superstock hemi heads
 

i see that NHRA clarified the rules on cylinder heads for stock &superstock just wondering if this clears up what you are allowed legally to hemi heads i know there was a lot of discussion a while back

Re: superstock hemi heads
 

Would you happen to have a link...also heard that CW made a formal protest to NHRA about some of the Hemi cylinder heads RB were using...I don't know all of the details or if it has been settled yet, but if anyone here know whats going on, please fill us in...


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Re: superstock hemi heads
 

I sure hope they get this squared away soon….
http://i738.photobucket.com/albums/x...y/IMG_0288.jpg

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Here's today's installment of 'As The World Turns' soap story continues...I got an interesting private message from Mr. X today...so is there any truth to this rumor.

Quote: I've heard the issue is one of the teams (I believe it is RB) is milling the intake surface of the heads so much there is only 1/2 of the valve cover bolt hole remaining. They then put an adapter on the intake surface that the valve cover will lay on; there's only a couple of bolts holding the valve cover on. The adapter is akin to using a bolt on / extended exhaust port. On the intake side, the adapter will allow taller / straighter ports. That's the story I've heard! Those SS/AH guys have ego's I don't want to be around!

Re: superstock hemi heads
 

That is the exact opposite of my experience.

Re: superstock hemi heads
 

John did u buy Marvell's car ? Chuck

Re: superstock hemi heads
 

Yes, thats the old Bob Reed/ Parham, O.D. Powell/ Bucky Hess/ Marvel Cuda. For the eliminator, not the shoot outs, LOL!

And Chuck, PM sent

Re: superstock hemi heads
 

The drama continues. Just how much can be relocated on a motor. Just how much can be relocated on a car. Just how much can be relocated on your wallet or purse. NHRA shares some of the blame here. It was allowed to get out of bounds, but in NHRA's defense, it is like trying to ride a bull without a rope. People been relocating stuff on the Darts and Cuda's for most of my adult life, and I'm 69 going on 92. So what you have is a Pro Stock car wrapped in a 68 Cuda or Dart. For Indy the few that get in have already worn out their stuff on class. I know at some races, the AH guys are asked if they are going to run or not during the eliminator. Then you got 482 byes, or maybe 29. Depends. If a list was started of the things allowed were started today, Pomona would get here first. Might be a winter project for the forum, keep your mind fresh, and your concentration up for stuff you might like to relocate on your Pure Stocker.

Re: superstock hemi heads
 

This is not my opinion, I was just posting a PM that I received after asking a question...but I must admit that it's a very competitive class and I'm sure there is lots of accusations being thrown around at every race from time to time.

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I think the rule is as clear as it can get. It has been clear for as long as the rule has been in place. The only problem is that it wasnt enforced.
As a Stock & SuperStock cylinder head guy i think the rule needs to be taken as is and the subject needs to be dropped.NHRA has done there job on making this rule clear and now they just need to enforce it and stay within the guidlines and wording!!! Its pretty cut and dry guys.

No Disrespect to anyone but lets move on and let the chips fall where they may!

Re: superstock hemi heads
 

Thats exactly the response I would expect from a head porter, the only ones to gain anything in this. I like to figure where the chips will fall before someone knocks the pile over

As Jeff Teuton has stated, NHRA has not enforced this rule for too long. You can't tell everyone running RB, CW, MCH or VED heads that they are illegal now. You need new heads. This is why I tried to difuse this fire before it escalated into this. If your VC threads are cut into on the intake side, your sh!ts illegal…

I know someone with 2 AH cars, selling 4 AH engines. Suddenly all your sh!ts illegal! And it goes past AH. I know of a fast SS/DA car out in washington state. Bam- your sh!ts illegal. Spend $20k+ per engine to add .020 to .125" to the intake face. And as far as the valvetrain stabilizer, CW already had it figured what he needs to do to move those internal. Just send $

The other problem is where would all the new castings come from for all the heads to be replaced. Thats alot of heads. I have 3 sets of castings new in boxes. Maybe I am wrong with my $20k cyl head legalizing. What r new castings worth now? $$$.

And as stated earlier, my SS/DA stuff is legal to the rules. I have 4 sets VED (the most conservative of the bunch) and one set of RB Oval in my shop, so I kind of have a stake in this and something to lose/gain also. The rule needs to be addressed and we all move on I agree. Telling everyone suddenly the parts you have been running for the last five to ten years is now illegal is not the answer. Can you say Class Killer…

On this Thanksgiving Day I am very thankful for SS/AH and dont want to see it die a slow agonizing death. I just hope NHRA agrees

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RB, CW, MCH or VED heads are not all illegal, only one brand as far as I know. Not all heads in the class are illegal. The heads cant be milled into the V/C bolt at the gasket surface, thats the line that you cant cross. Its been that way since before I started racing in 1991. This isnt a big deal to anyone other than the ones that do business with someone who cant read the rules. As I told you on the phone when you called, either 6 or so people have to buy new heads, or the whole class will have to buy new one to compete with the cheaters. If they didnt enforce this rule, I would have showed you how to get creative when I milled the head till I got to the valve guide, and put a 2 inch spacer on it. I mean if you can get into the bolt, then where do you stop?

I wish everyone luck next weekend at gainsville. Now that the record is a minimum, someone new will be in teardown as we will not be there.
That brings up another point I made, my dad an I are the only cars that have been torn down at a hemi shootout for the last 3 years so this stuff has been under a towel for who knows how long.

happy Thanksgiving from the MILITIA
cw

Re: superstock hemi heads
 

And as I told everyone except for Dave Visner, I Hope I am reading this wrong, LOL!

From NHRA rulebook:

Intake side of head may not be cut into ANY PART of valve cover bolt holes. Valve cover bolt holes must remain unaltered and in their original location.



And this kind of proves my point how long this has gone on.

I can't tell you whose heads are legal or aren't and that really doesn't affect me. That is NHRA's job. What I can tell you is the current generation of heads are cut into the vc bolt hole. I didn't want to stir the pot here. All I want is to be told what is and isn't legal so I can move forward with my 2013 plans. I like to have my stuff ready to race by Jan 1. That will not happen this year.

Re: superstock hemi heads
 

Originally Posted by charlie westcott
The heads cant be milled into the V/C bolt at the gasket surface, thats the line that you cant cross. Its been that way since before I started racing in 1991.
cw

Are they talking about the gasket surface at the valve cover, or the gasket surface on the intake gasket?

Re: superstock hemi heads
 

Mark, rule says intake side may not be cut into any part of the vc bolt hole. Not valve cover surface. If this is what they meant this is the way it needs to be written.

Re: superstock hemi heads
 

Part of the problem is the intake face on a Hemi is not at a 90 degree angle to the valve cover surface so the threads of the valve cover bolt breaks through at the bottom of the threads before you are close at the valve cover .

A simple wording of "valve cover bolt hole at the valve cover rail" would in fact keep a majority of the heads legal, BUT- why should some heads be exempt and some be outlawed?

All the heads have gone through tech. Legal yesterday but not today. The heads that are milled into the bolt at the rail need a spacer greater than what is milled to be legal and port volumes adjusted to correct cc's. No new Heads
can be built this way. Old heads grandfathered in.

Like Eric Jones stated " a few thousandths one way or the other isn't going to kill the head"

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Are there any plans for the parties involved to sit down with NHRA and have a pow-wow, because this can't go on it will only hurt the class the drivers & owners involved and especially the fans!!!

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I really don't know why anybody would argue this with Charlie. He likely knows and has seen more of whats going on than anybody.

Besides, as he said, this rule has been in the book and accepted for ever. A lot older than 1991.

It also affects all other engines (Chevys for sure) too.

As Charlie said, "where do you stop milling??" at the valve guide??

The cylinder head guys (the majority) have honoured this rule to date, so it is what it is.

FJ

Re: superstock hemi heads
 

FJ, that is why the first call I made regarding this subject was to confirm that NHRA told John Gulius this was not allowed on a sbc…

Intake side of head may not be cut into ANY PART of valve cover bolt holes

Maybe "Any" means valve cover rail…(sarcasm)

I hope I'm wrong as I'll have 5 sets of heads I can use on my SS/DA and AH car and not have to spend money as I planned to do having a new set done to legal specs with the valve cover bolt un-exposed. The 5 sets are much, much better than the legal set on the SS/DA car right now.

But this fight is really between the two major Hemi Builders. I'm just in search of the truth as I like to push the rules right to the limit but not over...

Re: superstock hemi heads
 

Man, you can over-complicate this.

Best you look up the dimensions of a bolt, any bolt. It is the major diameter of the bolt (or threaded hole) that you can't cut into.

Yes, this started with the hemi heads, but it affects everybody. The Chevy heads are right there as far as being cut.....have been for years.

Simple rule .

FJ

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I just don't get what is so hard to understand here.

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FJ, you just contradicted yourself with your two posts.

I was being sarcastic with my question as to what ANY PART means!

Alot of people don't understand whats really going on here. Next week after gainesville you may understand why Pizza Joe started this thread. And it wasn't on my behalf.

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3
Any prediction on who gets the record and the time? Chuck

Re: superstock hemi heads
 

john i dont know if you know but i sold all my stuff the man who bought it will be down next week and if i have to i will make it right to him i wont turn my back on him no other reason for starting this thread but we will see in a few days anyway joe

Re: superstock hemi heads
 

Joe, yes I know that. I was hoping this thread died initially because this subject is something that needs to be settled behind closed doors with key people and not out in a public forum. I hope I'm wrong here and as I've stated, I'd rather find a solution for ALL than point fingers.

Chuck, I hope it rains down there and snows up here and the roads are impassible, LOL. I predict it could be ugly and am glad I'll be up north here!!

And, FJ, I was thinking your first post was stirring the pot. I realized since that you are not involved. I meant no disrespect to you and consider your chassis skills among the greatest out there.

Re: superstock hemi heads
 

Aren't the valve cover bolt holes on a Hemi to the inside of the gasket rail? Here's a picture on the following website to show what I am talking about.

http://www.dvorakmachine.com/HemiRockerStands.shtml

If that is the case, then the entire gasket rail would be totally cut off on the intake side to reach the valve cover bolt holes. I can see where that would be an issue when someone building hemi heads cuts the head back far enough to remove the gasket rail and the valve cover gasket has to be seated to the intake manifold or to an added spacer. That is just flat wrong and any head modified like that should be DQ'd.

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http://www.dvorakmachine.com/photos/...rStandsTop.jpg

http://raybarton.com/parts/media/cat.../s5ah-0007.jpg

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Until I saw the picture of the position of the VC bolts I could not understand what all the fuss was about. Now I can agree with those who want the heads disqualified.

NHRA needs to enforce the rule.

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Just wondering, so has this issue been settled yet...:confused:

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I talked to Bruce yesterday,he said he would make final decision Monday (Jan 14) Chuck

Re: superstock hemi heads
 

He said that there would be 4or 5 guys involved in the final decision

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Has anybody heard the final decision on the superstock cylinder head fiasco ?

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CW posted the latest news on Moparts.559,559M,559M-1 heads will be allowed to break thru at the intake flange surface,but the hole at the top(v/c gasket surface) must remain intact and in stock location.Heads already milled into the bolt hole need to be replaced. Check his post on Moparts to be sure I got it correct.

Re: superstock hemi heads
 

Here's the link to the Moparts post Dana referenced....

http://board.moparts.org/ubbthreads/...0&fpart=2&vc=1

Re: superstock hemi heads
 

"Except" Pg. 11

No wonder we are 40 down..........

Re: superstock hemi heads
 

RB, CW, MCH or VED heads are not all illegal, only one brand as far as I know. Not all heads in the class are illegal. The heads cant be milled into the V/C bolt at the gasket surface, thats the line that you cant cross. Its been that way since before I started racing in 1991. This isnt a big deal to anyone other than the ones that do business with someone who cant read the rules. As I told you on the phone when you called, either 6 or so people have to buy new heads, or the whole class will have to buy new one to compete with the cheaters. If they didnt enforce this rule, I would have showed you how to get creative when I milled the head till I got to the valve guide, and put a 2 inch spacer on it. I mean if you can get into the bolt, then where do you stop?

I wish everyone luck next weekend at gainsville. Now that the record is a minimum, someone new will be in teardown as we will not be there.
That brings up another point I made, my dad an I are the only cars that have been torn down at a hemi shootout for the last 3 years so this stuff has been under a towel for who knows how long.

happy Thanksgiving from the MILITIA
cw



cant wait to see you show up with a fe hemi charlie!!!!

Re: superstock hemi heads
 

It's a sad day at Black Hawk Hemiland. I http://board.moparts.org/ubbthreads/...lins/scope.gif owe my Reher Morrison team an apology. After each race I would light 'em up because we were a tenth down. I would use software to synthesize the audios from the faster Hatfield & McCoy (H&C)team cars. We knew their shift points, leave rpm, powerband and still could not compete. Darin Morgan must have been frustrated as he said our heads, which are not in the VC bolt ANYWHERE!!(like the rule said), are sonic locked at 8600. BUT H&C cars are 1500 rpm higher than us???? and making power??? ARGH! WE MISSED THE MEETING WHERE SINCE 1991 THE TOP RAIL WAS THE BOUNDARY. Meanwhile since I have had incorrect carb boosters, pinned freeze plugs (external mod) and 1/4X20 bolts etc etc I am the designated CHEATER.

Well, I am normally happy-go-lucky but since I http://board.moparts.org/ubbthreads/...lins/scope.gif was born on the change day for Taurus & Gemini, there are three of me in here. One of 'em is PO'ed. I will run Belle Rose so my buddies can see a Chootout and will lose first round to one of my many Hemi friends with heads that are much faster than mine.

ONE & DONE
This class is in trouble.

On to the Super Cars. I bet R&M can make a new COPO "STAND ON ONE TIRE AND BARK LIKE A DOG".

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The N.H.R.A. has a habit of screwing stuff up, don't they.

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cant wait to see you show up with a fe hemi charlie!!!!

Its in the works.
look out now.
cw