Fresh rebuild, oil everywhere
 

Fired up my fresh 327 on Saturday to break in the cam, and after a minute or two at 2k rpm it started belching smoke. Ran it for 5 minutes till it got to 195 or so and shut it off. Let it cool, fired it again for another 5 minutes and it smoked bad the whole time. Plugs were all oily and even the bottom of the carb was dripping oil, so I pulled the intake thinking it wasn't sealed up. Tried thicker gaskets, but couldn't get the bolts started so I put it back together with new .060 gaskets and sealer. This is the same block, intake, and heads I ran last year with no problems, by the way. Fired it again, same thing.
Spoke to the experienced (and record-setting) racer / builder that's been guiding me with this build, and he's convinced that it's the valve seals. I will admit - I reused the rubber PC seals that were on the heads when I bought the engine because, hey, they didn't leak before!
So he recommended Teflon, as they were the only ones that don't leak on his engines with the high vacuum produced by the latest ring technology. I ordered them Sunday from Jeg's and got them today. I swear, these things were made for a freakin' XR80 Honda they're so tight. I ruined 5 before I quit, and I'm not even convinced that that much oil could get sucked through the guides. With the first Midwest Classracers event coming up this weekend, I need to get this fixed in a hurry...
So:
1. I don't think it could be a screwed up ring, or I'd have blowby...right? I was running it with no PCVs or breathers in the valve covers, just open holes, and plugged the vacuum port on the carb. Didn't see anything coming out of the holes.
2. Are there better valve seals than these pieces of *&^*%$# ?
You know, that can be installed by mere mortals?
3. Any other ideas I'm missing?
This is my first stocker engine, but not my first small block. It's kicked my *** the whole way, and now I can see why so many people just write a check!
Here's a smoke-filled video:
https://flic.kr/p/nPm1mC

Re: Fresh rebuild, oil everywhere
 

With the exhaust huffing smoke like that, you almost certainly have a ring seal problem. Doesn't look like valve stem seals at all. Oil on the plugs and the bottom of the carburetor is a bad sign as well, the guides would have to be so loose that the valves wouldn't seal on the seats. You need to run a compression test and a leak down test.

Re: Fresh rebuild, oil everywhere
 

Second ring in upside-down?

Jerry

Re: Fresh rebuild, oil everywhere
 

Total Seal gapless top ring???

Re: Fresh rebuild, oil everywhere
 

Tim, yes those are the ones. I filed to .028 as per Keith's instructions.

Re: Fresh rebuild, oil everywhere
 

You made need to shim the top groove with that set up from Keith.

Re: Fresh rebuild, oil everywhere
 

X2.Bill C.

Re: Fresh rebuild, oil everywhere
 

Paul

I had a problem like that and it turned out to be the wrong size oil ring expander and rail set. They felt really loose when I put the motor together, and said to myself, if it seals up it will fly. Well, it was just as you described, pulled the motor down and replaced with a bigger expander and rail set and the car flew. If you are using Total Seal look at the label on the oil ring package and see what size is printed on it. They had sent a4.040 expander package while the top and second rings were for a finished bore size of 4.100. Believe I wound up with a 4.060 oil package set .

I always use a digital fish scale and pull a piston (with the oil ring package installed) through the cylinders to check for how much drag. I shoot for around 8 to 10 lbs. Its a little tricky, put try and keep it moving smoothly in the cylinder.

Good Luck

We learn a whole lot more from our mistakes than we do from our successes.

Hey, how long is your camper footprint? Look like it fits perfect without overhang.

RJ

Re: Fresh rebuild, oil everywhere
 

I had some real bad problems with the gapless rings. After one run absolutely no compression. The engine would not start. Checked With leak down and 90% in all cylinders. Every ring was seized into the ring land both top and 2nd. I spoke to Total Seal and Patterson and no one could give me a good reason for the problem. I followed their instructions to the letter and used a premium break in oil. Definitely a ring problem.

Re: Fresh rebuild, oil everywhere
 

Paul,

I'm sure there is smart engine builders out there that can make those gapless top rings work in a stocker set up, I tried and could not but I only do my own junk so take it for what its worth.... If it was me, I would pull the engine apart, scrub the cylinders with dawn dishsoap and brush them, remove the gapless top ring and throw them as far as you can, then find them and burry them so you don't try them again. Install some standard 5/64 rings and have fun.

They do seal awesome on compression, not sure what happens on the down stroke that makes them drink oil. I used two quarts in 10 dyno pulls and gave up. I heard of guys using a PCV set up to assist but with my tune port setup, it pulled oil out of the valve covers rapidly.

Good luck!

Tim

Re: Fresh rebuild, oil everywhere
 

The plot thickens...
Today I installed new metal-clad Viton valve seals. Fired it up, and no smoke! As a side note, I originally had 6 qts of 30 wt. Valvoline along with a pint of Comp Cams break-in lube in the pan. Today I put in 5 qts of the Brad Penn since the cam was broken in.
Anyway, all was well until about 2 minutes in when the oil pressure gauge dropped to around 20 lbs. I immediately shut it off. Waited a few minutes and cranked it back up...had around 60 psi for a minute or so, then it dropped again. I'm thinking all these issues are related to filling the valve covers with oil. For some reason, there's either too much getting up there or not enough coming back down. Either way, it ain't good! I don't get it...same block and heads from last year. Different oil pump (Schumann low-volume), different head gaskets (FelPro MLS), pushrods, lifters, and roller rockers.
Is there a plug that could've gotten left out? Could the lifters be allowing too much oil up top?
By the way, I noticed the other day that the pressure on startup was 72 psi but after a couple minutes it started to "flutter" down to 55 or so. I have the 60-65 psi spring in the Schumann pump.

Re: Fresh rebuild, oil everywhere
 

Paul, did you change the filter with the fresh oil? -Al

Re: Fresh rebuild, oil everywhere
 

Yes, I'm using the Wix Racing filters.

Re: Fresh rebuild, oil everywhere
 

Did you use an oil restrictor kit?

Re: Fresh rebuild, oil everywhere
 

No...I'm not sure what that even is.

And RJ - the camper is 8'-6", and that's why I wanted it...so it didn't hang out of the bed and require the use of an extended hitch. It's a 2001 Lance Lite 835.

Re: Fresh rebuild, oil everywhere
 

After it warms up and the pressure drops, raise the rpms to 4000 and see if the gauge comes up to the 60-65 lb range and is steady. If it does I believe you are ok. The low pressure pump is just that ....low pressure. Just make sure its steady at the higher rpm range (4000).

If it fluctuates at 4000 rpms add a half qt of oil and check it again.

Thanks for the info on the camper, that is what I need.

RJ

Re: Fresh rebuild, oil everywhere
 

Still haven't figured this out. The oil pressure issue went away when I switched back to a plain ol' M55 pump, but the smoke won't stop.
So far, I've done these:
Had .100 milled off the ends of the intake, because it was squeezing the rtv out and ending up metal to metal. Now it sits like it should.
Switched out the Viton valve seals for Teflon.
Still smokin'.
Today I pulled the pistons, and there were no rings upside down or anything stupid. Stuck #6 back in upside down with just the oil rings on it and pulled it with a fish scale...had 10-11 lbs of drag. Now I'm out of options, so if anybody has more ideas, lay 'em on me.

https://farm6.staticflickr.com/5156/...d651a222_z.jpg

Re: Fresh rebuild, oil everywhere
 

I would say you are too light on the oil ring. I usually try for 15 to 18 with a fish scale. That light has always lead to the same issue as you have now. Tweak the expanders to get a bit more ring pressure.

Re: Fresh rebuild, oil everywhere
 

A lot of oil in those cylinders, and what looks like scuffing on the cylinder walls, especially #2.

Can't be sure about the cylinder wall finish.

I run about 8# tangential tension on the oil rings, with a Speed Pro oil ring package, and Napier cut second rings. I do not run zero gap rings, but I do run Total Seal Advantage rings. The finish is absoultely critical, as is the bore being round.

Re: Fresh rebuild, oil everywhere
 

Alan's right. #2 looks as if it has 200 runs on it! I'd pull it an run the numbers again. Way too much scuffing! Jim

.

Re: Fresh rebuild, oil everywhere
 

I tried gapless twice and they sucked both times. First time I tried them, it oiled sobad on the dyno it would not run. The oil rings they sent me were too small of a diameter. The second time we got it to run, but it was 15 hp down on power from a dykes with a napier back cut second.

If it was me, I would flush the gapless and put a flat ring on top. I would also double check the oil rings. Make sure the rings are on the correct side of the spacer also.

I still think a dykes is good with a stick. Our old 327 275 ran 10.74 in E this year. They aren't toobad and we never have issues with oil. You can turn the shortblockby grabbing the end of the crank snout too.

Re: Fresh rebuild, oil everywhere
 

I don't doubt you Jim, and others say the same - yet just as many say they love the gapless top. Also, I don't see how the top ring could affect the oil control to this extent.
I agree that the bores don't look too hot. This wasn't a fresh bore, just a hone job, but the guy that honed it builds quite a few gapless engines so I figure he knows what he's doing.
So it appears that the consensus here is rings? No other things to look for?

Re: Fresh rebuild, oil everywhere
 

I have built several engines with gapless rings with no problems. Any time I see problems like he discribes, it turns out to be oil ring related.

Re: Fresh rebuild, oil everywhere
 

A gapless top ring is okay, although I rarely use them. I refuse to touch anything with a gapless second.

A top ring will cause oiling, if it leaks bad enough to create pressure in the crankcase and cause extreme windage.

If the bores are truly round, and have the proper finish, you can run the Total Seal Advantage package with a steel top ring, a cast Napier second, the spacers in the ring grooves (on top of the rings, not on the bottom) and as little as 8 pounds of oil ring tension. The bores have to be near perfect, you have to use the right assembly oil, and you need to break it in on the dyno.

I use Speed Pro SS-50U oil rings, and make my own oil ring package (Keith Jones at Total Seal taught me). However, for customers, especially if I do not know their machinist, I use around 12 pounds of tension.

Re: Fresh rebuild, oil everywhere
 

If the bores are truly round, and have the proper finish, you can run the Total Seal Advantage package with a steel top ring, a cast Napier second, the spacers in the ring grooves (on top of the rings, not on the bottom) and as little as 8 pounds of oil ring tension. The bores have to be near perfect, you have to use the right assembly oil, and you need to break it in on the dyno.

Alan, in your experience is there a right was vs wrong way to break in one of these motors, with this kind of light ring package, on the dyno?

Re: Fresh rebuild, oil everywhere
 

Those cylinders looks pretty shiny, and the scuffing looks like the rings are grabbing or something. You could try to run a sealed crankcase with a dual PCV setup, and clean all the oil out of the top of the pistons. If the finish is to fine, that spells trouble.

Re: Fresh rebuild, oil everywhere
 

Re: Fresh rebuild, oil everywhere
 

I used to use them back in the '80s in circle track stuff. All impressed with near zero leak down numbers. No dyno testing to prove them. My stuff was as fast as anybodies, but found later it wasn't the rings. LOL everybody else around here was using them too. A monkey-see-monkey-do kind of deal, I guess. I always used their whole ring pkg, with no oiling problems.

Now I use very narrow Total Seal top rings, their Napier 2nd rings, and my own oil ring combo. I'm now down to 4lbs oil rings. (Love those Napier seconds!) One hand on the dampener to turn my short block. (Less than 5 ft lbs) Still dry up top. Cylinders MUST be straight with the right finish to get away with this! Personally, I would not try this without a diamond hone. Patterson machines my block and sells me many of my parts. I could never make the same power with their gapless rings.

Re: Fresh rebuild, oil everywhere
 

Your picture looks exactly like my engine looked like, twice, trying them. I can tell you it wans't the cylinders, the second or the oil rings in my application because I changed the top ring and it ran perfect.

We never really figured out why or where the oil was coming from. I stand behind my previous post, get rid of them.

Re: Fresh rebuild, oil everywhere
 

In my opinion if cylinders are scuffed rehone them,call Greg @ Tri City with your bore measurement and depth of ring lands and get a set of his rings.
Mike Taylor 3601

Re: Fresh rebuild, oil everywhere
 

You have to run more oil ring with them. I agree, get rid of them. No power there.

Re: Fresh rebuild, oil everywhere
 

Why is there so much oil in the lifter valley?? Plugged (on purpose) drainback in block?

Are the heads really filling up with oil? Are the head oil returns blocked by the gasket?

Weird at a low rpm that the oil can't get back to pan.

I also noticed there's only oil in the two middle cylinders. Could this be a dual plane intake problem? You did say all plugs were wet though.

Re: Fresh rebuild, oil everywhere
 

[QUOTE=Jody Lang;434745]Why is there so much oil in the lifter valley?? Plugged (on purpose) drainback in block?

Are the heads really filling up with oil? Are the head oil returns blocked by the gasket?

Weird at a low rpm that the oil can't get back to pan

Was looking at picture this morning,is there not a drain hole in right rear corner of block?
that is a lot of oil still standing back there, I would say it would get fairly deep in there running and would have to be over the hump of main oil galley,if does'nt have return hole there I would put one,I know some of the older blocks don't have holes at front above timing chain,I would put them if it does'nt have,make them low enough oil can't stand.
I would have good drain holes at all four corners and plug ones between lifters,that will cut down on windage.this is'nt oiling cylinders but could contribute to oil pressure fluctuations you had.

You don't possibly have windage tray that is filling up with oil and rotating assm. is running in pool of oil and slinging at cylinders.

Mike Taylor 3601

Re: Fresh rebuild, oil everywhere
 

Paul,
On very back of block in lifter valley is a hole that from the factory had a oil separator (baffle) which pushes into that hole (approx ! 1/4 hole and then a 7/16 head bolt holding it in place. Then that hole ends up coming out behind block on outside, right behind dist. Is that hole plugged on the outside of your block or do you have vacum on it to try and get rid of windage pressure inside motor? If you have vac on it, without the oil separator (baffle) in place it will suck oil like crazy.

Re: Fresh rebuild, oil everywhere
 

from what I can see in the pictures is the for a engine that only has only an hour of run time ,the oil is really black and that is showing combustion in the crank case and not letting the oil drain back because the pressure has to go some where , cant explain the standing oil in the valley other than a drain hole is covered ,, I would suspect the rings is problem one of 2 gmonde

Re: Fresh rebuild, oil everywhere
 

Guys, the drain hole on that side is plugged to keep oil off the crank. (That was done long before I got the block.) The oil pressure issue went away when I changed the pump, I'm going to put the Schumann on an oil pump "dyno" when I get time. The oil looks black in the pics because it's green - Brad Penn.
Going to order a different top ring set this week and cross my fingers.

Re: Fresh rebuild, oil everywhere
 

Unplug that hole!

Re: Fresh rebuild, oil everywhere
 

Paul did you get the oiling problem fixed.?

Re: Fresh rebuild, oil everywhere
 

Looks like some may have put the oil rings upside down. For the best results a plate hone is a must if your looking to achieve good ring seal.

GM blocks seem pretty frail and the cylinders will distort once the head is bolted on.

The cylinder show a lot of scuffing either debris or to tight of a fit or both.

Re: Fresh rebuild, oil everywhere
 

I've been holding off posting on this until I had it fixed, so....
If anyone out there is considering gapless rings, DON'T DO IT!!!
On the advice of Mike Taylor, I got in touch with Gregg Luneack at Tri City Competition to talk about rings. It seems this is a very common issue with the Total Seal Gapless pieces of she-ite. Gregg hooked me up with a set of his Race Rings...he mailed them Saturday, I had them Monday morning. I got the thing back together and fired it up tonight, and whaddya know! No smoke!
I can't believe Total Seal continues to sell this garbage. I have not contacted them yet, but I will tomorrow. $350 down the toilet, not to mention countless hours of work and stress, plus missing a month of racing...I'm pissed.
And Ed, I opened up the hole like you said! Thanks to everyone for the info. We'll find out this weekend how much faster it is than last year.