A short continuation of my "VENT" before Indy !!
 

I had my petition at Indy and got quite a few signatures on it. I will bring it to the JEG’s race in Columbus as due to the shortened Indy event I didn’t get to some racers who wanted to sign it. Now some people on this site are talking about combining stick and automatic classes into one. It still is wrong. I’m sure it will happen soon, if we don’t make our voices heard. Free Speech you know.

If NHRA continues the “Combo” run-off, I think it should be off a dial-in not off the indexes. See the Combo Race at Indy, where in the automatic class a truck ran at 1.55 under the index and in the stick class a J/S was a second under. Other cars had no chance to run against them unless they would break or red light. (I know that’s the case in any match-up but Really!)

Find me in Columbus or I can find you to sign my petition in an attempt to be heard to stop the way NHRA is insisting on doing this “COMBO” RACE.

Re: A short continuation of my "VENT" before Indy !!
 

Sounds like another attempt to water down a performanced based eliminator. Just move your car up or down to a class that has another car if possible. Combo problem solved.

Re: A short continuation of my "VENT" before Indy !!
 

In no way should class ever be a dial in. Don't matter if they are a combo or not.

Re: A short continuation of my "VENT" before Indy !!
 

Run everything off index heads up. Lol. Even though I like that idea costs would really skyrocket then and that's mostly everyone's biggest complaint is costs.

Re: A short continuation of my "VENT" before Indy !!
 

I didn't like being called a "cry baby" so I really don't want to use that term.
But If you want combo to run off of dial ins. Thats exactly what it is. The truck was not in the combo class.
I suggest you do some serious bracket racing (level playing field). And leave class racing to others.
Just My Opinion.

Re: A short continuation of my "VENT" before Indy !!
 

There are other racing organizations that you can be a part of. Or you can work on your combination to make it faster.

Re: A short continuation of my "VENT" before Indy !!
 

I think that at Indy, which is the NHRA's premier event, they ought to can the combo and have byes for class. It is not the racer's fault if no one else shows up in his or her class. If the manufacturers don't want to pay for a bye, stipulate no contingencies for byes but you'll get the Wally and Indy Class Winner status, My .02.

Re: A short continuation of my "VENT" before Indy !!
 

i agree with this, at a minimum

Re: A short continuation of my "VENT" before Indy !!
 

Bob the main reason for the combos was to save trophies. It was touted as helping the racers to get more contingency money. Lies plain and simple.
Has contingency money for class go up one dime?
Do you realize how many trophies the didn't have to give out?

Re: A short continuation of my "VENT" before Indy !!
 

I agree with Bob Don 100%. If you want to run for the $ in the Combo then do so. Other wise it would be great to win class , either against someone or a single. Very proud of class win either way. NHRA may get more entries and more $ if they would do this where they run class .

Re: A short continuation of my "VENT" before Indy !!
 

I want to run class,no break out,whether heads up or with handicap.There are some combo series I could go run but they don't have heads up races,so I just as soon stay close to home and run bracket,without heads up might as well bracket race.

Mike Taylor 3601

Re: A short continuation of my "VENT" before Indy !!
 

About 85% of races in super stock and stock are dial ins. I fail to see the performance factor in that.

Re: A short continuation of my "VENT" before Indy !!
 

I don't know if this is a stupid question but why did they go away from running the eliminator off national records and began with indexes ect...? Was the sport becoming too expensive to run like that and the same guys won all the time or was a drastic change needed to bring more racers into this sport at the time? i think that must to been great to race like that back then because not only did you have to be a class racer to win class but the eliminator also, wouldnt it be great if we didnt need to dial in again!! I don't know if this is the appropriate thread to have this on but everyone seems to be in favor of stock and super stock being a performance based class so my question to you all is why are we bracket racing our expensive race cars for next to no money in purses and half the wally's now due to combining singles i personally think stock and super stock needs a complete makeover to maybe go back to the grass roots of the classes that obvioustly made so many of you happy back then as i doubt this much complaining went on back then. I know that the new cars would be hard to beat if we went off record runs but through proper research and factoring in this makeover they would be in the right classes from the beginning its just a matter of NHRA willing to go that extra mile for us as a whole, make things right again and see the car counts exceed the their expectations, all i know is that changing back to the way things used to be can't be any worse than it is now.

Re: A short continuation of my "VENT" before Indy !!
 

It doesn't cost anything to NOT WIN class. You pay the same to race if there is class or not.

Re: A short continuation of my "VENT" before Indy !!
 

It would be nice to be able to run "heads-up" in every class. And it would be nice to be able to run against the index during eliminations. But until we figure out a way to accurately and realistically factor all the possible combinations in the Classification Guide, what's the point? How long do we have to wait for the AHFS to bring us to parity? How long would you continue to race if you continually got beat by the same combination?

If this is supposed to be a performance based eliminator, that's fine. If you can legitimately run 1-second or more under your class index without having a unfair horsepower advantage, more power to you. (Pun intended!)

Lew

Re: A short continuation of my "VENT" before Indy !!
 

I'd like to hear your opinion as to why stick & auto racers should not run one another in the same class? "Don't like it" isn't reason enough in my opinion. Make your case!

Re: A short continuation of my "VENT" before Indy !!
 

Aren't we talking about racing for class?

Re: A short continuation of my "VENT" before Indy !!
 

It is not what some people on class racer think. It is what NHRA thinks.

Re: A short continuation of my "VENT" before Indy !!
 

I guess I'm not getting a sense here on this forum of what is right or wrong with NHRA sanctioned "Combo" races"; i.e., having individual competitors race one another for the Stick or auto class win in the absence of fellow competitors.

I understand why NHRA and MAYBE some contingency sponsors want a Combo race. It appears they are not happy with awarding trophies and or cash to those entrants not facing competition in their respective class.
Correct me if I'm wrong but as I understand it, NHRA has the program presently structured so there are only (4) events per year with Class runoffs.

Initially, this seems like a good solution; if NHRA & the contingency sponsors actually thought there was a problem out there. I'm of the impression the racers had an opposite opinion.

The problem that arises is one builds a car to be competitive in a particular class. And as racers have always said, "not my fault my fellow competitors didn't make it to the show". Or maybe there's not another competitor in the country. The bottom line is, a racer builds a car that is allowable per the rulebook. Whether anybody else follows suit is not his problem.
But let's say you build the baddest SS car in the country given what you have to work with. And it's a '60's muscle car. It runs 1.15 under, maybe 11.00's. It's been torn down so many times that the block needs help-coils in every hole. He's at the top of the class and nobody can touch him.
And in a combo race it would seem he should be racing cars that are at least similar. But in a combo race, he get's paired against something with a turbo or super charger, or a RWD conversion car, but basically, something that is not even remotely resembling what the racer built his car to compete in and against those in his respective class. It's not a bracket race so shoe polish isn't an issue. It's heads up. The issue is one guy built a car to be competitive in his class and is forced to race cars that are not even remotely in his class. Other than to say they were all built with the intention to go down a 1/4 mile as quickly as possible.

So given that disparity, my view is that if there is less chance of singletons, then there is a better chance of not having to deal with the disparity of a Combo race. For that I see combining sticks and autos as a proposal that makes sense. That would cut the classes roughly in half and far less single runs for Class. As I stated elsewhere, use the auto index, the stick index or split it down the middle. HP adjustments will still fall into the AHFS and as I see it, some may hit the AHFS sooner than later if faced with more competition.

Just an idea and if somebody has a viable alternative or doesn't like the idea of combining sticks and auto's, I'd like to hear them. And I know at least one manufacturer of new age drag cars is in agreement with me. They want the sticks and autos combined and don't agree with combo races. I'm sensing some of the other manufacturers have the same opinion. I recently calculated and posted here that approximately 12%-14% of NHRA S/SS racers compete with a stick.

Re: A short continuation of my "VENT" before Indy !!
 

I will make it simple Jeff. Class has nothing to do with the eliminator in 2012 and on.

Re: A short continuation of my "VENT" before Indy !!
 

So are we saying that there is NO performance advantage to racing a stick over an automatic (or vice versa)? And after we "combine" all of the like-factored vehicles into one class, what do we do when a single vehicle does enter an event where Class Eliminations are being contested?

If the reason that the "Combo" programs were started was as Jeff said, to economize on the expenditures for trophies and contingencies payments, then how about a frame-able certificate for all of the regular class winners. Keep giving the "special classes" and Stock Eliminator winners the "Wally". And isn't a product purchase and usage required to collect a contingency payment from the Manufacturer? What does it matter how many cars are in a certain class if you're using and advertising a Manufacturer's product?

Why are we (they) complicating this?

Re: A short continuation of my "VENT" before Indy !!
 

To answer your question about the advantage It depends greatly on each combination. In my case 4 cyl FWD. If I put in a manual trans I would pick up from .3 to .5 (thats tenths not hundreths) With a manual I can get a 4.12 final drive ratio. With the automatic the best (other than custom one of gears) . I can use is 3.72.
NHRA is blaming the combo classes on the manufacturers. But in real life it's about saving trophies. They fail to realize a lot of cars (at over $300 a car) don't show because of their desision.

Re: A short continuation of my "VENT" before Indy !!
 

If you go through the Nitro Joe stats, you will see a majority of classes that differentiate between the auto and stick trans by class, the auto trans racers are the quickest of the two.

Re: A short continuation of my "VENT" before Indy !!
 

One of the main reasons for that is a lot more people race automatics, plus they are more likely to have heads up, so they need to spend the money to go faster.

I have no problem combining automatics with sticks, but if they do, they need to get a few of the horsepower factors in line (i.e. LS1).

Re: A short continuation of my "VENT" before Indy !!
 

This thread is just another reminder that you will never get enough people to agree on something to get it done. Since I've been on CL I've seen tons of ideas about all kinds of things. Its always the same some for it most against it and the rest just don't care. I just don't see anything ever getting done. Debating ideas is always good but there never is a consensus on anything proposed. My .02

Re: A short continuation of my "VENT" before Indy !!
 

Still trying to wrap my mind around the idea that auto trans are faster than stick.
Why did Wescott go to stick then?

Re: A short continuation of my "VENT" before Indy !!
 

Seems to me the AH cars got less HP with the stick therefore lighter weight. No Brainer. With all the e-shift autos and air shifters any monkey can drive an automatic just stab and steer.

Re: A short continuation of my "VENT" before Indy !!
 

The AH cars have the same rating for the auto as the stick, that is why I used them as a example.

Re: A short continuation of my "VENT" before Indy !!
 

Did I miss a memo from Glendale? I know we get a 3-speed next year!;)

Lew
(definitely NOT a monkey!)

Re: A short continuation of my "VENT" before Indy !!
 

Did any guys that signed this race that weekend? What person in their right mind who loves class racing would sign this crap? Class and dial in should never be mentioned in the same sentence.


QUOTE=louie conkey;346142]I had my petition at Indy and got quite a few signatures on it. I will bring it to the JEG’s race in Columbus as due to the shortened Indy event I didn’t get to some racers who wanted to sign it. Now some people on this site are talking about combining stick and automatic classes into one. It still is wrong. I’m sure it will happen soon, if we don’t make our voices heard. Free Speech you know.

If NHRA continues the “Combo” run-off, I think it should be off a dial-in not off the indexes. See the Combo Race at Indy, where in the automatic class a truck ran at 1.55 under the index and in the stick class a J/S was a second under. Other cars had no chance to run against them unless they would break or red light. (I know that’s the case in any match-up but Really!)

Find me in Columbus or I can find you to sign my petition in an attempt to be heard to stop the way NHRA is insisting on doing this “COMBO” RACE.[/QUOTE]

Re: A short continuation of my "VENT" before Indy !!
 

[/QUOTE]

I believe the original intent of the petition was to award trophies for class singles. I don't believe it had anything to do with dial ins.