HP Adjustments on NHRA.com
 

Read 'em and weep! The first FWD only hp adjustment in GT!!! No surprise there!

Re: HP Adjustments on NHRA.com
 

Good move NHRA.

Re: HP Adjustments on NHRA.com
 

If FWD GT cars have an advantage over other GT cars, it doesn't make sense to me that only certain FWD conversion cars (ones that happen to hit the AHFS) incur any changes. If there's an inherent advantage, wouldn't it make more sense to have an across-the-board weight adjustment on all FWD GT combinations? While one car may run more *efficiently* than another, an engine doesn't magically produce more actual horsepower when its sitting in one engine bay vs another. (with the exception of fresh-air systems)

It just seems like everything thing they do makes the system more cumbersome, not less so.

One unintended consequence is that they just made it even less likely that my underfactored combination will get HP.

Re: HP Adjustments on NHRA.com
 

That adjustment is for any FWD GT car that runs that engine combo.

Re: HP Adjustments on NHRA.com
 

This was done because there are differences in the FWD and RWD platforms for GT cars. It has been in the rules for a long time just not enforced by the AHFS. Plus there are NO FWD GT engine combinations. They run a combo that was in a RWD car hence needing the separate HP evaluation.

Re: HP Adjustments on NHRA.com
 

Yall know I am a simple man. So let me put it is language (Cajun) that I might understand. You mean dem round back Drumfish looking cars dat used to have a sideways motor that now got a big V8 might not have the lead over a back drive GT fishin car? Need some interpelation here.

Re: HP Adjustments on NHRA.com
 

Beard. I know you're an intelligent guy. So why is this AHFS change so hard for you to understand? In Super Stock (not GT), you have platforms! A Camaro, is different from a Corvette, which is different from a Chevelle, etc. If one gets hp, it does NOT go to the other! This is now how it works in GT! So use the combination that got hp as an example. If somebody wants to run that combo, or already runs that combo in a FWD conversion car, they now carry 294 hp, or, extra weight, compared to 287 hp in a RWD GT car, which did not trigger the review. So if both cars run GT/EA, just an example, the RWD car would weigh 3040 minimum (287 hp at 10 lb weight break + 170 lbs for driver). The FWD GT car would have to weigh 3110 (294 hp, etc.). Hence, the FWD GT car would carry more weight!

So in Chrysler terms, if a FWD GT car running the 360/275 combo get hp, it would not be given to the RWD Volare with that same combo.

For the last 10+ years, FWD GT cars have been bombing combinations with hp, while the RWD GT cars running those same combos have not, but suffered the effects by adding the same weight and hp to those combinations. Finally, NHRA has realized what all of us effected by this have known all along!

Re: HP Adjustments on NHRA.com
 

What Michael is saying is make a set penalty for any FWD conversion. However, I am not sure how you would come up with the proper adjustment. You would have to have two good cars (one fwd and one rwd) set up equally with same engine combo, and you would have to test each car with the same drivetrain. Rather then having a Fwd conversion hp for every engine combo, you would have say a 10hp penalty for any FWD conversion. It is obvious that something needed to be done because the FWD cars are obviously faster, but the big question is how much faster are they?

Re: HP Adjustments on NHRA.com
 

427 COPO's take another hit! One more HP on the 12 & 13's and they are natural AA cars.

Re: HP Adjustments on NHRA.com
 

Whats up with the 70 GTX 6pak, it's listed twice, at 393 and 422 HP.

Re: HP Adjustments on NHRA.com
 

It looks like 393 is the factor with the factory head, 422 is the factor with the replacement Edelbrock head.

Re: HP Adjustments on NHRA.com
 

Thanks. That's what I was getting at, although I was thinking more along the lines of a weight penalty, whether it be static or a percentage, instead of continuing to gunk up the works with different HP factors.

Yes, I'm familiar with the "platforms" factoring. Great, so they've turned it into a lower form of Comp. "Combo got hit in one platform, so I'll just put it in a different platform car." Greeeeaat. :rolleyes: Not too many people can afford to do that.

Re: HP Adjustments on NHRA.com
 

Couldnt agree more. Well said.

Re: HP Adjustments on NHRA.com
 

The 2013 CJ 302 is now a natural CC car. Good lord.

Re: HP Adjustments on NHRA.com
 

fortunate for those who have a 2014.....:p

Re: HP Adjustments on NHRA.com
 

Is it just me seeing something for the first time or is there an unusually long list of requests in this report?

Re: HP Adjustments on NHRA.com
 

So NHRA has done it again.

First, Michael is absolutely correct in that an engine does not know what chassis
it's in. The HP factors for straight SS and GT have never made any sense to me, or any competent engine builder for that matter.

Now you want to say it matters if it's a RWD or FWD conversion???

Having been involved in the sport from the inset of GT, (and anyone that was) will remember that in the beginning, the GT cars were considerably slower than the straight SS cars.
Where did the difference come from??
WORK!!!!
These cars were owned and raced by people that worked on their stuff and made it fast.

I suggest the same thing is today with the conversion cars.

Back In the old modified days (yea, I'm old), when you got outrun, you went home and worked on your stuff. No crying on the internet, no emails, and certainly no AHFS.

I suggest the rest go work on their s##t and low and behold, be just as fast.

FJ

Re: HP Adjustments on NHRA.com
 

Well stated F.J.! Very few work hard to make their stuff fast anymore. Bracket racers.

Re: HP Adjustments on NHRA.com
 

for three years I have asked the 1970 - 402/375 in a camaro be refactored and each time has been not changed. The combo is not correct with current hp thoughts what should be the next step?

Re: HP Adjustments on NHRA.com
 

I see the new cars in a different way, everyone of the new cars introduced to NHRA competition should have 100 HP added to the stock HP rating and let them race the HP off. This way the racers will have to make the cars run what they can run and not get a gift of qualifying at the top of the fields. Every time I go to a race, I see the new cars with hardly having to take the valve covers off to run 1 second under. These cars in the most part don't belong in Stock anyway, they don't have Vin numbers to be legal on the street and they don't have motors that are in regular production with the vehicles. Nothing will change, just the car counts going down because the older cars can't compete with the new technology. In 1970, the Z/28 350 which has been re rated now, was rated at 400 hp in 1970, solid lifter, carburetor and distributor. How does a 1998 and newer 350 which has roller cam, fuel injection and crank trigger end up with less HP the the 1970 engine?
Just my point of view.

Casey Miles
248H "F" NHRA Stock

Re: HP Adjustments on NHRA.com
 

FJ, no matter how hard you work, a 70' 383 is not going to run as well in a 64 Belvedere as it will in a 2004 Stratus. Many of the current GT factors are based on the potential of an engine combo in a very small late model car, and most are FWD.

Re: HP Adjustments on NHRA.com
 

Bernie, with the new request form on the nhra website they had a lengthy list last year as well.

Re: HP Adjustments on NHRA.com
 

Where this rule bugs me the most is in Stock that a HP in a firebird/camaro, circa '93 - '98 LT1 does not apply to a corvette platform, these are obvious sports cars yet NHRA separates 'em, WHY ????
We're not talking about station wagons to sedans here. OOOHHHHHHHHHHHHH !!~! "Shelby"

Thx. Cooter, I reckoned it was longer than usual. Seems there a are more crybabies out there than I thought, My bad

Re: HP Adjustments on NHRA.com
 

Sorry FJ, but I am not buying your premise. Also Michael is incorrect on his statement. Race car building is a science and FWD cars have many advantages over the RWD cars in the same class in many ways.

The type and style of vehicle used has an effect on the performance of the car in the class, especially with the allowances given in the construction of FWD cars in both Super Stock GT and modified classes.

For starters, a strut suspension FWD will be lighter and have an advantage over a RWD car in the same class that must maintain the OEM upper and lower control arms, shock absorbers and cross member.

Let's also add engine placement and aerodynamics and a multitude of other factors.

Sorry, but I am not drinking the Kool Aid!

Re: HP Adjustments on NHRA.com
 

I completely agree. If you look at the construction of a FWD conversion vs a RWD, the front end of a FWD has a definite advantage . I say to make it fair and get rid of HP factors for FWD vs RWD they should give the RWD the same rules. Let them run tubular K-members, tubular control arms and struts so then it will be apples to apples. Just my 2 pesos

Re: HP Adjustments on NHRA.com
 

SSDiv6 = You are absolutely correct!

We are consistently beaten by FWD cars in our class.

We purchased an engine out of one of our friend and
competitors car and immediately went .015 to .020 slower than he
ran.......... although our car was better sorted and had a superior
transmission.

Re: HP Adjustments on NHRA.com
 

Why does every HP adjustment for the last two years or so include reductions for the big block Mopars? These cars were obviously fast at one point so what's the problem now? Is it because the Mopar racers know how to work the system better?

Re: HP Adjustments on NHRA.com
 

I agree with Micheal on the main issue. Micro factoring is creating part of the problem. FJ also is correct. Many aggressive racers move to the newer more efficient combinations. Effect the FWD cars get these people. Some by finances tend to keep the car they started with and try to upgrade to compete. Wont Happen. The loop holes in GT rules for construction add to the problem. As for front end wt, motor position, etc that is not there on these cars. Check a corvette motor position compared to a FWD. The Vette is the car and not really used as often as it could due to cost and build restrictions.
Suggestion:1) Add 50 lb for ALL FWD combinations. (If not enough refactor)
Problem is not all racers created with Equal skills or budgets. You have a problem factoring money invested and time dedicated to being #1 in your class.
Many more problems caused by poor factoring of the motors themselves.
ANSWER: Limit the combinations available to race, Limit the chassis being used or create a Spec type combination for those who are tired of the factoring or lack of it.

Re: HP Adjustments on NHRA.com
 

Dick, I am a little bit confused with your statement.

First you say that Michael and FJ are correct, however, at the same time, you infer that a FWD conversion car is an advantage and they should be given a 50lbs penalty.

Michael's stated the engine is not a factor between a FWD and a RWD car.
FJ stated that a FWD car is not a factor and stated it is do to lazy racers that don't want to work on their cars.

When you state the engine location on the Corvette, there is more than engine placement when building a FWD conversion car within the current rules, especially when many of them relocate the firewall.

But at the end, like many of your previous posts, you keep pushing for a Spec Car class like you have done for the past years.

Re: HP Adjustments on NHRA.com
 

Uh, not supposed to move the firewall, right?

Re: HP Adjustments on NHRA.com
 

Ed, the Thesaurus shows the synonym for "Supposed" as follows: hypothetical, theoretical, imaginary, invented, believed, assumed, alleged, understood, rumored, said, meant , intended, expected, thought,...

On the other hand, the Antonym for "Supposed" is "Actual" :)

The current rule is open for creativity and interpretation...

FIREWALL
The lower portion of the OEM firewall may be replaced with steel
of equal or greater thickness than OEM. Chevy Cavaliers, Pontiac
Grand Ams and Sunfires, and Ford Escorts may have firewall
replaced or relocated, provided the measurement from the rear of
the radiator core support to the firewall is 34 inches maximum. For
Chevy Cobalt the radiator core support to the firewall is 33 inches
maximum. For all other vehicles, firewall must be in the original
location. A complete one-piece steel firewall that resembles OEM
must be installed, welded in place, and sealed from the driver
compartment. The firewall must extend to and attach to the floor.
The firewall and mid-plate must be two separate pieces. All motor
plates, mid-plates, etc. must be separate from and may not be
attached to the firewall.

Re: HP Adjustments on NHRA.com
 

Right or wrong, this platform for AHFS has been implemented in GT and as long as it took NHRA to approve it, will take them twice as long to change it, so get use to it. I my humble opinion I believe that different inclass WB should reflect the vehicle configuration(FWD vs RWD) however I wouldn't even know how to calculate that. HP is HP and yes the FWD cars have an advantage, how much, that depends on the vehicle in question; however I believe the bigger problem is the AHFS system itself and not the drivers, engine combos, or vehicle configurations. If it were up to me, and the car count would allow for it, I would split the class into a "Nostalgia SS Class" (compiled of traditional SS and RWD GT) and "Modified SS" (compiled of FWD GT, Modified SS and FX SS). All that being said I'm just happy to have a National sanctioning body platform to race on and I will support the NHRA because as flawed as they can be from time to time, there is still no better feeling in the world than winning a Wally. C u all @ the Big Go! Let the HP wars begin! LOL

Re: HP Adjustments on NHRA.com
 

It's not. HP is HP (again, unless there's an airflow difference). FWD conversion cars *utilize* the given HP more efficiently due to both aerodynamics and chassis. I do believe they have an advantage. It's just not a function of the engine.

Re: HP Adjustments on NHRA.com
 

Michael, FJ, Ed, Dick, Kevin: answer me this question??? Of the two GT type cars, FWD and RWD, which car has piled up the most Horsepower on engine combinations? Never mind, I'll answer it for you. The FWD conversion cars! Nobody knows this more than me, with my RWD 87 Camaro, that used to run an LT1 when it was at the factory hp of 275 in SS and GT! Now, because of a FWD conversion car, and a FWD conversion car ONLY, it is at 295 in GT! So I get rid of that combo and go to the L98, only to have it increased in HP from 275 to 287, because of a FWD conversion car!!!

No advantage huh???

And Kevin. I see your combo got 5 off for GT! Don't understand how that happened, because all that hp was piled up in a FWD car! I guess now he can go a second under again!

Re: HP Adjustments on NHRA.com
 

Michael, I was referring to FJ's interpretation of your statement.

Yes, the dynamics of the FWD versus a RWD are a big differentiators as regards to performance, especially as regards to acceleration and ground effects throughout the run.

Re: HP Adjustments on NHRA.com
 

I've specifically stated that they have an advantage. I don't know how I could possibly be any clearer. I just asked why they're hitting HP instead of adjusting weight on the FWD conversions as a whole, since the advantage is not in the engine, but the car itself.

Re: HP Adjustments on NHRA.com
 

Bryan, FYI only RWD GT cars will be able to use the 5HP back off the 350/300, which I think is great for the 80’s & 90's F body racers.

I do not disagree with your facts, and I do understand that most of the HP incurred onto combinations have come from FWD GT cars; however I believe the issue still remains with the AHFS system. I wish I knew what equation could be instilled in order to make it more precise; however for the time being I guess this NHRA quick fix will have to suffice.

Bryan in my humble opinion GT is the biggest reason that the SS class is such a s*#tshow to begin with. GT should have never existed and if it was to be conceived, it should have only happened to accommodate FWD cars, due to the lack of manufactured RWD V8 cars in the 2000’s. GT was created to get the newer style cars on the track in the 80’s by NHRA and the racers; however the racers input to NHRA was that the combinations available with the cars in question where sub par performance wise or too hard($$$) to make competitive. Today those 350 & 305 combinations are at the top of the qualifying sheet in SS and GT, and I like seeing that because it reinforces my theory that there should have never been GT, but because racers didn't want to give up there old 350, 327 and 283 combos, NHRA let them have GT. Now we are stuck with an abortion of a class where GT becomes increasingly more advantageous year after year due to body style, configuration, chassis materials, etc...An 80’s F body has a disadvantage to a 2000’s F body just like a 90’s cavalier has a disadvantage to a 2000’s cobalt. The GT class is doomed to be continuously criticized. We run 2 SS cars and if we want to run GT we have to incur aerodynamic disadvantages and HP factors we had little to no input into. My advice, run SS and leave GT for those who can't! Just my 2 cents. Apologizing in advance! Lol

Re: HP Adjustments on NHRA.com
 

I like your thinking Kevin, but I fear alot of others won't lol.........

Re: HP Adjustments on NHRA.com
 

Fred

Haven't really looked at the Classification guide lately, put at one time, NHRA use to base the Mopar engine HP on Wheelbase and body design.

Every time I asked for the same consideration, for the 390 Ford in Mustang (108 in w/b) vs Fairlane (116 in w/b) it was ignored.

Mopar people obviously do a better job of writing letters and sending emails.

Hey, that's the way it works.

RJ

Re: HP Adjustments on NHRA.com
 

It took about 35 years for the 383 to be defactored enough to be worth running., It doesn't happen overnight, that's for sure.