Econo Modified
 

Let's move here, and let the vettes have their's back. It will only be serious, if the sanctioning bodies take it seriously. The autos are involved because we would need the car counts. I think with the tiny wt. break we give them, they are, in my opinion, at a disadvantage, and will soon change to a stick. But, then again, I don't know the potential of a new auto. And, also, if this ever comes about, I would not rush the start date. If they would give it a full year to sink in before a start date, with say, a 3 year locked in plan, it would boom. No one will even buy a set of heads on a whim. We have a guy coming in 2 weeks to look at our cobalt turn key, and it may leave with him. I personally will not complete my deuce for competition unless this takes off. I will retire. BUT, if it takes off, I'm all in. I still will let out any of two spec motors, a 289, and or a 322, for ANy competent SS guy, for a demo. I just won't finish a car for it, unless it's a go.

Re: Econo Modified
 

Thanks for the new thread. We needed to accentuate Econo so more see the goal. First they need to give an index. Maybe see which current Mod SS class one would fit as a place to go if someone got involved.

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I think I can help with an index from just shooting from the hip. I'd say at 9 lbs. per cube, you will see some 9.40's to 9.50's. So say, 10 flat. I may be wrong, but at 10.5 lbs. we went some 9.90's. But that was with a modern car, and a star vac pump.

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Automatic 11lb SS cars with all the restrictions go high nines. My wife could make a 9lb SM car go 10 flat. LOL

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Ya but Ed, you may be smarter then I. I ran a 10.5 lb. spec car for 2 years, and went 6.29 in the 1\8th at 109.67. At 10 lbs. with a 291 iron head bowtie, that we ran in SS/CS at 10.5 lbs. we went 6.06 at 114.96 at the same track.That's all I have to go on. Most, not all, but most SS\BS cars run 9.0's, to 8.80's. I think the heads, with a 3,000 # min. at 9#, will be in the 9.40's to start. Just a guess. It ain't hard to reduce the index. It only takes an ink pen. Big difference berween a spec head, and a 15 degree chevy. Also, 10 flat is just the index. If they're like the other super stockers, and run 1.5 under, they'll be running 8.50's.

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this has been tried so many times before and came up goose eggs, but have fun posting all winter as it will never happen, trust me.

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Joe, you're right. It's been tried to death. But NEVER with a cylinder head totally equal for all manufactures. But, I agree they will never try it. It makes way too much sense. Who would even dare to think a racing organization would ever want to actually race? If we're lucky, the roundy- rounders will have to start dialing in their lap times to make it fair. Crowd should love it. But it's still fun to discuss. Either way, I'm either retired, or I''l have a nice street car if nothing comes of it.

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I'm with Joe, it ain't really gonna happen. Would be fun, but so would be taking a shower with Pam Anderson. LOL

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I agree with most of what you post Ed, (except for the Pamela Anderson thing, I think I could come up with a better fantasy) that being said, what pray tell, is so hard to understand about a racing body, that truly does not race, other then the pros, and comp, and why they will never truly race. With the computer tech we have today to control illegal mods to heads, why is it so far fetched to think they would not want to try it? I agree they won't try it, but why?

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Hey, if you were old you would like Pam Anderson! LOL

Economics is the reason.

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I am old.

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Randy, I'll put my 1 and 1/2 cents in here, from experience.

Get a few cars built and ask for a class in Super stock, and you may get it...They did it for the VWs recently.
If you are wanting a new eliminator category, forget it, until you see maybe 30-40 cars in class runoffs. Don't bother asking until then.
You might be able to some LODRS tracks to give you a Saturday night showcase , as long as you take the full hit at the gate...

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lol!!

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Billy Nees came up with a workable solution that would level the playing field, keep costs in check, and be easily policed over a decade ago.

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Mark, I'll agree that we have one chance in a million to get this done. That's not my problem with this whole drag racing deal. I just have to wonder why, with the direction NHRA, and IHRA are going, they don't try to bring just a little excitement to local tracks, and try something like this. Everyone's right. Drag racing ain't what it used to be. Drag racing used to be a locally exciting sport. NO ONE CARES ANYMORE TO GO WATCH IT!. THERE IS A SIMPLE REASON! NO ONE UNDERSTANDS IT! I guess, growing up, racing at Bethany, and watching Eddyville, I just thought that was what it was all about. Done my first bracket race at Lee County, Keokuk Iowa, in 78, and never really cared for it. It's not what we grew up with, and don't understand why, with today's tech, and computer abilities, why a limited head deal would be hard to police at all. In our 2 year spec deal we ran, the SLOWEST cars were within .2 of the fastest cars. And the top ten were within .06 from 10 to number 1. How hard can it be? You could catch someone so easily modifying heads past what is allowed easily. Let the computer make the decision.

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Randy, I ran my 67 camaro in ss/cs from 1991 thru about 1999. The reason I chose that class was because of the limit on cyl. heads. With iron heads no need to invest on the latest high dollar alum. head every couple years. You are on target about a spec head, that is the key. I recently started racing again with this same car with a stick in ss/i. If this class was a reality I would have built a motor under these rules instead of my 327. Like was said earlier need to adapt a class into super stock. Run SS at nhra events and if enough interest have some heads up events somewhere. Also I sold some motor parts to a guy in missouri years ago that was going to run a class like this. Maybe he ran with you guys. If I had my way it would be for older stick cars only.

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Jim Hawkins! I'll be damned. I ran against your stuff at Bethany Mo. and was a little worried about it. The only thing that saved me, was his car was not as equipped as mine. Trust me, I was running a little SS\CS when you were, and you were quicker. Not by much, but enough. You and Ricky Ray, and Randall Beningfield were the hitters then. I ran Randy at Lousiville, and I think I ran a 6.39 to his 6.36 in class, and I met Ricky at U.S. 36 raceway, and got my doors removed to the tune of a 6.28, to a 6.40. I watched you guys closely, and you, and Ray were always .2 to .25 ahead of me. My only consolation was I ran some big speed numbers, to the tune of 111.42 MPH in 93 in the 1\8th to
Randy's 106 MPH, 114 MPH in 2007 at Eddyville Ia. Best ET in 1\4 was a 9.76, but we ran 142.78 MPH. We were running phase 2 bowties by John Haskell. There again, we kinda slowed down when the vortec bowties came out, and Manns blasted the record. Pissed me off because I had $7,000 in each set. Not saying it wasn't the same for all, but just when you think you're closing in, wham, new head allowed. That's what I wish they would fix. You were one of the guys I admired.

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Thanks Randy this old car did run well back then but all the credit belongs to Patterson's. They treated me real good especially since I was a low buck guy compared to most of their customers. I ran phase 1 heads done by Brandywine and Patterson did the rest. Still have some of those heads. Ricky Ray and myself had some good times running each other. I could usually run right with him. Another guy who ran fast was Monty Jones with his beretta. We had a good Indy class final were I ran a 9.77 to his 9.74 I think and both had double 0 lights. That car was real trick then while i had a 67 camaro, ladder bars, powerglide and a heavy dana rear. Pretty good numbers in ss/cs 20 years ago!

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Very good numbers Jim. I'm glad, and a little surprised you gave these thoughts a little consideration. But anyone who wants to actually race has got to see what I'm trying to relay here. There is no reason for all of the expensive crap we run today. And with today's technology, how hard could it be to make all participants keep the heads legit. I love the old car stick deal, and I've owned both the old and the new. I believe with both cars worked out, the new has the advantage over the old, and I believe the old cars still attract the crowd, especially the local crowd. Thanks for sharing. PM me anytime. I also owned, and drove Lyndon Bodnard's SS\CS 67 camaro to a Big Shoot-out win at Bethany. It used to be Danny Byrd's C\SM. I blew his motor up the 4th pass in the car, and bought a 292 short block for $600, had Ron's fix the head I hurt, and ran a best .17 under, 170 lbs. over wt. in SS\CS. Not great, but I was thrilled. That was back when .17 under, was decent. That was with a set of 461X's.

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Apples to Apples I'd have taken Jennifer O'Neill any day of the week all year long.
http://cdn2.bigcommerce.com/server49...77.200.220.jpg

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She is pretty, but my boobs may be bigger. :-)
Not Pam's. LOL

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Assuming a 3000 lb car and a 301. Where could it run in SS? Could it definitely run the index? Try one or two at a points meet in Eliminator to show the theory and keep track of the cost. Bet it could be 1/4 of current class cars.(except Billy cars)

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I had a great discussion with a man who has not commented here but keeps track of all our posts about the subject: A CHEAP,Heads up class with very LIMITING rules regarding equipment which can be used to race. To all of you who do not care to comment but are interested in this project, Thank you and stay tuned. More ideas are coming including local track discussions, NHRA discussions, etc.
Any of you with Sponsor connections, or willing to post money for encouragement of this type project please stay in the loop. My email is butler3529@woh.rr.com if you wish to respond off the web page at this time. Some how we need to get a handle on how many prior racers or current people would like to become involved in a SIMPLE, CHEAP class by creating a limited motor combo to replace their broken, outdated, non competitive one.
Thanks for reading

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I wish we could have facebook features in here like unfollow and hide buttons, man give it a rest, never going to happen

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Randy I messaged Competition Plus. They just did a piece on Modified. I email them telling what was going on. harleynsc@ aol.com messaged me back . May be able to help out. Vette1

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i am with you Nitro Joe, not a chance in hell this will EVER come about

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Just something to B.S. about in the off season. I don't see it ever happening.

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Joe and Jim, Thanks for your comment does that mean you dont WANT it to happen? If you just dont believe it can happen I appreciate your one time thought. If you think it a good idea to cut the costs of SS or Stock racing in 1/2 or more then maybe you should at least add your positive input as support for those racers who cannot compete with COPO cars or BLOWN MUSTANGS tuned by the factory on a heads up basis. If drag racing should be about everyone having a class (as NHRA and others) offer then a Cheap class wouldnt hurt. It might even help.... just saying....

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There appears to be two different ideas going on here. Are we talking about an additional semi-affordable Super Stock subcategory, or are we talking about a semi-affordable heads-up class? If it's the former, there are already ways to run Super Stock semi-affordably **if you choose to**.

If it's the latter, there are ways of making heads-up racing cheaper, leveling the playing field, and making it easier to police. Require an approved restrictor plate and a 2" cone collector. Done. I did extensive computer modeling on this many, many years ago, and it works ridiculously well. You can spend money on all the trick carbs and heads you want, but when they can't breathe, it's not worth anything. Efficiency is rewarded over cubic dollars.

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Don't waste your breath Michael. It's not "trick" or "expensive" enough. Everybody knows that something that simple can't work!

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Micheal<YES to both questions. Yes to a SS class which is Cheap. Yes hoping enough become active at least a Class race will be fun Heads Up. Beyond that who knows. Billy does, Joe does, Jim Does but.... I didnt think a 7 second Bracket race would show up and take over points meets either but Here is TOP/Sportsman and Dragster. FAST bracket racing favored by the establishment because it is paid for by outside money(My understanding)

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Why be a dick...........go back to facebook.

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Vette, that sounds like a place to start. The nay Sayers for the most part don't want this to work. The sad part is we're trying to beg racing organasations to race. What a crock. I can't believe with all the after market heads out there they haven't already came up with a spec head class. But I believe spec heads up is the way to go to save local tracks from extinction. Don't tell me I'm the only one to notice the crowd number to car count at circle racers compared to drag racers.

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I really don't understand all the negative comments. I asked the question earlier and I don't believe anyone has answered, so I will ask it again-- When the original C/SM class was thought up I have a feeling it was for the same reason Randy is suggesting this class now, with that in mind I'm sure those individuals had an uphill battle on their hands but they apparently fought through all that and came up with a class that I believe ended up having quite a following from both racers and fans. So what is so different now that so many people are so adamant that it will never happen? I certainly understand the desire to use older cars with manual transmissions, but if the class was structured that I could use my present Super Stock legal 1983 Camaro with a PG, I for one would consider building an engine like Randy and others are suggesting. My present engine is an older SS/CS engine that I broke a rod in. This happened several years ago and I just have not been able to convince myself to spend the money to build another short block with the knowledge that once back together it will never be able to compete against the other CS competitors, not to mention the expense of maintaining such a high RPM engine. All of this is what makes the Econo Modified class interesting to me.

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Rick, it ain't the fact you can't compete in SS\CS. It's the fact that the heads you have are basically 50 horse shy, and you would have to spend, in my opinion, about $8 to $10,000 to catch up. That's the part I thought would be attractive. Now, a lot of people say the comp guys would just come over and destroy the class. Unless they cheat, which I doubt they would do, they really won't have too much of a leg up on us. I do know they know chassis, short blocks, etc. better then some, but there is only so much power in a short block, and if that beats you, you're real close to winning. As far as the car, and trans, I see the excitement of older cars, and sticks, and how attractive they are, but I think we need to include others just to have a show. That being said, I know there is a slight advantage to newer cars, but that could be addressed. Eventually, with no break out in effect, the autos will probably go by the wayside. I'm just waiting for the word to finish my 67 nova. I already have a guy lined up to plum and wire it. Al Parker said he would go through the chassis, and brakes for me, and start on the short block of my choice, once there are rules. I have a guy already lined up to paint it. That being said, if it never goes, I still have all the bells, and whistles to put it on the street with one of my spec engines.

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Nice part of the current Spec Head discussion is it gives ALL brands a fairly level field on heads. Short Blocks are the same. Then its minor tweaks like new versus old Body shape etc but ...Stick /Auto . 50 lb break either way would be a fair start...

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Works for me Dick. Like I've stated to those who say it will never work. NEVER have we been given the chance to run any of three brands, with almost exactly the same potential. This has NEVER happened, even in Pro Stock. Just think. you would NEVER have to update you're cylinder heads. NEVER!

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Something called the ProStockTruck lawsuit is what makes it so different.
If you aren't willing to "pay to play" then don't expect your own eliminator.
Now if you were willing to set up your own loose circuit that would travel around to local tracks and put on a show for minimal cost or no cost to the track owner (kind of like midwest nostalgia PS, supercharged warriors) then you might get something going. THAT would be the way I would suggest you get going anyway, if there is interest in it it will thrive.
If one of you wants to send me a PM, I'll give you my ideas on what you're trying to do but I already spelled it out for Dick years ago and he wasn't interested.

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What the heck does that have to do with this? So some guys built some trucks for an eliminator that wasn't popular.......it sure as hell wasn't for me anyway. The trucks would run , I would go walk thru the pits.
Its a hobby , these are toys.get over it.


Whats this "pay to play" crap he keeps referring to?
.

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I'm guessing that news travels slow in your neck of the woods.
NHRA created PST and a bunch of Racers built them, spending millions to do so. It didn't bring in the expected revenues, NHRA did away with PST. Racers that spent millions to build PSTs sued NHRA and won a settlement. I doubt that we will ever see NHRA create a new Eliminator again.
The NHRA Pro Mod program isn't run by NHRA, it is run at NHRA Natl. Events but the Pro Mod Owners make their own financing, not NHRA. That is where the "pay to play" comes from. The owners have to pay NHRA to be there. It will be the same with the TF Harley deal.