not out spend anyone - you all have more money than me - I am not trying to drive any one out - I am saying run nostalgia stock with a 40 year old car.

Re: What's wrong with Stock?
 

I suppose that's okay, if you want to be competitive by outspending your competition and having the rules changed to suit you.

If you can be happy with that, and proud of it, well, good for you.

Re: What's wrong with Stock?
 

No - NHRA needs a nostalgia stock eliminator - then the new cars can race themselves.

Re: What's wrong with Stock?
 

I have more money than you?

Yeah, I bet.

I work on cars for a living, with my hands.

I have ten years left on my mortgage.

I drive an 11 year old truck.

And I still work in my own shop, on other people's cars, 3-4 nights a week, and at least half the weekend.

Yeah, I'm sure we all have more money than you.

Re: What's wrong with Stock?
 

And what sanctioning body would that be with? NHRA is wrong on this as it stands and you can't argue that.

Re: What's wrong with Stock?
 

No, NHRA needs to put factory experimental cars that were never built to drive on the street in their own class. Factory Experimental.

Stock was NEVER about cars that were never built to be legal to drive on the streets. That's why the Super Stock Hemi cars, and several other factory race cars, were not legal for Stock Eliminator. Even the most radical L-88 and ZL-1 cars had all street legal equipment, a VIN, and could be registered and insured with a regular title as they rolled off the show room floor. None of the new factory race cars can claim that, not one of them.

You want Stock Eliminator to fit your car, and the rest of the racers to find a new class.

Re: What's wrong with Stock?
 

Ron, Ron, Ron

I guess you missed my post.......

Bob

PS:
.....and yes my car is 40 years old which is 30 years younger me.

Re: What's wrong with Stock?
 

We do not have enough money to stay fast anymore - we have been passed by in four short years by the blower cars

When we bought ours - we knew we could not stay fast without a lot of work.

You guys on here still have not acknowledge the new cars take work to stay fast - I do not need recognition or support.- from anyone on here.

You guys (on here) hope time stands still for another 40 years - it will not.

In the new world cars do not have carburetors or distributors - there is not a single current car produced today which does not have fuel injection and a factory computer.

A novel concept might be to race cars which are available today. That is what the big three think and NHRA does not disagree.

Its about selling cars - not having a way to race nostalgia cars forever and ever and ever.

OK - I am done for today.

Re: What's wrong with Stock?
 

I talked at length with Scott Burton while he was traveling home empty handed from Indy. When I asked why he didn't show for first round (hoping for a miracle) the reply In his words was " my car isn't broke, the NHRA rules are". He indicated he wouldn't waste his time returning to Indy until the problem is fixed.

This BS has gone on long enough and it is the same reason I don't get wound up about racing like I used to. An Indy class win would certainly be cherished but how likely is that with a carburetor in an upper class car?

Rather than being served up on an NHRA platter as a first round sacrifice, he tied his car down and headed for the mountains of home. Few people have been as supportive and loyal to NHRA as the Burton's and Scott is not alone in this issue. Hats off to Scott for taking a stand at INDY, in front of the NHRA, and not just on the internet like most of us.

Tracy Pedigo
C/SA

Re: What's wrong with Stock?
 

Tracy, you know the sad thing is that probably no one from NHRA even noticed.

Re: What's wrong with Stock?
 

Well, you asked for it. Several of us, 6 years ago, warned everyone that the new expensive cars would have their combinations made obsolete every 2-3 years at best. All any factory has to do is draw up a new engine combination on paper and get NHRA to approve it with a nice new soft factor. They don't have to build the engines, they don't even have to sell new race cars with the engines in them. Which is exactly why they should be Factory Experimental cars and not Stock Eliminator cars. Because the factories are experimenting.

It has absolutely nothing to do with fuel injection, distributorless ignition, and computers. Those have been in Stock Eliminator for 20 years. No one cares about that. That is not what makes the new cars perform.

What they DO care about is over 0.600" lift roller cams, 1000+ CFM throttle bodies, tunnel ram intakes, and what amounts to CNC ported heads (they CNC port a head, pull a mold, and cast the new head). None of which have ever been in Stock Eliminator before, and very little of which, if any, is seen on production street cars. Again, these are Factory Experimental cars. These are near Super Stock engines running in Stock Eliminator, and many of them starting out factored at or below what the older cars are factored at, with the older car having half the horsepower potential.

It has everything to do with the factory race cars not even being close to the street legal new cars for sale.

You want to make this about selling new production cars? Fine. Race new production street cars. Let's see how it works. I'm all for it. By all means, bring on the new production street cars.

The fact is, we're racing cars and combinations that were sold and driven on the street, against cars and combinations that would never, and could never, be sold for street use. I don't have a problem racing an old 427 powered 69 Camaro against a 2014 Camaro with a Stock Eliminator prepared engine based on the engine that comes in it when you drive it off the showroom floor and buy license plates to drive on the street. What I do have a problem with is racing an old 427 powered 69 Camaro against a new 2014 Camaro with a built for racing engine, that is almost as radical as my 396/375 Super Stock engine, that cannot be sold in a new car to drive on the street. Especially when it is factored almost the same as our old Camaro.

Now, not only do the factory race cars get soft factors and get to run in Stock Eliminator, they now get their own set of rules, and an AHFS waiver, so they can qualify as far under the index as they want with no penalty, while the older cars get none of the above.

Re: What's wrong with Stock?
 

Alan,
15 to 1 compression in a 2014 engine
LOL

Re: What's wrong with Stock?
 

Ron, Ron, Ron

How far under could a 2014 Camaro be with an almost 50 year old L-88 rated at 225 Horsepower?????

It's not FI, Blowers, Overhead Cams, 4 Valves per cylinder it's the rating that the Factory puts on these engines with the blessing of NHRA

Some people get it. Some people don't.........

Being fast is a relative thing....
Is a B/SA car that runs 10.90 fast or is it an M/SA car that runs 11.65 ???
I think you know the correct answer...

Bob

Re: What's wrong with Stock?
 

Andy,s Dad it's not about old and new it's about all of us running under the same rules. I ran one of the first F.I. cars in our area and took some B.S. about it so I know how that goes , but I was running by the same rules.

Re: What's wrong with Stock?
 

I agree that the new cars should be put in either a fs of fx class but only run in ss catagory. they could be set like the modified class super stocks,afx,bfx,etc.and not be in any other class. this is because they do not qualify for regular classes in stock or superstock. this would be the fairest way to handle this problem and would boost the superstock numbers.