Junior Stock vs IHRA Pure Stock
 

Been trying to get an answer.

What is the difference between these classes?

Dan

Re: Junior Stock vs IHRA Pure Stock
 

Good question.

Since Jr. Stock was before my time, I would be interested to hear the similarities (or differences) as well.

Just saw this thread:

http://classracer.com/classforum/showthread.php?t=44410

Re: Junior Stock vs IHRA Pure Stock
 

The reason being ..

I think IHRA has a marketing opportunity here.

With Stock being a Camshaft/Valve Trane away from being Super Stock.
The complaints have been rampant regarding the expense for gasoline, seats, roll bars, seat belts and even the helment requirements.

I remember post Junior Stock all the tracks had weekly Stock and Super Stock racing before Bracket Racing became the rage.

Think this is an opportunity to recruit the new bread of cars with Junior Stock of old. I know many of the cars are out there and serviceable enough to bring back to life.

Considering all the new aftermarket body parts available and the rise of restoration shops all over the nation.

Pure Stock a good class and renaming Junior Stock should bring benefits.
Yet still using the existing Pure Stocker rules.

Renaming it Junior Stock would revive the nostalgia for the class and bring the past and future together.

FWIW PS is a more fun class than Stock as your anore stressing the platforms as much.

How many Stockers today can you put back into Street Condition without a major overhaul?

But another advantage you can move a Stocker into Junior Stock using the less expensive Pure Stocker Valve Trane.

Tech Inspection would be less time consuming.

Except maybe the Camshaft requirement.
This could be solved by having the Cam Builders Certify their cams are Junior Stock Legal.

IHRA ..think about reviving Junior Stock !!

Think you will get a lot of converts..

Dan Fahey

Re: Junior Stock vs IHRA Pure Stock
 

Just what is needed. More classes. I wouldn't hold my breath.

Re: Junior Stock vs IHRA Pure Stock
 

I would be surprised if IHRA doesn't combine Stock and Super Stock together pretty soon.

Adding another class seems unlikely.The car counts are just not there.

Re: Junior Stock vs IHRA Pure Stock
 

I agree. I would not be surprised at all.

Re: Junior Stock vs IHRA Pure Stock
 

Here's a pic of an old Supercharged Ford from the early 70's...seems like it's deja vu doesn't it.

http://i245.photobucket.com/albums/g...odsonKDS70.jpg

Re: Junior Stock vs IHRA Pure Stock
 

LOL............Now that is funny ! Especially the less tech time consuming part. Most tech specs printed since 1990 do NOT even have duration and overlap cam specs along with valve spring pressures. Checking spring pressures is time consuming. Ed Wright and 442 Olds are correct. In time it will all be combined and I would NOT be surprised to see NHRA combine the two either. Stock is wilder than S/S was just 10 years ago and getting worse. You cannot go to a local drag strip and race stock, S/S or anything close unless the is a local circuit race anymore. Other than circuits, points races, opens, national events where can you go ? Racing every weekend and staying close to home was one of the attractions. With a good car and better driving you could become a local hero to car "Nuts" in your area. A decent purse vs expense was part of it and very important. Its become a game for those who love to spend money or forever be in debt. The car culture socity is almost non existant. Todays youth is into s**t boxes with a fart can mufflers. The Jr. stocks of yesterday and the rivalry between brands, the left and right coast, "Grumps Group" and the "Valley Boys" is old history. As much as I loved that era of drag racing and Jr. stockers Im afraid its gone for good. Things change and we cant go back. If im wrong I would start on mine today. Todays racing association (IHRA & NHRA) are concerned with putting on a circus act. They dont care about the little guys at all except for filler for the fuel cars and what they can get out of their pockets. The purse is lousy at best for what you put into you equipment. Travel has become a very expensive deal. How many can afford toter homes, 40 ft motor homes and stacker trailers these days plus have the room at most race tracks for all the support equipment. Does anyone go today and not have a golf cart to ride around in all day? Its all about "One upsmanship" and ego. Where have all the guys and gals gone that used to squeeze the last drop of performance from their car. Today is about changing the rules for a better advantage. Not working on your stuff. Even the factory has done it for you these days. Just look at the $100,000 plus so called stockers of today. 8 second "Stockers" with blowers.......makes me puke ! Its nice to dream but I wouldnt hold my breath for very long.

Re: Junior Stock vs IHRA Pure Stock
 

hey stranger , you coming to PRI next week ?

Re: Junior Stock vs IHRA Pure Stock
 

how do you delete this

Re: Junior Stock vs IHRA Pure Stock
 

X-man you said what you really felt in your last sentence and you are NOT ALONE !
I get and understand that sentiment.

I am not talking about a new Class.
Rename Pure Stock to Junior Stock and make some rule adjustments.

I do see brand competition coming back with GM, Ford and Chrysler..
Hell add BMW and Mercedes to the list of cars..
Should add the new ricers to compete since they are the new breed of cars.

New vs old vs Ricer vs American

The market is there already and add the history of barn hidden Junior Stockers will revive the lives of the cars.

Maybe NHRA will combine Stock and SS..

It is my opinion you will get a whole new breed of people into Junior Stock and bring back what we had.

Plus it would create a big upgrade market for those cars to compete and meet class rules.

Junior Stock was affordable and really competitive.
You had huge rivalries for each of the classes.

Just think we need to rethink some of the rules to make it work.
Plus you can drive your car to the track.

With all the nostalgia for Junior Stock I sense a movement to get back to Junior Stock racing !!

Just think you can use real street gas again !!

Dan

Re: Junior Stock vs IHRA Pure Stock
 

Dan, I can tell you didn't race Jr Stock. Nothing cheap about it. My friggin pistons and rings cost (adjusted for inflation) as the stuff I use now in SS. They were not "pure stock" pistons. Money spent buying cylinder head castings for flow testing, since porting wasn't allowed (wink, wink) owning a rick of "cheater cams" to find the fastest, new valve springs every other race because the square lobe GK "cheater" cams kill stock (TRW lasted longer than GM's) valve springs in a heart beat. Cut & welded 3 speed cluster gears to get the ratios needed, etc, etc.
That, and we drove the tech guys nuts checking cams, policing heads, etc. Now, at least, only Stockers can lift is checked, right?
I don't see much Jr Stock & pure stock has that much in common, at least not my old Jr Stocker and the guys I raced. In my class I had Garley Daniels, Buddy Ingersol, Sonny Bryant, and the MPH record holders the Ronca Bros. (How the heck did they run that MPH??) nothing like pure stock. Certainly no picknic for the tech guys. Lmao

Re: Junior Stock vs IHRA Pure Stock
 

Might as well accept it ................"Nothing is ever going to be like it was...." This may be the "quote of the year"
I feel really blessed to have grown up in the time that i did,, lots of good " memories " and was proud to be a part of it.....Just have to learn to go with the flow , like it or not....we do have a choice.... HAPPY THANKSGIVING to all......

Re: Junior Stock vs IHRA Pure Stock
 

So Dan, instead of trying to re-invent the wheel why don't you just build a lower classed Stocker, call it a Jr Stocker and call it a day? I truly do believe that a car like my gold Nova IS a Jr Stocker. As a matter of fact, a famous husband and wife Jr Stock team borrowed it to do some nostalgia racing and are having a blast!
I remember being a kid and trying to figure out the whole Jr Stock thing and I can tell you that it wasn't easy or cheap and it was VERY time consuming.
What I'm getting at is if it looks like a Jr Stocker and sounds like a Jr Stocker, it's a Duck right?

Re: Junior Stock vs IHRA Pure Stock
 

Smart thing to do (IMHO) would be build a car that can run either HRA. If one or the other folds up, or you have to move to another part of the country, you may not find enough tracks whete you can race if the other HRA doesn't have a class you fit.

Re: Junior Stock vs IHRA Pure Stock
 

Building another car to run both HRAs is my plan. This way I can run the local combo races around here as well as 3 div. events and never have to leave the state.
I'll keep racing my Pure Stocker until the P/SA Mustang is done.

Sadly, the days of an average working class guy buying a mostly stock car off a car lot and racing it in a "stock" class are over.

Too many people these days are glory seekers, and they are not about to let a little thing like money stop them. If they have to cash in their 401Ks or get a 2nd mortgage for a few extra h.p. so they can go set a national record or win the "big one", they will. The hell with the future they think. Sad way of thinking.

Re: Junior Stock vs IHRA Pure Stock
 

Alan said:
Too many people these days are glory seekers, and they are not about to let a little thing like money stop them. If they have to cash in their 401Ks or get a 2nd mortgage for a few extra h.p. so they can go set a national record or win the "big one", they will. The hell with the future they think. Sad way of thinking.

Man, Alan, that's cold! LOL
Stock & Super Stock has been populated by guys that live to make their cars faster since I started racing in 1961. Then bracket racing came along, that is where most of the guys that couldn't keep up moved. Most of the faster guys have the money to do it, and most run the higher classes. Many are capable of doing their own engines, etc. Should not be too much of a problem in the lower classes, I wouldn't think.

I sure wouldn't think anybody would take a second mortgage on their home to race. LOL

We do have the problem of check book racers buying the new bogus cars with the funny HP ratings, but probably not in R/SA.

Re: Junior Stock vs IHRA Pure Stock
 

Check book racers won't come down into the lower classes. You can't just go out and buy whatever you need. You've got to go out and FIND it and then make it work. Too time consuming, kinda like Jr Stock used to be. Everything from heads to cams to trans and converters is a totally different deal. You can't just buy something and plug it in.

Re: Junior Stock vs IHRA Pure Stock
 

The average working class guy .....like myself....could not be competitive with a car he bought off the showroom floor and raced all the way back to 1966 when I raced in Jr Stock....If you could afford a new car it would need a lot of work to make it competetive.....and any car that was raced needed a lot of work to run anywhere near what the top cars ran.

Pure Stock was for locals in the late 60's.....and at our local track they ran Cups and Bucks....Cups cars were NOT competetive with the Bucks cars.....The cups cars ran for a class trophy......the Bucks cars ran for the eliminator money.....and you had to win your class first.....

Pure Stock came along on a more serious level in 1972 after NHRA dumped Stock......and had ringers( purpose built cars) in there too......but was not all that popular as I recall it....

Jr Stockers were built from the ground up by the mid 60's......and had all kinds of tricks in them....They were NOT Stock other than the parts required to be run....and many of those parts were already being modified or replaced...Aftermarket pistons.....Aftermarket cams....both were very common by the mid 60's...... Traction devices....Shifters....Clutches......Transmissions .....Wheels.....all these parts were commonly changed modified or replaced with aftermarket....

I raced a car in 1966 thru 1968 and another one in 1970-1972 both stockers. Neither car was "Stock"......and one was basically not even a combination that was ever built by GM....

Re: Junior Stock vs IHRA Pure Stock
 

Back in the older days at Kinston Drag Strip we used to run a class called showroom stock....while the reg classes competed in a semi-pro type race ..we would also let anyone that had a car that drove in on the street and would figure out of the NHRA/IHRA class book and would run as a show room stock...My dad had a 62 ols full size convertible big block car and always got beat by a 59 chevy 4-door 348 big block...my dad used to get mad everytime..if the car was figured j/sa ,you would mark the window and then put a circle around the class #'s showing it was in showroom stock.....

Re: Junior Stock vs IHRA Pure Stock
 

Ed:
There's not alot of the class racers mortgaging their future for 15 minutes of fame.

I admire and respect the racers that slowly work their way up with hard work. I was referring to the newbies that burst onto the scene, spend a wad of cash to run at the top, and within a few years they are filing for bankrupcy.

I saw alot this with the NMRA about 10 years ago. I couldn't figure out how the 20 and 30 something year old guys were getting their money for the fancy rigs and 100K race cars.
Come to find out they were financing their hobby. Now that's insane !

Re: Junior Stock vs IHRA Pure Stock
 

Alan, walk through the staging lanes at an NHRA points race or national event. You won't find a whole lot of brown hair.

Re: Junior Stock vs IHRA Pure Stock
 

For sure.
I wonder what the class racing will be like 10 years from now.

When I first walked thru the pits at the 1983 Winternationals I was a young 21 yr. old fresh out of the Marines.
I was in awe of the Stockers and Super Stockers.
I knew right then I wanted to run Stock Eliminator.

It only took me 29 years to be able to finially run a car in Stock...LOL

Re: Junior Stock vs IHRA Pure Stock
 

Ive got brown hair...hehe... Im gonna do it old school and see what i can accomplish... im even gonna use a Dually(1988) and an open trailer! :D
Gonna do my best to keep the spirit of Stock alive...WHy not? ...Somebody's gotta do it... hehe

Re: Junior Stock vs IHRA Pure Stock
 

Billy, I have been running Stock since 19(and oh)72.
Started with a 64 Impala SS, then 68 GTO and then bought Bob LaSala 1969 Impala.
It is going though a full frame off restoration actually 3rd rebuild.
Been picking Bob Benders mind on what he has done to his ride.

Actually won Stock at Commerce in 1980 and NHRA Points Meet at Moroso in 1983 then had to leave travel racing for while.

In the meantime running PS with the 95 Impala SS.
Been racing as a Bolt On Racer with ECIRS for 10+ years.

The engine had 190K miles, been 13.30's so it was a natural fit for PS.
Had Jeff Warren build a Legal engine, cars was aleady class legal.

Things like a divorce, new jobs, new wife and kid and starting an IT Business sort of slowed things up.

Being a business guy always thinking about business, marketing, ideas.
Example, I played soccer in Central Florida, when I moved back to South Florida I could not find or start a team.
I did play pick up games with ABB, Motorola, Bendix and Racal Milgo.
So I started a Corporate Soccer league for them that is going strong today.

My idea was basically changing the name Pure Stock to Junior Stock.
Pure Stock in Roundy racing has their concept and image,
Junior Stock has a different but meaningful image for drag racing.

Then there is the complaining about the cost of Stock.
Especially the rule you have to use the track fuel.
Already got a few rules changed at NHRA and IHRA.

For example if IHRA would allow integrated Electric Water Pumps more Stockers could naturally move to Pure Stock err Junior Stock :D.

Dan

Re: Junior Stock vs IHRA Pure Stock
 

There you go......You are already trying to change the rules of the class. More money ! Elec. water pumps and drives were NOT used in the Jr. stock days. If the water pump drives are used then the index's should be lowered at min. a full tenth as thats what they are worth. Thats one reason why stock is so screwed up and expensive today. Rule change after rule change of some sort happening almost every week happening all over again. Get the name changed if thats what makes you happy but leave the up grading the rules to the IHRA or run a so called "stocker". IHRA used to have the two seperated many years ago but due to lack of participation the pure? stockers were included to give them a place to run instead of outlawing a class of racers.

Re: Junior Stock vs IHRA Pure Stock
 

OK I understand that..but we are always spending money on our beests.

But on my car, we are not allowed to use an Electric Water Pump but Stockers do.
Cool down is a pain and it would be a natural upgrade.

However allowing them would not be an expense for a Stocker to run PS.
Otherwise you would have to put a stock one on your car.
Just thinking of a natural way to allow a car to move in between.

The advantage for LT 1 engines is that the Water Pump Motors integrate with the WP and reliable to drive to the track.
Which is one feature PS is all about.

Do not think the Index would need to change, do not think there is a tenth. But if that is the common experience then so be it.

FWIW it would be a more reliable set up to manage heat making PS equally competitive to Stockers.

BTW hope your Thanksgiving was fun.

D

Re: Junior Stock vs IHRA Pure Stock
 

It dosent matter to me anymore anyway. I find that street rodding is more fun these days but maybe not as exciting as a high RPM launch. Just pointing out how some want to keep "Upgrading" things until you have what you have in todays stock elim. Now you have cars that were never lisenced or titled for the street running in the 8's with blowers !. Todays stockers are much wilder than the S/S cars of yesterday. Now you can even have aftermarket racing seats so other than the 9 inch tire your stuck with you have the SUPER STOCK LOOK of today.
Best way to go about it would be to contact IHRA's Mike Baker and get a list of pure stockers that have maintained their membership and car number the last few years and take a vote on who and how many want to up grade. Present it to Mike Baker and see how it goes. When I was racing Jr. stock until 1972 and later in S/S I found the elec waterpump drive to be worth a min of .10 to .12 after they were allowed on my 7200 RPM S/S (late 70's era) Chevy small block. Of course in todays S/S the same combo turns in excess of 9000 RPM due to "UpGrading. The higher the RPM range the more you gain due to the amount of HP required to turn the pump and push the water. That was with a water pump that had every other vane ground off to cut the resistance. You still need to have the specs for spring pressures, duration and overlap on the later combos which IHRA does not have for most if the class is to be what its supposed to be plus the knowledgeable tech crew required to check a cam and spring pressures at open and closed heights. Best way out is to eliminate the pure stocks all together and make them all "stockers". To much cheating going on anyway and not enough people to keep track of whats going on. Thats how the any torque converter and reground cams came to be in factory stock (or pure stock as its now called). Converters could be made by competent manufactures to make them do whatever was needed. It was hell checking the OEM cam shaft in some combos. Not enough hours in a week much less on a Friday or Sat, evening. Been there and done that.

Re: Junior Stock vs IHRA Pure Stock
 

I see I'm not the only one going old school.
Been running around with my 28 year old single wheel c.c. this year pulling my $ 2,500 cargo trailer. It's not even a real car hauler, but it works.
I would love to have a newer dually, but have decided to spend the money for now to build another '95 Mustang GT to run in P/SA.
90 % of the parts on that car will be used.

Anyone got a used 5.0 Stocker cam ? :D

http://i148.photobucket.com/albums/s...192012020b.jpg

Re: Junior Stock vs IHRA Pure Stock
 

this is my rig... got about 4000.00 in the truck... gave 2000.00 for the trailer in 2003.... They serve me well... i have generators and awnings....what more does a guy need? hehe...also, a 4 person tent!:D
Attachment 14473
Attachment 14474

Re: Junior Stock vs IHRA Pure Stock
 

But you are kind of making my point.
AND I will talk to Mike Baker he is a thoughtful person.

A while back made a suggestion about Certified Cams and Springs and Engines to simpify Tear down.

Suggested a roving Tear Down Specialist go to specific meeting places to Seal and Certifiy cars as legal.

This would improve race day efficiencies and more people would be modivated to set national records.
Mine got burried but still aiming to make one.

FWIW I drive not tow my car to all the races.
It is Street Legal and sometimes passes emmisions.
Have to retune it but it will pass with the Bullet PS Cam.
Yeah it does have a Yank converter with Lock up.
In fact with street radials, using Belsteins it makes a great Autocross car.

In that sense I am meeting the concept of a Street can become racer.
Cost are lower than most racer, mileage near 20mpg, small foot print at the racetrack, do have to be fit to change tires.
The trunk is so big I can carry everything I need to race.

I get the fact that Stock is a bigger tire, valve trane and cam to Super Stock.
The fact that prepared Factory Hotrods can be bought race ready again, except this time it is not a (wink wink) hidden secret.

I think IHRA has thoughtfully considered what Stock today should be.
Like the fact you can put a V8 in a Vega or Maverick.
Smart moves to expand the base of cars over the more popular cars like Camaro and Mustangs.

I wrote a full page opinion in Super Stock Drag Illustrated way back when about Stock and updating the class for the future.

Interesting IHRA probably already thinking in that direction did 90% of what I suggested.

Dan


BTW I thank you for opinion you are giving me valid feedback.

Re: Junior Stock vs IHRA Pure Stock
 

nice !!

Re: Junior Stock vs IHRA Pure Stock
 

Good luck Dan. ANYTHING that would make more racers jump in with both feet would be a help. Factory stock or Pure stock has been pretty dead after all that was done in the years past to satisfy the players. Nothing much seemed to help bring in more entries. Like the idea of certified cams as tear down for a cam check is a pain in the butt.

Re: Junior Stock vs IHRA Pure Stock
 

Nice looking rig Brent !

I've always liked that body style Chevy Duallie.

Here's my outfit for next year for the 2-3 day events.
Paid 2500 for the truck and 3500 for the lightweight slide-in camper.

http://i148.photobucket.com/albums/s...g18pics002.jpg

Re: Junior Stock vs IHRA Pure Stock
 

Hello X-tech welcome back.......I am a fan but I like this idea of pure stock. How about a street stock for division level based on the legal street races they have on Friday nights. Car has to be street legal to state laws just a dial in so you won't have to have major teardown and inspections. That may bring in the younger car crowd and older guys that don't want to chase the major races.

Re: Junior Stock vs IHRA Pure Stock
 

Cool! i wont lie... i do want a covered trailer, but, its not really in the budget right now... Gettin started on my 400 stocker combo is gonna cost some bucks, so the trailer will have to wait. Maybe in a year or two,,, i dont want any payments, so it'll make it easier to make it to some points meets. Im hoping to start in 2014, and run 2 or 3 of them. As long as i run under the index .4 or .5, i will make a few of them. I cant wait... i know stock is kinda screwed up, but, im gonna try to live the dream my own way...

Re: Junior Stock vs IHRA Pure Stock
 

THanks Dan!

Re: Junior Stock vs IHRA Pure Stock
 

Well for the most part that is what Pure Stock is!
Just think IHRA needs new blood and should consider adding European and Asian built cars to the mix.
Considering the volume of these vehicles sold.

Toyota trucks have a US like OHV engine in their trucks.
Be cool if the offered it in one of their RWD sedans.

It was be a good launching point and bring more cars to the races.
May spurn a more local Stock racing.

Getting any car prepared should take a few mods to run near the index.
Not suppose to be so easy as to buy a car and then go to the races and be competive.

Heck every car maker already has a Bolt On Mods market.
Which is the nature of Pure Stock.
Sure would bolster the aftermarket to meet this new demand.

Kind of like X-Mans idea of the Factory Stock concept vs Pure Stock.
Just somehow think that PS is the wrong term to use....
Hense going back to the Junior Stock term..
Factory Stock seems to me a better fit.

The thing is that if IHRA wants to compete for Drag Racing space they need to think how to attract racers away from NHRA.
Or attract racers that NHRA ignores and without creating another class.

Simplification of the Tear Down process is key.
NHRA makes it draconian.
Certification and Verification of Parts.
Go back to Street Gasoline, eliminate having to store race gas.
If you want to set a record..ok use the Race gas.

Make racing more fun...instead of a drudgery.

Dan

Re: Junior Stock vs IHRA Pure Stock
 

Dan,

Just a couple thoughts here.

First you would need to expand the class or add more weight breaks. That was my original intent with our FWD Olds, it misses the lowest weight break. The class needs to encompass the same weight breaks "Stock" has to allow the broadest range of participation.

Next would be to look at the current rules and determine what changes could be made that would make sense from not only a cost perspective but a common sense perspective as well. I'd personally like to see the muffler rule "with headers", done away with. Unless the intent with this is to be a street car driven to the track class?

I like the concept of Pure Stock. Just like regular "Stock", it favors the faster RWD cars.

Re: Junior Stock vs IHRA Pure Stock
 

Did you have a gun to the guy's temple? I want you shopping for me! Great looking rig. CR