Ya gotta be kidding...
 

The latest NHRA tech bulletin drew my attention to a Ford Cobra Jet engine that I wasn't familiar with, the "429 455/455". Since I have run a "real" 429SCJ I was interested in what a 2014 version was like. So I took a look at the engine specs and damn near fell out of my chair. OK, I am true blue FoMoCo but this engine is insane with a 455 HP rating. 429 CID, 14.9:1 CR(!!!!), 0.650 lift roller cam, 1800 CFM throttle body and NASCAR "D3" heads in a high deck Windsor small block package. It is essentially a stroked version of a NASCAR engine from a couple of years ago with the advantage of a roller cam, EFI and a monster throttle body. NASCAR engines are making 850 to 900+ HP with 70 fewer cubic inches and a flat tappet cam!

It wouldn't be cheap to build one, but with a 7.0 weight break a 2014 Mustang could probably run 2 seconds under in either BB/S(A) or SS/C(A) without breaking a sweat. 900+ HP in a 3200 lb car, yikes! Stop the madness :eek: !

I wonder if FoMoCo is going to do a 460 Windsor next year. They sure do like bringing back classic displacements.

Re: Ya gotta be kidding...
 

I dunno! I bleed Ford blue, and that looks AWESOME to me!

Re: Ya gotta be kidding...
 

Bill where you been??? The 2010 426 hemi challenger and the 2014 427/430hp COPO are basically the same as far as cr., engine size, camshaft specs, etc.!!

We have been talking to Kuntz about the Combo and you are right, it won't be inexpensive to build. If you are going to run FS/B with a Ford, its the Combo to run.

Should be a bad boy once you get it sorted out.

Now If I can just get those ping pong balls to line up right!!!

RJ

Re: Ya gotta be kidding...
 

I need that 1800 cfm throttle body. I gotta get that for the Mopar. We only got 1600.

Re: Ya gotta be kidding...
 

What I find more amazing than the "new 429" in the new Mustang is that Chrysler/Fiat found an engine combination that they never knew they put in a "limited production, not for street use" car five years after they built them. Now THAT has to be a "limited production"!

Re: Ya gotta be kidding...
 

Yeah, I gotta admit I haven't been keeping up with all the latest factory stuff. I have been looking at the Ford specs occasionally but haven't ever looked at the stuff from the dark side. The last Ford engine I considered was the 2010 352, but since my latest race engine efforts have left me broken and broke, I have pretty much quit racing altogether. I can't seem to stay away from Class Racer website though.

Re: Ya gotta be kidding...
 

Billy, not only are these special cars out there, they are going to allow us to move the rear wheels forward to be the same as the Copo and SC Mustang. Now if we can just get the Injectors Tubes sticking out the hood.............

Re: Ya gotta be kidding...
 

1800cfm is one big Throttle body!:eek:

Best I can find on Throttle body flow per size...

65mm Throttle Body 745 CFM - 3.125" OD
70mm Throttle Body 830 CFM - 3.125" OD
75mm Throttle Body 915 CFM - 3.125" OD
80mm Throttle Body 965 CFM - 3.500" OD
90mm Throttle Body 1170 CFM - 3.750" OD
95mm Throttle Body 1450 CFM - 4.250" OD
105mm Throttle Body 1520 CFM - 4.250" OD



The 2012 and 2013 COPO's have 102mm and the 2014 COPO has a 90mm Throttle body.(427 motors)

Re: Ya gotta be kidding...
 

The Mopar's use a 4 hole 1 3/4 in on the DP's which is the same size as 750 CFM 4150 series carb, but it is rated @ 1000 cfm. The 426 Hemi uses a 2" which is the same as a 4500 series base and is rated @ 1600 cfm. Course we are only flowing air. The Copo 427 single blade has a slightly larger area than the 2" 4 bore that we use.

Re: Ya gotta be kidding...
 

Jeff, 2% rule?

Re: Ya gotta be kidding...
 

The 429 is our answer to the 426 Hemi, and the 427 Chevy. The cam lift is line on line with the Hemi combo.

The throttle body is our off-the-shelf unit. Big but front entry as opposed to the scoop of the Hemi. I consider it a wash. Likewise the head is 12 year old NASCAR tech but it's off-the-shelf as well. However the 429 is at .650" lift while the NASCAR engines are over 1". Huge difference! It becomes an apples and oranges argument trying to compare the engines.

These engines are designed specifically for Factory Showdown. It should be very fun and exciting, and not affect any older combos as the natural class is BB. The Dodge guys are dominating FS/B right now and we want to mix it up a little. The point is to promote Stock racing and help Factory Showdown grow, having all 3 makes in is a big part of that.

Hopefully Chevy ups their ante with a .650" lift SOLID lifter cam and maybe a CNC port on their intake like the Dodge has and we should be VERY level in performance.

I think we've got the best teams running Ford's (although I do like the Barton and Teuton teams) and I'm excited for Indy. I hope the Chevy guys get a combo that gives them the specs to be right inline with the Ford and Mopar so we can stop the paperwork exercise, get to work and settle this on the track.

Re: Ya gotta be kidding...
 

Also, your 4 1 3/4" throttle blades are not encumbered by venturis and boosters getting "in the way". Thus the higher flow ratings.

Re: Ya gotta be kidding...
 

You tell those guys like it is Jesse. It is like the phrase you always tell me that you are tired of taking a knife to a gunfight.

Re: Ya gotta be kidding...
 

Am I the only guy who wishes these cars would be "Pro Stock" instead of the current class?

Re: Ya gotta be kidding...
 

Call it NASCAR Pro Stock

Re: Ya gotta be kidding...
 

No you aren't. There are many more folks who despise these cars in Stock and Super Stock than there are who want them in. The OEM guys chime in only when there is massaging that needs to be done. History will provide a very dark view of their actions. But what do they care?

Re: Ya gotta be kidding...
 

Bruce, I think what he means is instead of tube chassis, jellybean, 500 inch Pro Stockers...the factory S/SS cars should be Pro Stock. And I agree...

Re: Ya gotta be kidding...
 

"instead of the current class" - I can't speak for Joe but it appears that he thinks these cars would be better suited in Pro Stock than running them in Stock. And I agree with that.

Re: Ya gotta be kidding...
 

x 2

Re: Ya gotta be kidding...
 

Hey guys, I'm new to the forum and new to stock/super stock racing as well. I'm trying to catch up on what has been going on with these new factory stock cars which is how I landed here. Can anybody point me in the right direction as to where I can find more info on the following:

1) I saw an article somewhere briefly mentioning that the current rules made the V10 Mopar drag packs uncompetitve against the supercharged Fords and Chevys, but I can't seem find it again or any other info relating to this.

2) I read something else similar to what has been mentioned in this thread that all of these new factory drag cars are taking advantage of the current rules and really shouldn't be running in the current classes.

Maybe I should just make a new thread, but any pointers on where to go for this info would be appreciated - thanks!

Re: Ya gotta be kidding...
 

Re: Ya gotta be kidding...
 

Me too....we're thinking the same thing, just in a different way.

Re: Ya gotta be kidding...
 

wish that was my 429

Re: Ya gotta be kidding...
 

In addition to the Ford 429, Dodge added the 6.1 street engine for the 2009-10 Challengers. Derated from 425hp to 340, E/F/G car.

Re: Ya gotta be kidding...
 

Although Jesse does not mention us - with the V10 now in FS/B (NA class) we will be competitive although the 3500 lbs will not allow us to dominate like those engines less than 450 CI who only have to weigh 3200 lbs

IMHO

Ron

Re: Ya gotta be kidding...
 

Personally, I like the Factory Shootout cars and the ensuing competition. What they (the factories) are doing is similar to what was happening during the Super Stock wars of the mid-1960s and nostalgia claims those were the glory days. Whether or not they should "be in" Pro Stock is a different issue, but the presence of these new technology cars is definitely fueling serious evaluation of the current Pro Stock class formula, which has been in need of a revamping for 15 years. I do not like the non-production paper cars that end up in traditional classes and I would like the factories to release the specs for their production cars for "normal" classification. Then if NHRA would realistically introduce those cars with reasonable power factors a platform would be established for continuing to feed Stock class racing in the future.

Re: Ya gotta be kidding...
 

Dwight, that is what the aforementioned 6.1 and about 90 days ago the 5.7 are about. Showroom stock, with dead stock specs, much different than the Drag Pak motors. Stock bodies and stock specs. I have one of each of the three motors 5.7, 6.1, and 6.4 and the progression on each with respect to performance is very noticable. I also have all the engineers final drawings for the foundry, and the items that change, and as I was told, to pass emissions and make hp is so obvious. You can see where the street versions are going. You can trace much of the things in these new Gen III Hemi motors directly to racing. What they have done is gotten 'casting horsepower' for no charge. They have to be casted and machined anyway, and it don't cost a dime more to make these upgrades. We are getting a dead stock 6.1 ready for the dyno just to see what it will do. Factory ratings are done with a complete muffler system, water pump running, and alternator working on pump gas. We will change to race fuel, headers, an engine management system, and any other stuff pertaining to our dyno. We ran a hone thru it just to clean it up. It is an assembly line motor. Should be interesting. I would like to build a dead stock one, but I prefer a water car or theft recovery as opposed to a wreck, so I'm sure somewhere down here, there will be a flood.

Re: Ya gotta be kidding...
 

Jeff check your pm's

Re: Ya gotta be kidding...
 

I think it's a frickin awesome idea making use of the old D3 heads to compete with the Chevy's and the Mopar's. Off the shelf parts, pretty much straight forward build with lots of D3 manifolds to choose from unless you want to go sheet metal. The Jesel rocker components are still available, some in bulk from various Nascar parts outlet sources; and the cranks, rods, and pistons are no biggy. Put it in front of a 3rd pedal set up and have a blast

Re: Ya gotta be kidding...
 

It appears you are not familiar with Stock/Super Stock engine rules and specs.
No, you cannot just go build an Ebay engine.
There is a specification sheet for cylinder head volumes, stroke and rod lengths.
Also specific part numbers for the cylinder heads, intake crankshaft and connecting rods..

Re: Ya gotta be kidding...
 

Originally Posted by Jeff Teuton
I prefer a water car or theft recovery as opposed to a wreck, so I'm sure somewhere down here, there will be a flood.


Would that be Levee Cutta? :o

I'm just surprised about the inch of lift in non-roller Nascar motors.

Re: Ya gotta be kidding...
 

Yeah, that is a problem for the D3 heads in that FoMoCo only sold the heads in an unfinished form and left it to the engine builder to complete the ports and combustion chamber. The NASCAR guys built a huge variety of heads designed for particular tracks. Short track heads were completely different than fast unrestricted track heads and restrictor plate heads were different than all the others. So going to Yates or whoever and buying a set of D3 heads won't get you to where you need to be for a drag race engine. It would be really expensive to develop an optimal D3 head for drag racing since it is really new territory. A NASCAR head developed for a track like Martinsville would probably be a good starting point.

Re: Ya gotta be kidding...
 

I need a junk, wore out, blown up, damaged D3 head (1) so I can do some R&D on the ports and combustion chamber.

Thanks in advance

RJ

Re: Ya gotta be kidding...
 

Call Roush-Yates and see what they have.

704-662-6982

Bill

Re: Ya gotta be kidding...
 

RJ, check your PM's.

Re: Ya gotta be kidding...
 

I never mentioned anything about using an E-Bay engine in S/SS; you did. And yes I am very familiar with what is involved in putting together a winning Stock/Super Stock engine program. I cut my teeth working for Captain Cobra Jet in the 80's as well as working along side his son Chris. I also have friends who currently race in Stock, and Super Stock. So again yes, I know what's involved in putting together a competitive program.

And yes I agree just about everything is a spec piece from the block, bore size, stroke, rod length journal, and weight, piston dome, valve size, rocker ratio, port volumes, and camshaft lift. That's the beauty of this deal, everything for the most part is available off the shelf and readily available. No more chasing down old head castings. I never said used Ebay heads would work in this application. This was an assumption on your part. I was referring to some off the shops who still have bare castings laying around and available, as well as Jesel rocker bars, arms, and shafts . All Ford Racing D3 castings are cast with the same part number M-6049-D3. Everyone knows In Stock Eliminator the intake manifold will be what ever piece(s) and part numbers Jesse submits. In SS it's what ever you choose to use.

We do have Chris and Jesse to thank for bringing the 352" Sbf and the 428" Sbf to stock and super stock eliminators. And now they have given Ford Racers another bad *** killer bullet. I stand by my above post that this will be a good thing for Ford Racing in the sportsman classes. If I wasn't already chest deep in another class car build, I would be all over this.

Re: Ya gotta be kidding...
 

They're not, they are at around .900" lift, rocker ratios are over 2.4 in some cases.

Re: Ya gotta be kidding...
 

A Nascar cam looks like a Mickey Mantle bat that someone worked over with a wood lathe. Big ole bubba. I think they still use mushrooms so no failure on the roller.

Re: Ya gotta be kidding...
 

Any more info on this engine? specifically, port volumes, approved rods and crank?

I have some info but not enough.

Thanks

Re: Ya gotta be kidding...
 

D3 engine in stock is the biggest joke coming out of Ford and NHRA. The rules originally intended for stock do not apply anymore.

I feel bad for all the guys that have worked for years on there combos to have to deal with the Made up combos coming from OEM.