Indy Tear Down
 

It was not what you would call an exciting day. We tore down one V10 (BB/SA) and one 6.1 Hemi (A/S). All OK. Nothing worth a discussion (that means we left some). But in my observation when I took a break from checking head gaskets for NHRA (just trying to be helpful) there were a couple of things that made no sense. There was a 440-6 Challenger B/SA, Div 5 car, qualified middle of the pack in the always popular B/SA, lost first round. It had the old steel heads (some new Edlebrocks were allowed recently). Why in the world was that car there? And your astute reporter noticed some other stuff that one must wonder just what are the qualifications for teardown; go fast (not in that instance), win class (not in that instance), got some new parts (no 1970 ain't new parts). And there were several other cars that I don't really know what was to be learned from taking them apart. Then in Super Stock in SS/DA which we have a car in, Allen Wade (might be Alan) 69 Camaro 396 (I guess), Div 3, beautiful car, qualified No 5 in a 5 car field. Lost first round of class. What's the point? I mean a 69 Camaro. How many 69 Camaros have been looked at; how many that did not run to the front. And not very fast on that day. (Sorry Alan). Everyone was very courtious (and so was I), and that's a job with all that iron apart in the hot weather. Seems there would be some sort of logical order to this stuff. I just don't understand the purpose to take down the low qualifiers or folks that didn't even runner up in class. Of course like Forrest says, ' I'm not a smart man'. But I do know what smart is. Someone help me in my time of mental distress. I guess next year all 5 will come down. And I must report that everyone's head gasket was ok.

Re: Indy Tear Down
 

Jeff , how about this one , car win's class SS/AAA and goes more then 1.25 under the index . Get's the index hit 2 tenths and does not have to tear down . Whats up with that ?

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I like the way they do it, it is random, and that way racers never know and will not manipulate the system to their advantage. You just gotta assume that you will be in teardown and if not then you get a day to relax. There has never been a test ,be it goin fast or whatever that got you into the barn. The closest thing was when all class winners were taken apart 10-20 years ago.

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Dave, I understand your point and it is well taken. But I must disagree. Unlike Obama, there should now be some rhyme or reason to do anything. There are virtually no inspections other than National Records or protests. If the car has little or no effect on the class or eliminations, then there is no point. And as pointed out by booster, anytime something like that occurs (1.20 under), there should be an inspection. I fully understand the new parts, new total car, new motor (like the new 426) where 1 passed and 1 failed, or if someone is playing games out there inspections are the aforementioned 'rhyme or reason' to tear someone down. I don't mean this as a fault of NHRA or anyone involved, but it is 2013 and even I have to change (according to my wife anyway). I also understand there must be regulation because it would be "Racers Gone Wild" if there wasn't. Must be some middle ground here somewhere. I missed a whole half day of drinking beer and visiting because of that. Whole Half Day. "English Gone Wild'.

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I was always under the assumption they wanted to see what 'stock' really looked like

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I think anytime index or HP rating is going to be affected, mandatory teardown should commence.

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Now remember, "stock" is different from factory! LOL!!

Wade

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At Gainesville I went 1.26 under fast enough to get 2 tenths off my index. Drove right to Danny Gracia after weighing and fuel check. Fully figuring to get checked. My car is only fifteen minutes work for the teardown crew half hour to 40 minutes for me, just pump it and measure wheelbase and overhang.
He told me he would let me know the next day (during eliminations?). I checked back with him the next day he said no tear down.

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D1 tech once threw me out for to little compression. Their books showed .004 out of the bore, I was .030 down the bore.
Another time their numbers in the book were off (by .375) for deck height. It would have been impossible to start the motor with their specs. I pulled a piston to show them And the director went through the diatribe about "stocker" pistons not always checking legal.
Went right over his head when I explained these were stock (put in by the factory on the assembly line) pistons unaltered never out of the motor before. And if they were not legal what the heck was.
California okayed it the next week. But I was not allowed to race the race, and they never refunded my entry fee.

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Jeff, I agree with you that looking at most cars isn't necessary. However, with the AHFS, every car that qualifies affects the overall average for their combination and we should know it is legal.

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Well Jeff first and foremost there is one part of your reply that is really disturbing,,, "but it is 2013 and even I have to change" No no no, jeff somethings should not change, and one of them is you,,,

now on the other parts, I would go along certainly with the -1.20 cars that are affecting the hp/index being looked at, but don't expect many to be tossed out. I don't think it should be mandatory, but certainly at Indy or an event that allows time, it should be a given

mid and lower pack cars(like myself) should be taken apart at indy for sure. I wish to go to indy next year, right now I am a tenth away from qualifying, so i work on my car and get a tenth or tenth and a half. If everyone knows that you need to be in the top half to get torn down, chances are that some of the mid lower pack cars will push the envelope. I would not be a happy camper if I got bumped out of the field at indy, and there was no teardown for the slower group of cars. Jeff, weren't you part of that group awhile ago ???

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The reason the slowest of the pack don't get a pass is that sometimes (oftentimes?) those are the least experienced racers and they have the biggest problem understanding the rulebook and the procedures in checking an engine properly. Same may goo for the machine shop they used. How many times have you been asked what's allowed with deck height and cylinder head gasket thickness?
But the real issue here is Mr. Teuton missed out on a half-day of beer and that is something NHRA should compensate him for after hours.

Re: Indy Tear Down
 

I got a call from my old English teacher and she said she was abhorred by my incorrect use of the language, but then Miller Brewing called and said that was proper when used in the manner I did. As for as teardown I was indeed in the lower group with both my trucks after the merge with stock and my Super Bee. Somehow I always get there. You thinking it might be a personal problem. I shower every day. And I had to look up abhorred to see what that meant. And as far as the AHFS anything that moves it should be inspected. As far as the AHFS, I don't like it, never did, and only accepted it as interim until a systems of averages with no instant hit could be developed. That system was in place years ago, but not published, therefore leaving it open for political hits. Stock and Super Stock are always moving because we get parts, we get smarter, and we get new cars and motors. The fixed numbers of AHFS are not compatible with the dynamic eliminators. Adjustments should always be based on the averages of the whole eliminator and like motors/combos. Put it in print, and make all the information available to all racers. I rewrite the thing every year, but my email or letters go to the same place in Cyberville.

Re: Indy Tear Down
 

Lots of games are played at Indy by many of the Stock and S/S participants. I'm sure NHRA knows this just like everyone else does. Some of those chosen for teardown could have been there because of previous runs made earlier in the year.

An example of a quick run made earlier in the year is shown in the June 2013 issue of Nitro Joe's Drag Racing Stats. Allen Wade's 69 Camaro was the quickest SS/DA listed in that issue at 9.15 on a 10.20 index.

Could it be that a partial teardown list for Indy was already made out before anyone made a run down the track?

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I was always curious about how they chose who tore down. I have been tore down at Indy in 2008 2011 2012 2013 and drug screened 2009. 2010 I didn't go to Indy I do not believe its a random pick because I am not a lucky person I buy lottery tickets all the time and never win...

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While on the subject of Indy teardown,I noticed a fair amount of racers that were no shows in the first round of Class Eliminations. If you are a no show in Class,can tech still come to your pit and bring you back for teardown or are you safe from coming apart? I`m just curious,I`ve never seen many no shows.

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They didn't even wait until I won class to invite me, they just handed me the slip ( with required signature) and pulled me over and sealed my motor, right after first rd of class. It wasn't a bad deal and im sure everyone lost some tools because they were all getting shared by everyone. Good Times

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Stubbs, I'm sure we stole some. I willmake it up on the next physical fitness thing I get from you.

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Jeff a fishing trip will do it

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I agree with Dave 200%. What if I take my bogus car to Indy next year. I have a roller cam in it and the heads are bogus as all heck. Now I know they only pull apart the faster cars or class winners so I sand bag and run just fast enough to get in. Now in round 3 I have a heads up. I out run the guy who one class and went to tear down by 2 tenths. Lets keep everyone honest even the slower cars.

They should tear down anyone that affects a class or HP rating for an engine combo. But as we all know it's easier said then done. Barry

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Who should go to the barn?

All factory showdown cars, If the ahfs does not apply to them, they need to pay some kind of price to get into the race.

#1, #128, #1 alternate, winner and runner up of classes of ten cars or more. New parts cars; cars that were given new parts: heads, carbs, the forty year old cam find, or what ever else in the way of new parts.

The worst sandbaggers.

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I don't have any experience in the "teardown mode", but will have before to long I think. I have requested the ability to sit in on some teardown operations. I would like to become familiar with the proper techniques and procedures on "what to check" and "how to check". I believe that tech officials only have a limited amount of time and resources, and should direct their attention toward the most likely offenders. To me that would be the faster folks. An example would be: a police officer pulling over someone that looks like they could be a bank robber, while the bank across the street is actually being robbed:. In other words, if there was a prize to be found in an illegal combination, would you waste your time looking for it in a slower entry? I have never heard anyone say about a slow car "that SOB is cheating", but that would be funny! Of course the most fair way is for everyone to be checked, but is not realistic here. It seems to me that if you are real fast, then you probably can teardown in your sleep.....everyone thinks you're cheating....go to teardown, and confirm that you are "THE MAN". Then you should'nt be subjected to the barn again until your combo finds another 3-4 tenths somewhere. That way you're not in there every year while others skate by. I think there should be a value on how far under you are....say -80...that would be used to determine if they would like to look at you. Any time you achieve that, you are placed on the list for teardown consideration. If you're the 3rd or 4th fastest car in class in the country, you probably don't care if the 9th or 10th fastest car is cheating or not......BUT YOU DO CARE IF 1 and 2 ARE!

Wade Mahaffey

Re: Indy Tear Down
 

Wade, I can tell you that if you applied that thinking on your bank robbery theory, that would amount to Profiling. And if an arrest was made, No Probable Cause exists. Result: sued for false arrest.
You are right in your thinking that the fastest folks should be takin apart. All class winners should come apart.

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Why would anyone want to run class if you had a tear down for the prize? It already pays nothing. I agree that random tear downs should be done on the faster group of cars or with any protest, but when was the last one of those.

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The fastest cars would naturally be more suspect, but if the slowest car in a qualified field such as the U.S. Nationals is cheating, and someone who is perfectly legal does not make the field as a result, then that changes everything.

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If you are going to do limited tear downs, why not use the average for a combination as a guide. For example, if you have 7 396/375 cars; 3 are slower than the average, 3 are slightly faster than average, one's off in his own zip code of fast. That's a good indicator that he should be looked at.

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For what it is worth.

I talked to 3 good friends, who also happen to be current or former NHRA tech officials, all of them well liked and respected, who said they found more illegal cars in the bottom 10 of the field than in the top 20. A lot more.

If you think about it, being really fast is just inviting a tear down. There are a few cars that are extremely fast that have been torn down by respected tech guys and found legal, more than once, but are still accused of being completely illegal, even by guys who you'd think would not be fooled.

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I don't think there is any slow cars at INDY, if you can make it in your fast maybe sandbagging a little just to get in. I think anybody in the field could be in the barn. Just my opinion I am I the only one that thinks this way?

Re: Indy Tear Down
 

I think when you pull through the gate at a race as big as Indy, you should have some say on who goes to the barn. Here's how easy that is. When you go to the tech trailer with your credentials, and your running Stock or Super Stock, you get a blue teardown card. Write a competition number down for your enemy, foe, record holder, guy who smarted off, doesn't matter your reasoning, that would be one vote for that car. NHRA tallies that up Wednesday night, then includes the #1 Q and whoever else they feel needs to be there. Post a sheet for how many lucky votes you received by Thursday night and there you have it. I have been back class racing since 2007, there are some very fast cars that have never been in the barn, but somehow, the same guys seem to go over and over. We all know at least 1 car that needs to go, why not help them out. One thing is for sure, it is not random right now......

Wade

Re: Indy Tear Down
 

^^
I don't like that idea as that would be more of a vote for popularity contest. People would be getting voted in just because others don't like them personally. I've seen guys get protested just simply because some one wanted to cause trouble for them that weekend in other series(person admited to that). If a person feels strongly enough that someone else is not following the rules pay the money and protest them.

Re: Indy Tear Down
 

the bottom 10 must not be very smart.....

Re: Indy Tear Down
 

Mr. Teuton,

I'm not sure what all your old English teacher had to say, but I just have one word for you: paragraphs. I love reading your posts, but they would be much easier to read if you broke them up a bit with some paragraphs. Don't be afraid to hit the enter key a couple of times in a row. :)

Also, while I'm at it, and this is directed to no one in particular, it's spelled congraTulations, not congraDulations.

That is all.

Re: Indy Tear Down
 

Then there are the cars that run fast at points meets but never enter a national event or slow down considerably when they do run a national event.

Re: Indy Tear Down
 

A man after my own heart!! Jim

.

Re: Indy Tear Down
 

D, one vote won't make you popular enough to stand out......

I wouldn't consider it being picked on if 15 of the 170 people wanted my car in teardown. With 1 person making the decisions, it could be read that way. Ask the guys who have been in the barn the last few years......

Wade

Re: Indy Tear Down
 

Allen, as usual, you make some valid points. However, I have to wonder if those cars in the bottom half just didn't have the pull or just weren't interested in calling tech and instead of being illegal were deemed "legal" over the phone or on the spot depending on the circumstances. The reason I wonder if this is the case is because I have seen tech over ruled way to many times when the tech doing the inspection was 100% correct in calling a car illegal. Not even a grey area. Case in point: modified combustion chambers in SS several years ago. Still welding being done on a regular basis when the rule book says none. Plug locations being moved. Etc.

As far as teardowns and how to choose them. How about cars that can and have run tenths below an already fast record and never set the record (or win class for one reason or another). Years ago, I built a combo that ran in a popular class and it was clearly 2 tenths faster than anyone had gone in that class. At the first divisional it ran he was told by tech that he needed to set the record at the next divisional he attended because "it would be a shame to be torn down and not get the record". Message read loud and clear. He set the record, was checked from top to bottom and found legal. More of that and less BS is what is needed today.