How competitive are you?
 

Would you build a car and race if only 4 classes existed? Would you race if you had to run the same thing others race to fit a class? or is your competitive feeling a cheaper car that can win on a dial in rather than heads up being faster, quicker, more able to drive than another on the tree?
If NHRA or (?) held races which were planned to feature Heads up 3 or 4 class races to increase the crowd appeal would you support the concept or? for the good of class racing?
Hold off on the money comments about people who can afford more expensive cars. Consider a less expensive car but the SAME cars in one class.

Re: How competitive are you?
 

The definition of insanity goes something like this, "Doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result".
Question 1, yes, I'd race a wheelbarrow full of rocks if that's all we could race.
Question 2, yes, if I had to but this is a trick question. Is everybody racing the SAME thing and using the SAME rules? I doubt it.
Question 3, I don't see what you're asking.
Question 4, isn't that what the ADRL, etc, etc, is doing? You want to increase crowd appeal? Have the drivers stand on top of their cars, light themselves on fire and scream "look at me". See if you can get Michael Beard to explain "International Pro Stock to you.

Re: How competitive are you?
 

Depends on the day. ;)

Just off the top of my head, if I recall, it's basically small-motor Pro Stock with rules like the K/A Comp class. Every manufacturer makes a car and engine combination that fits. "Real" cars that everyday people buy the standard production car versions of. Wide variety, countless options, and modern technology applicable to their factory counterparts develops a broader interest from builders, engineers, and fan base alike.

I've long advocated for a logical consolidation and/or adjustment of weight breaks, and integration of sticks & automatics for the same reason. There'd still be plenty of bracket racing, but more heads-up racing would lead to more research and development, more sales for manufacturers, and a more effective AHFS. -- Delicious irony, coming from a bracket racer! LOL

Depends on what they were and what format. If it wasn't my thing, and there was a market for additional classes or types of racing, then I would create the desired class(es) and format myself to fill that hole in the market.

Anyone that's been here for any length of time understands what you're getting at. No need to beat around the bush. Just offer the detailed proposal, and go from there.

Re: How competitive are you?
 

Dick,

Don't you think the sport is dying fast enough for you !!!! What about the little guy who still wants to race but doesn't have the Big bucks ... Your seeing the car counts going down fast enough without heads-up Racing ?
I think it's time for you to get another idea like AHRA ( heads-up only ), hope you have lots of money ???? Give it a Rest, when is your Racecar coming out to the Track anyway ???... Billy, you are Right On Again !!!!!
I think racers would like to see Sticks & Auto combined first and see how that goes ? Remember Car counts are important to all kinds of Racing, when it comes to pay-outs ... Let's try to help Racing, not kill it ....

Re: How competitive are you?
 

X2, Dave

Re: How competitive are you?
 

IHRA tried something like that in the pre-Bader years. Got rid of Stock, Superstock, Modified, etc, and made .90 classes from 7.90 to 12.90. It didn't go so well in the end. If you are talking true "heads up" no breakout racing, then each class will become the playground of maybe 1/2 dozen cars, and the rest of the guys will park their cars or go buy a boat or take up golf.

Re: How competitive are you?
 

That was during the "Little Billy" Meyer's rein.....

Re: How competitive are you?
 

John, Bob,Ron......and everyone else ...

History does try to repeat ..... We have enough rules & changes, let's enforce the ones we have first ... Let's just Race ....

Re: How competitive are you?
 

Just a series of questions because I am still interested in trying to help with a track which is finding Heads up attracts spectators. I am trying to substitute NHRA class cars into their program for the street racers so NHRA racers would have a alternative place to race and maybe it would spread. How about TOP/SS cars or TOP/STK cars with factored in New cars?or just new mustang meets? Or Camaro meet?

Re: How competitive are you?
 

Sounds like we're from the same mold. And it goes all the way back to my first bike. Always challenging and beating the other kids in the neighborhood.
Every since I went to the first Top/Stock races I've wanted and sounded off on the idea of combining in groups of three for more heads up races. Seems to fall on deaf ears as most Class Racers are only concerned about themselves, their car, and their perceived advantages.

From Michael Beard:
I've long advocated for a logical consolidation and/or adjustment of weight breaks, and integration of sticks & automatics for the same reason. There'd still be plenty of bracket racing, but more heads-up racing would lead to more research and development, more sales for manufacturers, and a more effective AHFS.

I contacted NHRA about combining sticks & autos and I was told "the majority were not in favor of this". I've never been asked or polled and I don't know of any NHRA members that have been asked. But it's funny that everybody I ask seems in favor of combing sticks and autos.
More heads up races with a fairly adjusted AHFS will save Class Racing.
Less heads up races with an unfairly adjusted AHFS will kill Class Racing.

Re: How competitive are you?
 

The last time I agreed with Jeff Lee I had to take a shower and lobby the good girls to let me out of the "slut of the month club"....Here we go again!
You are right on my friend. More HU races and an AHFS that actually works will save class racing; Fewer HU's and the current AHFS will certainly be the death of it. (or may have already done so) Wish I had said it first. Oh well....off to the showers.

Re: How competitive are you?
 

You actually know good girls? ;)

Re: How competitive are you?
 

That was perfect!!
Happy Holidays to ya Tom...............

Re: How competitive are you?
 

Well at least you are admitting you have agreed with me on MORE than one occasion! :D

Re: How competitive are you?
 

Charlie; I'm glad my humor does not offend you and hope you had a great Christmas and have a wonderful 2013.

Kyle; Yes, as difficult as it may be to believe; many good girls (and some of the other persuasion) actually call me "friend"...........no sheep however.

Jeff: No fair rubbing my nose in it!

All my Class Racer friends: Please send soap.

Re: How competitive are you?
 

Here you go Tom, you have a few choices... :)

http://ny-image2.etsy.com/il_430xN.70525386.jpg

http://img0.etsystatic.com/000/0/534....291923756.jpg

Re: How competitive are you?
 

Dave...Please describe "the little guy" and "Bug bucks" for me. Are you satisfied with just about anything becoming part of the so called car count?

Re: How competitive are you?
 

Maurice, it is interesting that you are calling Dave as regards to "car count" when your agenda is to get rid of heads-up runs and turn the class into a bracket race in lieu of a performance based class.

Re: How competitive are you?
 

Unfortunately everyone of us has to admit an agenda. Some want a place to race a $500 car with more costly cars so we can be part of the NHRA show. Some cannot afford to create the most competitve "any class " car. Some of us can afford VERY expensive cars, Car haulers, Motor homes etc. Some just want to keep the same car we had for 40 years and cannot imagine changing for the long term good of the WHOLE Stock or SS racing. Some of us no longer run a car for x reason or the other but still watch the same upsets, same whining, same lack of action by the NHRA but the continued love for the sport. When I watch Snow Mobiles as part of the "Show" at an NHRA event it is soooo Obvious to me that if you will pay to bring it to the track, THAT is the agenda of NHRA. Entry Money.
Lack of spectators, Lack of Sponsors, Lack of advertising is all much less important if the entry pays the bills.
Without Someone, Something doing it 180degrees different payouts, Sponsors, Spectators, Fairness of rules will be absent and everyone will pass away wishing it could have been......
Thus my continued Honest interest in these discussions...and my support for changes which will leave the racing better than it is today for everyone involved.

Re: How competitive are you?
 

In your humble opinion, Dick! The best way (IMHO)to make Drag Racing "better than it is today" would be to call for a moratorium on rule changes for the next 5 years! Right now, all of NHRA racing is so unstable that I can understand why no one would want to invest in building or buying a car! It's simple business (you ARE a business man aren't you?). Where are you going to get the best return on your investment? Is a new factory racer a good investment? Maybe in the long term (maybe). Is a classic Muscle Car racer a good investment? Probably but with too many variables. Ask a racer building a dragster how good its investment potential is, it's nil, but it's relatively inexpensive and it should be long lived (in re. to rule changes). Now ask yourself how long can I race one of these cars before it has the possibility of becoming obsolete.
If you think that you can make Drag Racing "better than it is today" by coming up with a handful of heads-up classes then good luck but it ain't gonna happen. Pro Stock isn't even doing too well at this point because the financial investment required won't allow it a return on its investment and the racers that ARE investing are getting tired of the outlays VS. the benefits.
All forms of Drag Racing have always had "money guys and working guys" (example, Garlits VS. Ivo) and I don't have any problems (well maybe a couple) with a racer spending what ever he's comfortable or capable of spending. BUT, for every "money guy" out there I'll guarantee you that there is probably at least a couple of dozen that won't or can't spend a great amount and these are the guys that you have to encourage to come and stay in the sport or it can't survive (how did Top Stock work out for you!).
If you truely want to help make Drag Racing become "better than it is today" then encourage NHRA to leave the rules alone and encourage a couple of neighborhood kids to go Bracket Race at the local track, maybe even take them there and help them out. In the long run they're the only hope that Drag Racing has for a future.
I guess what all of this crap comes down to is "how much are you willing to spend on entertainment and how many people can you get to do it"?

Re: How competitive are you?
 

Muarice,
First of all it's Big bucks not Bug bucks , I know you knew that ??? All I was trying to say, is why does it have to be about New cars & Money?
Stock class, is suppose to be an entry level into Racing, let's leave it at that ... If you want to race with no-rules , you can go bracket racing and
pick how fast you want to run ? I think heads-up are fine when they happen , but making everything heads-up will hurt racing ... I don't think anyone's wants that to happen, if you do run 10.90,9.90 8.90 classes...

I think it's fine to have the heads-up as part of an event, but how many times can you try this before you see it's not for most racers? Ask the racers in Div 2 , they had an avg. of 8-10 cars .. That was with no-rules just 12.0, 11,0 10.0 dials, any engine, etc . Don't you think we have enough side- show things going at races today ???
The little guy is who keeps racing alive for all of us to use, look at Top Stock ? Great idea, but rules, $$$$, and lack of support ? The little guy is someone who really loves Racing , but doesn't have alot money to invest their operation .. (Racecar,tow-rig,parts, travel, etc ) I am only speaking about Class- Racers here, not everyone else in Racing ... They have paid their dues over the years, let's not forget them ....

Dick, I do agree that racing is at a crossroads and something needs to change ? As I have said many times before, you need to support Class-racing on a local level ? It's the Best game around, Allstar Racing, East Coast Racing, CCRA ,Jim Wahl group & all the others across the USA .
More support to your Local track's, so they can stay afloat (Car Counts ).
We need to support the people who support Us & Class Racing... Racing is also being Hurt by tough economy & gas prices ... Enough said ...

" Happy New Year " everyone ....

Re: How competitive are you?
 

I just consider myself a drag racer, not a class racer, bracket racer ,heads up racer,ect. I am not successfull at any of the above,but I'm all right with that. To me the problem is ***'s in the seats,if the stands are empty you can have classes , rules ,brackets ,and crap till the cows come home and nothing is going to change.
If you agree that this is a business then it has to be geared to the consumer, you are a participant, not a consumer. A consumer pays to get his family in to watch the excitment of racing. He can go to a ball game ,an amusement park,or just stay home.If he decides to spnd his money at the track he must be entertained. Now in an ideal world he would know classes ,index's, tear down specs and H.P. revisions of all organizations, but he doesn't.
IMHO make it simpler,easier to understand,keep it to around two hours for a complete show.
As racers we despise the clowns, burnout contests,fireworks shows and wheelie stunt bikes but the average spectator loves them. We must find a way to co-exist with this type of program to survive.If this is going to survive as a sport we need paying fans in the stands. All this other talk and bickering is not going to mean nothing.
Once again I am just a drag racer. When I attend a National event I find that a lot of racers are very arrogant ,unfriendly sorts of people. I have heard a young fan ask a uninformed question and seen him laughed at or given a smartass answer.
Anyway what do I know ,I'm just an old man that likes cars that go fast.

Re: How competitive are you?
 

SS... No I don't believe I stated that at all. I just think we need to raise our standards on what we are allowing to be part of the show. The bottom line is the stands are empty and the payouts should be spectator subsidized. Stock and Super Stock in my opinion should remain as hardcore. That way the financial respect and knowledge for the classes will remain. We already have a sanctioning body that doesn't take things seriously, maybe it has something to do with our presentation.
Drag racing has lots of other classes that can meet a persons budget. I just think Stock and Super Stock should remain hi-performance based and exciting. The sport has changed as well as the interest as time progresses and the interest needs to be recaptured for the survival. Just my opinion.

Re: How competitive are you?
 

The question should be, "Why are drag racers scared of true racing with rules, but circle track racers are not"? "Why are spec heads accepted in circle track, but not drag racing?" "Why do the circle track guys draw crowds of 1500 a weekend, at the local level, but bracket racing draws 3?" We truly have taken the crowd appeal out of drag racing. The truth hurts. I would race in a heads-up affordable format.

Re: How competitive are you?
 

Heads up and affordable are incompatible.

Re: How competitive are you?
 

We're not "scared" of "spec" anything. The big difference between circle track and drag racing is the difference in the amount of teardowns that would be needed. Ay any given circle track on any given Friday night, you've got what, 4 or 5 different classes of which maybe 2 need to be torn down. NHRA had dozens of classes and the skilled manpower needed just isn't there. Circle tracks have "claimers" too! Now I'd love to see that in a "heads-up" format! I think that I'd do pretty well.

Re: How competitive are you?
 

Why do the circle track guys draw crowds? Lots of chances for accidents and drama in the pits. There is a race nearly every weekend with the same local racers in a span of only a few hours drive. The racers friends and family and cousins are involved and everyone knows each other. Everyone gets together to have a good time and drink some beer and hang out. Drama between drivers and families can help add to the draw sometimes. Everybody pretty much knows everyone else so it's just a bunch of good ole boys.

One of the things I love about drag racing is the competitiveness and ingenuity of racers and builders. To me that's the most fun is thinking outside of the box to find an edge on the competition. Wether it's in HP or chassis.

Heads up never ends cheaply. It almost always starts with a racers sounding like baby chicks "cheap cheap cheap cheap cheap". Racing starts competitive people forge their way to the top and spend more then the next guy for R&D. You have spec engines? Fine one of the most expensive part is now cheaper (except some would say in drag racing HP is king and what it's all about so you are neutering the very core SOME may say) Besides there will still be people that will do the R&D for the chassis and do all the testing etc... Then the argument between the "have's" and the "have not's" will continue. The only way you can keep the cost low is sealed everything with no tweaking or testing. Like go carts at the local fun zone. No body sits and watches those for fun just stand in line waiting their turn to race another person(s).

It's a viscous cycle. Cheap cheap cheap...new class....happiness...competitiveness....dominance. ...evoulution.....new racers have a tough time jumping into the class to compete with the veterans that have been in the class since inception......complaining ....car counts lower.....more complaining...cheap cheap cheap....creative destruction old class dies new class is born.

Re: How competitive are you?
 

The reason circle track draws crowds, is the same reason Eddyville drew crowds before 1980. Actual racing. I was there in 79, and I was there in 80. Pro stock is unbelievably expensive. Just like comp, and others. No one has tried to limit the head, in either pro stock, top stock, etc. Drag racing should have never allowed computers, or in my opinion, clutchless trans. All take the driving out of the equation. I know I'm probably flogging a dead horse, but local drag racing needs a shot in the arm. Let's look at some scenarios, shall we. Pro stock, $125,000 chassis, $125,000 motor, $250,000 misc. Comp, basically the same. SS, $50,000 car, $35,000 engine, $10,000 trans, $100,000 misc. Spec, heads, $1,700 new, short block, the best, $7,500, Trans, $3,500, clutch, single disc, $1,800. car, 72 and older, $25,000. All this, and 1\3 the price of SS. The head company could police the head, just like they police it at Knoxville. No computers allowed. How would anyone run away with it. Have a $500 head exchange only. No one will have an advantage under those simple rules. I don't see why the HRA's haven't tried it. I know one thing, what they're doing now is not drawing spectators. And the new car classes are all right, but still expensive, and no one knows their limits. Anyone afraid of a well policed spec class must have other issues. Don't let it get out of hand, and it won't. Have a $1,000 fine for any, and all infractions.

Re: How competitive are you?
 

Cost of Heads up is too much? Heads up Comp motors or ? Make it simple and limit them tightly. Carb size, header size have been suggested. Make the motor legal in ANY car you have now provided the wt break fits.Sure someone will have a cavalier, but rules can be made to make them and vettes and whatever in one class. Box cars in another.
Week ends at the local tracks can have the local Bracket guys getting involved so the Round track excitement of Local heros can develop in Drag racing TOO.
If you need bogus HP to be competetive you are using it as a crutch. Beat someone with the SAME combo, same hp, same cubes and you have achieved it

Re: How competitive are you?
 

Good point Dick. Just examples here now, so bear with me. 2" headers max, 13" slicks max, 1 single disc clutch, not smaller then 10.5" no computers, .600 lift cam, stud mounted rockers, except mopar, steel valves, 1 750 carb, 6.50 rear ratio max, no titanium or carbon driveline parts, other then drive shaft, (safety issue), no vac pumps, no external oil pumps, no billet pumps, no left hand starters, distributor in stock location, cam, standard journal size, and in stock location, lifter, standard size, cast aluminum intake only, heads, brodix spec, mopar, ford, and chevy, milling, and polishing the combustion chamber only mods, brodix has final say on teardown, spec fuel, say C-12, ,4 pro tree, min. wt. 3,000 lbs, cars older then 82, 75 lb. break, autos a 5% break. Clutch must be used to shift ALL gears. Just ideas mind you.

Re: How competitive are you?
 

More rules just means more expense to try other things. You can't regulate and police it enough. Also more strict rules will also mean less interest from new guys and spectators who don't want to watch "homologated jelly beans" to quote someone here.

As for the cost of NHRA Pro-stock and Comp. Here is what one comp racer who is trying to make a go in Pro-stock told me.

"Car $130,000 Do not buy used,it's being sold for a reason....

Trans and clutches, $40,000 you need two of each and at least 7 or 8 sets of extra trans raitos.

Rear ends, $5000 a piece and you need at least 4 raitos....

Two or three sets of tires and wheels with different rollouts, $7500

Various spare parts and tools, $20,000

Engine lease program, $500,000 min but prob more.

Build your own engines? 2 million to get started...

Truck/trailer... Whatever you want. Mine was bottom dollar cheap and it's 19 years old. I have $100,000 into the truck and trailer.

Cost to run the tour for a season? $500,000 plus what ever you do for engines...(Lease or build your own)

In Pro Stock your gonna spend a million a year min if you want to do the tour. Thats what we are trying to come up with now(1 mil) and all that will do is lease the engines and get us on the tour. It will not be enough to be competitive or do any testing. We will be a bottom of the pack car.

As for comp? All depends on what class. But about $250,000 with engine ready to run and about $50,000 a year running it."

Re: How competitive are you?
 

Affordable heads up is an oxymoron.
Kinda like "military intelligence".

Re: How competitive are you?
 

Affordable heads-up is what the roundy-round guys are doing. Unless they are dialing in there laps, and breaking out during eliminations. Might be, haven't been to one in a while. That being said, the hard working guys would still win, just not as wide a margin. What, pray tell, is going to bring spectators back to local strips. If you remember, the stands didn't empty when mod ran at Indy, and the most talked about class, was the most restricted, Super Mod. Are the circle track boys that much smarter, and gutsier then drag racers? They're still bringing in the crowds, and todays local strips could sell all their bleachers, and put up 3 or 4 lawn chairs, and have a chair, or 2 to spare. Why is spec working on the circle, and why haven't they folded those classes. Just like in roundy-round racing, have classes, (which we have now) that they can spend a $million on, but have the cheaper one to. I think what stops spec from happening, is it don't cost enough, and that scares people away that can't outspend the competition.

Re: How competitive are you?
 

Speaking of intervention.....

Re: How competitive are you?
 

Right now drag racing doesn't need any new classes or changes nearly as much as it needs MORE participants at the grassroots level.

The biggets issue facing the decline of drag racing as us old folks knew it is numbers of people interested in participating. And making it MORE affordable not less affordable..

Selling $100,000 dollar stockers is not a recipe for a healthy sport.

NHRA loves to promote these new carsbut how do you keep a sport alive when there are so few people that can afford to participate...or own and race these cars

You can't keep driving the cost of racing higher and higher and expect it will survive past the men of my age that have been doing it for many years and can afford it....

NHRA and many of you Classracers don't seem to recognize your dealing the sport a death blow by welcoming the new cars that come with rediculously high prices.

Local tracks are closing....and without grassroots level drag racing our sport will die.....

Re: How competitive are you?
 

I ran a roundy round car on dirt through the '80s. Non Of the guys I ever ran onto we're the innovators we race. It is more car than engine. Most everybody had cookie cutter cars, store bought engines. And usually two, many had as many as three, spares in the trailers. It wasn't hard to make all the power you could put on the ground. It's dirt, remember. Two and three 50 lap race nights a week, reliability and car handling and drivers are the big deals. We had winged sprint cars (World of Outlaws rules), usually 1/4 mile or 3/8th mile tracks. How fast it would go around the corners had much more to do with lap times than straight away speeds. Driver and car meant more than the engine. I always did my own engines. Never had had a problem keeping up with the money guys. Hiring the right driver was the really big deal.
People in the stands were mostly locals coming out to see if Bubba was going to beat Billy Bob this week, or if Jim Bob was going to sneak in. The local points chase was a big deal. My car won three championships in a row at Tulsa. Finally got so expensive car counts went in the dumper. Saw the same people about every week. That track has been closed for several years now.
Can't really compare it to what we do.

Re: How competitive are you?
 

The only time I see the stands full, or at least mostly full, is when I turn on "Pinks"

Re: How competitive are you?
 

"Finally got so expensive car counts went in the dumper. Saw the same people about every week. That track has been closed for several years now."


Sounds familiar and this is exactly what I am talking about is happening to Drag Racing .....

Re: How competitive are you?
 

Ed

That was right in lines with what I was going to say. I have a few friends who race and some even own shops dealing with circle track. Some spend a ton of money while other spend little in comparison. Most money is spent on repairs from trading paint. Circle track is very popular around my area. Somebody is related to or friends with someone that races. The little town has nothing better to do other then go to the races usually for entertainment.(I live in that town lol).

In drag racing we spend gobs of money to find 5hp or gain less then a tenth of a second in one straight acceleration burst. While the circle trackers don't care about 15 HP has it can be made up easily in one corner.

In the end circle track is different then drag racing and attracts different fans. Spec engine classes aren't a terrible idea but its not the end all solution either. I don't think the NHRA needs more classes. If your looking for local stuff look for what is happening in your local scene that's going to get racers and their friends and family in the seats.

Re: How competitive are you?
 

Everyone relax. It'll never happen. Drag racing will continue down the path it's on, and die a slow, painful death. I'd say SS and comp will be dead in 10 years. I hope I'm wrong, but in the next 4 years, we'll be lucky to afford going to a race, let alone competing.