No AFHS for National Open @gainsville
 

Let's see who really really lets it all hang out and takes all the weight out of there cars... :D

Re: No AFHS for National Open @gainsville
 

Are they running class at this event? Record runs?

Re: No AFHS for National Open @gainsville
 

no class RO's. Nat opens are where the RACERS set records! this has been an on goin thing for a while about setting records or running fast as you can in class and not getting hit with HP....
There will be alot of them taking the block of wood from behind the pedal this go around..

Re: No AFHS for National Open @gainsville
 

Stephen, at National opens if go more than 1.20 under you get Hp. but runs don`t count on your average`s. Tom

Re: No AFHS for National Open @gainsville
 

tom , the reason why i made this post is because i got an email that the AFHS is not goin to count for this race..it was voted not to count against ya!!!!!!!!

Re: No AFHS for National Open @gainsville
 

Stephen, sounds like a combo race not a NHRA Open with record runs.Tom

Re: No AFHS for National Open @gainsville
 

It is a national open with record runs. I believe there will be no normal AHFS but if you go more than 1.199 under you will get the instant hit. Whether you set a record or not.

Re: No AFHS for National Open @gainsville
 

No vote nessary, that is the way all national opens are run, no HP unless you go 1.20 under then you get the instant hit on monday or tuesday the next week! some combo's still need that block of wood under the pedal

Re: No AFHS for National Open @gainsville
 

Those of us that got the email from Mike Crutchfield........ It says NO AHFS, none zip, nada, take the lead out and and bomb the record 1.20 under be damned.

Re: No AFHS for National Open @gainsville
 

They may be saying the ahfs is not in play, but I would be very surprised if they will let a -1.20 run slide.

Re: No AFHS for National Open @gainsville
 

I don't think a 1.2 under run should slide. If you can run 1.2 under you do need some HP.

Re: No AFHS for National Open @gainsville
 

1.20 under used to be 1.50 under, it just doesn't sound so far under. Looking at the original Final Qualifying in SS at Indy, the whole field was 1.+ under taking into account the .30 NHRA took off.....who'da thunk? #128 Joe Tueton was 1.022 under with the previous indexes.

With the old mind set of indexes, I think no one would argue that 1.50 under (anywhere, anytime) was deserving of a hit.

Re: No AFHS for National Open @gainsville
 

When is this race? I would definately go if we can run more than 1.20 under and not get hit, just to set the record.

Re: No AFHS for National Open @gainsville
 

Since there appears to be quite a bit of confusion and uncertainty about the AHFS for this race; I would think that Mike Crutchfield is the person that can clear this up.

Re: No AFHS for National Open @gainsville
 

IF NHRA allows this they can just about say bye bye to me...

why would you pick any sanctioned event and not enforce the sanctioning bodies written rules ?????

captain
however IF any organization would do something this stupid it would be NHRA

Re: No AFHS for National Open @gainsville
 

I have to agree with you captian, nhra dont have our intrest in mind. They change the rules all the time. Why oh why do i still care?

Re: No AFHS for National Open @gainsville
 

[QUOTE=Jack McCarthy;346338]IF NHRA allows this they can just about say bye bye to me...

why would you pick any sanctioned event and not enforce the sanctioning bodies written rules ?????

Maybe they want to put a little fun and entertainment back in the class. I bet it gets a lot of attention that it wouldn't have otherwise .... if it is allowed.

Wish I could go, I'm all for it!

Tracy
(Carson's Dad)

Re: No AFHS for National Open @gainsville
 

Ed not to bust your balls but if you can't run 1.20 under or dam close in mine shaft air you need to go work on your car. And yes spend some more money. With all the different enhancements we have had the last few years I think you would be surprised on how many different combos can go that fast. Take a look at Indy and how many went 9 under. And there were a lot more that just didn't put it on kill once they felf they were in the show. Having said that you still need to keep the 1.20 under into play. If just wouldn't be fare to the rest of the opens that have. Most of the older cars have a hp rating that is pretty dam close to where they should be. Every now and than someone finds an older combo that runs like a truck. Now I would be in favor of lifting the 1.20 on all 1999 and older combo's. Lets face it it's the newer cars that aren't even close to the true hp ratings. Barry

Re: No AFHS for National Open @gainsville
 

Just a FYI, Please see the AHFS rule below. NHRA is following the rule as it is writen.
IT is very specific on which races and which runs count toward the AHFS. The date that Gainesville's race falls on is outside of the two evaluation periods and no where does it say anything about a National Open. Like it or not it is the rule as writen.

I think it will be a very interesting event and the weather should be great that time of the year in Florida. I urge you to come and enjoy yourself. Rich Schaefer has arranged it where you can park or drop off your rig on Wednesday and for anyone wanting to go on to PRI for the day can. The Division 2 Awards Banquet will be held on Sunday starting mid afternoon. Please contact the D2 office for details.

Thanks
MC








Automatic Horsepower Factoring System (AHFS) explained
The AHFS is used to review and evaluate runs in Stock and Super Stock for possible horsepower adjustments. The review is conducted twice per racing season. The two reviews are compiled individually so the data is not cumulative. Runs included in the AHFS database are limited to final qualifying runs (Q data) and all elimination runs (E data) at all NHRA National and LODRS events. (At events where class eliminations are run, all runs are included in the AHFS database. Only the first round of class is part of qualifying and therefore is part of the "Q" database.) The "Q" data and "E" data files are the official data gathered by the NHRA timing system and processed through the NHRA Information Technology department. NHRA "Q" data and "E" data are the only data files used for the AHFS.

The first review period includes data from National and LODRS events 1 through 11 and the second period includes runs from events 12 through 22. The following procedure is used in reviewing run data:

Final qualifying, class eliminations, and elimination runs of 1.00 seconds or more, under the index, at NHRA National and LODRS events will trigger an automatic review. (The combination must make at least two runs of 1.00 or quicker before a review is triggered to prevent a "one time fast run" from triggering the system.) In reviewing runs of 1.00 or more under the index, the database of runs for the engine combination being reviewed are put through three screenings as listed below. The screenings will look for an overall engine family average or class/engine average faster than 0.850-second under. Runs of .350 and slower are not included in calculating the engine or class/engine averages:
Engine family average: The overall engine average for all cars, regardless of class, running the particular engine combination being reviewed are included in this screening.
Class/engine average where engine is run: The class/engine average of the car running the specific combination in the class that triggered the review is studied.
Body style and transmission type: Also considered in the above two screening processes are body style of the engine combination being reviewed and transmission type. Adjustments are only in effect for the specific car model being evaluated. The body style are generally classified by the OEM auto manufacturers' definition of "platform", i.e., the Camaro and Firebird body are both based on the same platform and therefore considered the same with regard to body-style classification. In some instances, however, more than one body style will trigger a review. With regards to transmission type, if the class average triggers the review, the adjustment would be for classes with the type of transmission triggering the change. However, if an engine family average triggers the review, the adjustment would be for all transmission types.
If either the engine family average or the class/engine average are found to be faster than 0.850-second under, a change will be initiated.
To more clearly illustrate how the AHFS program affects a given combination, the following is a hypothetical evaluation in Stock class for a 305-cubic-inch, 215 factory rated horsepower, fuel-injected Camaro during a review period:

Two K/SA Camaros running this combination ran 1.114- and 1.187- second under the index, triggering a review. As per the procedure outlined above, the overall engine average is analyzed first. Upon reviewing the engine average made by the 305/215/241 FI combination, 10 runs had been recorded (2 in K/SA and 8 in L/SA) with a total engine average of .845-second under. Because the overall engine average did not hit the required 0.850 under, the combination did not warrant a horsepower adjustment based on overall engine average.

The next step, per the procedure outlined above, is a class/engine review. The class of the car that actually triggered the review was K/SA. The class review revealed that K/SA had a class/engine average for the combination in question of 1.101-second under, therefore surpassing the 0.850-second-under requirement and signaling a horsepower adjustment for all 305/215/241 FI Camaros.

An important element to note and one most often misunderstood by racers is that although a K/SA Camaro affected the change, the L/SA 305/215/241 FI Camaros that run this combination also received a horsepower adjustment. The reason is that a specific combination can run in more than one class based on NHRA rules; therefore, all cars with the specific engine combination, transmission and body style will be affected.

Once the need for an adjustment is determined, the following sliding-scale formula, based on a percentage of horsepower, is used to calculate the horsepower increase:

Under Index Horsepower Increase Index Change
1.000-1.099 1.25% -.05
1.100-1.199 2.25% -.10
1.200-1.249 3.25% -.15
(immediate change)
1.250-1.299 4.25% -.20 (immediate change)
1.300-1.349 5.25% -.25 (immediate change)
1.350-1.399 6.25% -.30 (immediate change)
1.400-1.449 7.25% -.35 (immediate change)
1.450- 1.499 8.25% -.40 (immediate change)
1.500- 1.549 9.25% -.45 (immediate change)
1.550- 1.599 10.25% -.50 (immediate change)
1.600- 1.649 11.25% -.55 (immediate change)
1.650- 1.699 12.25% -.60 (immediate change)
1.700- 1.749 13.25% -.65 (immediate change)
1.750- 1.799 14.25% -.70 (immediate change)
1.800- 1.849 15.25% -.75 (immediate change)
1.850- 1.899 16.25% -.80 (immediate change)
1.900- 1.949 17.25% -.85 (immediate change)
1.950- 1.999 18.25% -.90 (immediate change)



Adjustments are rounded up to the nearest full horsepower even if the fraction is below 0.5 horsepower. As an example, 2.15 horsepower is rounded to 3 horsepower. The quickest run, by the combination being reviewed, is used to determine the adjustment percentage.

Runs of 1.200 or more under the index will be reviewed and adjusted Tuesday following the event. Runs at all NHRA events, including those at altitude factored race tracks, are included in the 1.200-second-or-more-under analysis. This is done to better react to any out-of-line indexes or under-horsepowered combinations. Therefore, at all such events, a horsepower adjustment or index reduction will be initiated Tuesday following the event.
The decision to adjust horsepower or to reduce the index will be at the discretion of the NHRA Tech Department.


In addition to reviews resulting in a horsepower increase, a written request (only one request per competitor, per review period.) will trigger a review for the purpose of a decrease in horsepower factor or index adjustment. The request must include eliminator, year, model, engine size, advertised horsepower, factored horsepower, and class; to be eligible. Incomplete requests will not be reviewed.


The screenings will look for an overall engine family average less than 0.550-seconds under. Runs of 0.100-second under and slower are not included in calculating the engine average:

In addition, the combination must NOT make two runs of 0.650 or quicker for the review to continue or any run 0.850 or quicker.)

Engine family average: The overall engine average for all cars, regardless of class, running the particular engine combination being reviewed is included in this screening. If the engine family average is found to be slower than 0.550-second under, a change will be initiated.

To more clearly illustrate how the AHFS program affects a given combination, the following is a hypothetical evaluation in Stock Eliminator for a 305 cubic-inch, 150 factory rated horsepower, carbureted Camaro during a review period:


A written request triggered a review by the committee. As per the procedure outlined above, there were NOT 2 runs 0.650-second or quicker preventing a review or ANY run 0.850-second or quicker preventing a review. The overall engine average is analyzed next. Upon reviewing the engine average made by the combination, 10 runs had been recorded (2 in I/SA and 8 in J/SA) with a total engine average of 0.535-second under. Because the overall engine average did not hit the required 0.550-second under, the combination proceeds with the evaluation.


Once the need for an adjustment is determined, the following sliding-scale formula, based on a percentage of horsepower, is used to calculate the horsepower decrease:

Under Index Horsepower Decrease Index Change
0.166-quicker 1.25% +.05
0.101-0.165 2.25% +.10


Adjustments are rounded up to the nearest full horsepower even if the fraction is below 0.5 horsepower. As an example, 2.15 horsepower is rounded to 3 horsepower. The quickest run, by the combination being reviewed, is used to determine the adjustment percentage. The decision to adjust horsepower or to increase the index will be at the discretion on the AHFS Committee.

Re: No AFHS for National Open @gainsville
 

.....or as Len Imbrogno stated at its inception: "the simple AHFS formula"

Re: No AFHS for National Open @gainsville
 

Mike, You need to re read the rules for AFHS, all runs of -1.20 under at all NHRA events get hp on the next tuesday. Tom

Re: No AFHS for National Open @gainsville
 

Mike
You better get this in writing.This could really ruin some combos FOREVER if there is a penalty.I can see a bunch of old cars like mine get hit .That old q.jet loves air.

Re: No AFHS for National Open @gainsville
 

James those 350/255 hp combo's are so under rated. They should be at least 284. LOL

Re: No AFHS for National Open @gainsville
 

Bruce and I both agree, 1.20 under gets you hit. Now with both ends of the vast spectrum in agreement, it must be so. Who knows; the Republicans and Democrast might follow our lead on that.

Re: No AFHS for National Open @gainsville
 

The next thing you know a new Godzilla movie will be released in 2014.

Re: No AFHS for National Open @gainsville
 

Mike

The following paragraph is the one that will get a 1.20 + run automatic HP.


Runs of 1.200 or more under the index will be reviewed and adjusted Tuesday following the event. Runs at all NHRA events, including those at altitude factored race tracks, are included in the 1.200-second-or-more-under analysis. This is done to better react to any out-of-line indexes or under-horsepowered combinations. Therefore, at all such events, a horsepower adjustment or index reduction will be initiated Tuesday following the event.
The decision to adjust horsepower or to reduce the index will be at the discretion of the NHRA Tech Department.

Re: No AFHS for National Open @gainsville
 

A new Godzilla movie in 2014! It's about time, wait a minute......can't happen. I saw the movie 2012.

All you people out there worrying about going to far under. Just do your little petition thing and get NHRA to lower the indexes to fit your needs.

Even if the runs were not to be harnessed with the 1.20 thingy, it would be a great collection of data for the technical department to review. Who ever said that they need our permission to review data. They accept "data" from the manufacturers.

Anyway, do not worry about the AHFS thing, it will be all fixed. I saw the movie 2012

Ron Ortiz
U/SA I'm running all my credit cards to the limit and beyond. Saw a movie.

Re: No AFHS for National Open @gainsville
 

I would not be surprised to see this movie coming soon to a theater near you.

Re: No AFHS for National Open @gainsville
 

Ok, I will simplify it. Below is a excert from a email I received from the D2 Division director for me as a SRAC Member to send to my D2 STK/SS guys for there information. If there is any hidden message in it I can't see it. As I indicated earlier the belief is that the race falls outside of the reporting periods and the loop hole is being exercised.
Unless something changes this will be my last post on this issue because any further discussion would only be unfounded speculation.

Hope everyone enjoys there weekend.

MC



No AHFS at The Turkey Trot National Open.

Rich Schaefer

Re: No AFHS for National Open @gainsville
 

Sounds good Mike. I'll be there. It will make me look at the weather for Reynolds a bit closer before I leave home. Won't have to go to watch it rain.
I wish it didn't coincide with the PRI But when I weigh the options Race Car / PRI. The race car wins LOL.
Thanks Again

Re: No AFHS for National Open @gainsville
 

This is great news now there is a race that everybody can run all out, OH SH-T that's right it's only at this race! why? all races should and did count before so now we are going to start picking races at random!!! this is not right period...

Re: No AFHS for National Open @gainsville
 

It's not the only race. For one the CIC race at Belle Rose comes to mind.
Why would ir be a negative anyway?. It's not a go fast race. You still have to dial under.
You just don't have to be looking to pickup you time ticket while passing the 1,000' mark.

Re: No AFHS for National Open @gainsville
 

If you have a really fast car, go down there and see what happens the next week on Monday when you go 1.20 or more under.

Re: No AFHS for National Open @gainsville
 

Well I don't know if I can run that far under. But If Rich and Jim Collins tell me there's no AHFS I'll believe them and not worry about it. These are stand-up guys

Re: No AFHS for National Open @gainsville
 

Art, The CIC race at Bell Rose you can't set.records. Tom

Re: No AFHS for National Open @gainsville
 

But you can set records at during the day. Look up SS/GS

Re: No AFHS for National Open @gainsville
 

If you fuel check and weigh then it should count. The CIC race is not an NHRA event it's done by the track just like all the combo's that are not put on by NHRA, You can go as fast as you want at your local combo without penalty.

Re: No AFHS for National Open @gainsville
 

Why on earth are you guys against it? For years you could go to an altitude track and whack a record with virtually no chance of a hit. Before that for years records didn't count in the AHFS. I had some records that were way under.
So why not have a place you can go to a let it all hang out. If you can't run with the fast cars you aren't really going to hold a record long anyway.
I can't see how this hurts anyone? It might get quite a few cars down there.

AHFS= Automatic Help For Slugs

Re: No AFHS for National Open @gainsville
 

I'm not trying to start a ruckus, just wanted to understand why this seems to be an issue. Can someone explain the relationship between the Class Index and the National Record? How was the Index originally determined? I realize we just lost .30 recently, but can someone explain why?

If the National Record gets "hammered" at this event, what effect will that have on the Index next time someone try's to set the Record and has to trigger the AHFS to do it. Not that I'll have to worry about doing it, of course!

Lew

Re: No AFHS for National Open @gainsville
 

Bruce, I have every Godzilla movie ever made, and in English and Japanese, except for that thing in the 90's. That was not Godzilla. Do you know something I don't know?