Fuel check question
 

I have a question.

A bunch of us were having issues with fuel at a Division race in Sonoma. A few I believe were DQd a few on the edge. We were told to add some fresh, replace with fresh all that good stuff.

I bought some fresh fuel right out of a sealed barrel. Took it up and had it tested. I was told it was perfect. I asked what perfect was, and was told that it was right in the middle of the scale for the temperature.

If when a fuel goes stale or loses it's light ends from sitting in the car too long my question is this.

Why does fresh brand new fuel start out at the middle of the scale and not toward or at the top???

If going bad from sitting or you got the last 5 from the bottom of the barrel usually equates to flirting with the bottom of the scale, shouldn't fresh fuel start life at the top of the scale?

Re: Fuel check question
 

Great point! Can't wait for the answer. Jim


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Re: Fuel check question
 

When I worked for NHRA in the 80`s I did fuel check. The numbers should run in the middle. Low numbers means fuel is old and losing its octane. High numbers means there is more then just racing fuel in there. I think NHRA should throw out the low numbers, if the fuel is old and bad it does not make the car go faster. They have always tested like that. Hope that helped or Im just full of *****........:eek:

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Whether or not that was helpful, you still might be full of *****! Ha ha!

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I went to the PRI show in Orlando and asked the Sunoco technical representitives how long the shelf live is on their racing fuel. They told me 1.5 to 2 years. With that said, I went to a race with fuel that was about 1 year old, it had lost it's color purple. I told the NHRA fuel check person that I was claiming Sunoco purple, well it passed the fuel check, but he told me to add some fresher fuel with color so that he can recognize it by the color. The car ran the same with the older fuel as well as with the fresher fuel.

Casey Miles
248H "F" NHRA Stock!

Re: Fuel check question
 

Yeah, but even when you buy " fresh" gas, how long was it sitting in their drum ???

I got a bad reading from Englishtown last year & they said, give me another sample
& the second sample passed.

If no one else believes you Bender, I believe ya.......


Pistol Pete
1374
I/SA

Re: Fuel check question
 

I've had Sunoco sit in a vented fuel cell and in jugs over the winter, go racing and never have a problem in fuel check. It's pretty stable stuff. On the flip side, VP has a high "pop off" rate. The fuel check guy at Atlanta told me the best thing to do would be to drain the fuel cell each week and put the fuel back in a sealed container, or at least plug the fuel cell vent. Seriously?

You know it's volatile stuff when we've generated a habit of holding our hand over the cup while waiting in the fuel check line. :rolleyes:

And for those that didn't read the Atlanta thread, beware purchasing any 112 octane blue VP at your local bracket track. It's not on the approved fuels list, and it doesn't check as anything. The southeast VP rep said it is something they formulated that's "close" to Sunoco Blue, but a little different in this spec or that, and they just sell it to the bracket tracks. Why have a readily available fuel and not have it on the list?

Re: Fuel check question
 

We've had the opposite effect. I have not had good luck with Sunoco checking in recent years. I have bought from tracks and sealed drums. Each time I take Sunoco to fuel check it is a problem. I have had great luck with VP C-12. After laying in the sand at Atco last year in 90 degree weather draining the sunoco and wasting gallons of C-12 trying to flush the system I think I 'm just going to stay with VP for now. For the amount of bracket racing I do...I would love to just run Sunoco at the cheaper price, but I don't want to switch the car back each time I want to race stock. Has anyone else had issues getting Sunoco purple or Blue to pass?

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I bought fresh Sunoco purple at Numidia last year and went to Englishtown the following week and it failed fuel check at the Supernationals. I put in 2 year old Sunoco purple and it passed (Brian Bachedler said it was "dead on").

I'm all for what Bob Bender was saying - let anyone who fails on the low side race. They're not gaining anything.

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Bob, What end of the scale would $3.00 pump gas read on? Av gas? That could be your answer right there...

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I was DQed 3 times with C-12 so I switched to C-11 and that passed, but I did
not like the price, so I switched to Sunoco purple. Every national event since I
was told that it checks borderline at the bottom and to mix with fresh fuel. this
is fresh fuel. The exact same fuel after setting all week in the fuel cell checks
fine at the points race? I believe that since VP is the exclusive supplier to NHRA
national events that tech is instructed to discourage the use of competitive
brands of fuel.

Re: Fuel check question
 

The problem I have had in the past here in Div 2. When I go to check fuel and its anything besides VP the fuel check guys give me a hard time. They say the color is wrong or something like that. I either run sunoco blue or C-12. I think they just want you to run the VP fuel.

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Ok... two part question here. First is there a tool that the average racer can buy to check his own fuel so that you don't get a surprise from tech? Second, what is the best/most common what to retrieve your fuel for fuel check? Are you guys just opening up the fuel cell and scooping a cup out?

Re: Fuel check question
 

I have always wanted a stocker, and still do.. but reading this about the fuel, who knows if your gonna pass teardown stuff scares me to death.. I think I will just keep bracket racing... I couldnt spend the cash to go to some of these races not knowing if my fuel that I purchased there is going to pass or not... Not knowing if I am gonna get the tech guy who interprets the rules the wrong way...

Why do you guys punish yourselves this way?? LOL Are they wanting less racers at the track or ????

Re: Fuel check question
 

NHRA gives a plus or minus on its fuel measurements. Starting in the middle of the scale on fuel gives the competitor a cushion due to a deviation in production tolerance from the base reading of each fuel supplied by the fuel manufacturers.

Fuels that lose their light end chemicals can read the same as fuels that have had extra oxygenators "added to enhance the fuel". Since the meter reading goes in the same direction for lost light end chemicals as well as for added oxygenators, when the reading gets outside the allowable parameters, the fuel fails.

That being said, what can cause fuel to go bad. The first thing is that some racing fuel is more stable than others. The less stable fuel will lose its light end chemicals quicker than others. We have proven this by simply leaving a cup of fuel open to the air. Some fuels only take a few minutes to go bad, while others have a much longer "open" time.

For those having trouble with fuel, a few things can be checked. The jug that the fuel is stored in can be bad. A simple test is to tighten the lid and turn the jug upside down. If fuel leaks out of the lid, that is where the light end chemicals are escaping.

Check the cap on your fuel cell. One competitor who was consistantly having fuel fail on his first qualifying run discovered a crack in the cap that was allowing the light end chemicals to slowly escape over the period of time the car was stored between events.

Be sure to put a cap on the tank vent when the car is stored between events. Just don't forget to uncap the vent before you race.

The fuel check man testing the fuel will ask for another sample if the fuel tests bad on the first draw. That is usually caused by stale fuel in the length of line where the valve is mounted for fuel checking. That fuel does not get recirculated, can go stale and needs to be flushed.

If you do experience a failure at fuel check, bring your fuel jug down to have the fuel checked. Good fuel that went into the car and then fails can mean there is something wrong with the fuel system in the car. It could be contaminated foam in the fuel cell or a contaminated fuel filter.


Travis Miller

(Disclaimer: Opinions expressed by me on this forum are exactly that, my opinions.)

P.S. for 69Cobra....Fuel cannot be scooped out of the tank. Fuel must be drawn from a fuel line that is part of the fuel system. The best way is to use a fuel valve designed for drawing fuel.

Re: Fuel check question
 

I've had C12 check fine after being in a vented, pvc half full fuel cell for 6 months. As far as tear down goes it's up to you to leave a little extra. If you make all your specs meet their specs there is zero room for error.
I remember when we had the hemi car. We would have to hit the top of the piston with a hammer to knock the oil out of the bearing. And we would ice the head to get it to check CC's. Was all of this needed? I doubt it now, but at the time we thought it was the only way to go fast.

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If I were to ever get a stocker it would be legal.. Might not be stupid fast.. but it would be legal.. lol

Re: Fuel check question
 

Racing gas testers are "fairly" expensive---around $450-550 for the Digitron which I believe is what NHRA uses---weather/humidity/temperature/additives ,evaporation, exposure to light,type of storage container etc are all things that will affect the outcome of the test---cleaning the sensor tip in unleaded gas after every sample/reading is mandatory after each use------Travis is right listen to him!!!!After you purchase your new batch of gas it is wise to have it tested for "legality" BEFORE you put any in your vehicle---saves having to hafta clean out the entire system a sometimes costly and time consuming project--FED 387

Re: Fuel check question
 

Thanks for the reply Travis.

Would you mind telling us what some of the more stable fuels are?

Where would I find one of these fuel valves?

Re: Fuel check question
 

Travis, since paying attention to where my fuel tests I've never seen it in the upper half of the spectrum. For the most part it will usually be slightly below the halfway point.

I am at a loss to why one half of the "window" is totally eliminated. With fuel going lower on the scale with exposure to air the lower part of the scale could be a bit wider. Maybe right on or perfect could be 3/4 of the way up the window instead of halfway?

Re: Fuel check question
 

Travis, thanks for that post only got warned once about my fuel, so I brought my jug to have tested. Kinda felt a bit stupid doing it that way but the official never said a word, checked my gas and gave me the thumbs up. I've met several racers who had issues race after race they only cured their issues up by switching fuels. Your results may vary. Joe

Re: Fuel check question
 

I've been wondering why the VP110 isn't on the accepted fuel list, There is a significant difference in cost. Maybe Travis could ask them to help us out?

Re: Fuel check question
 

There is nothing wrong with Sunoco Race fuel.
Purple can be a little inconsistent due to wide tolerance in processing. Blue and up are very consistent in production.

Some say other brand fuel is faster but that depends on number of things.

Have run Sunoco purple in my cars for years, blue last season becuase of ease of availability to me and cost. Have had issues with fuel check on and off for years. Had a big deal at Englishtown points meet 2011 have had enough of that.

As I said the fuel is good, the culprit is how the fuel is handled before getting in the hands of the racer. It's not a national problem.

The safe way is to install a fuel cell (PIA), buy fresh fuel at the track when racing NHRA. If the fuel being sold during the race is bad it's not the racers' problem.

Re: Fuel check question
 

Travis do you remember a single case in stock or super stock where you actually believe there were extra oxygenators added to enhance the fuel?

For what purpose - win a heads up race - capture #1 qualifier spot

It is obvious the intent of the testing and the equipment needs to be brought up to date

It seems it only causes needless heartache, grief and work - as well as expenses to the racers

Actually you are accusing a racer of cheating - if the test is accurately finding oxygenators - if it is not CHANGE the fricking test - how many years must this go on


Ron

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Hey does anyone remember when fuel check became mandatory for stock and super stock?

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I'm using Aeromotive #15631 in the new car....

Re: Fuel check question
 

A fuel sample valve can be found at Jegs, Summit, etc.

For info on racing fuels stability, do some research at the fuel brand websites.

If we were to change the test level from the halfway point to 3/4 way, that might help some who have old fuel but it would also give more leeway to anyone looking to enhance their fuel.

VP110 was on the accepted list a few years ago but has since been removed. I do not know why.

Travis Miller

(Disclaimer: Opinions expressed by me on this forum are exactly that, my opinions.)

Re: Fuel check question
 

The testing procedure does not need to be changed. It is working very well because a very, very high percentage of racers pass.

And yes I can remember when a racer added an oxygenator to the fuel. We still have the same test today to catch it and the test does work.

Travis Miller

(Disclaimer: Opinions expressed by me on this forum are exactly that, my opinions.)

Re: Fuel check question
 

So typical

Enough said -- "a racer"

Why do people need to improve performance in a dial in race?

No need to change - it has been this way for years and it only screws up a small number of times every weekend

OK got it

Sorry for the "fricking"

We cured ours with C-25 - the fuel test guys recommend it and say it is more stable and always passes

I forget is that what Pro Stock uses? just kidding - at least they never have an issue


Ron

Re: Fuel check question
 

Racing gasoline is a pretty consistent product , but there are a number of factors that will cause you to be bounced in tech .
Some of those factors are exposure to the atmosphere because of a poor fitting cap on the drum , jug , or fuel cell/fuel tank . Storing the race gas in extreme heat or cold will cause problems . Storing race gas in containers that previously held a different product , even if it was race gas will often get you bounced . Topping off the container of one brand or octane with a different brand or octane can cause problems .
The NHRA Fuel regs are simply an enforcement tool to try and keep the racing field level .
There is testing equipment that the racer can buy . In fact you can purchase the very same units NHRA uses , but they aren't cheap . And more importantly , your test results won't make any difference to the tech man , it's his equipment and his test that he goes by .
The best recommendation to avoid problems is to use fresh race gas , buy it from a reliable source , and take every precaution when you take a sample up to tech to be sure it's well sealed , and kept completely out of the sunlight .
The entire line of Renegade leaded racing fuels are on the accepted list for NHRA .

Re: Fuel check question
 

I've seen Sunoco, Rocket, Torco, and C12 all mixed in one jug pass as Sunoco Purple. Never personally had a problem myself either and I 50/50 mix pump gas and 110 when bracket racing. VP, Sunoco and Torco have all passed in my car when pours on top of whatever was in the cell.

Re: Fuel check question
 

A couple of other items to keep in mind concerning race gas . One , the color does not and can not determine whether a race gas is legal . A perfectly legal fuel can be off slightly in color due to small variations in batch production . And the color blue or purple can describe many brands and octanes . I know of a blue race gasoline that's 100 unleaded . The color is merely a guide , if the fuel you're claiming to have is supposed to be red but the sample you're submitting is blue , there's a problem . Renegade 110 is purple , Renegade 112 is blue , Renegade 114 is turquoise , Renegade 116 is red , Renegade 120 is rose .
Race gasoline kept under ideal conditions has a shelf life of approx. 1 1/2 to 2 years . Once it's been opened , about half that long . Fuel that's stored incorrectly can go off in far less time . Race gas stored in metal drums or cans lasts the longest , race gas in tanks less so , and race gas in tanks that are open to the atmosphere much less so . Plastic jugs are actually the worst way to store race gas .
And lastly , there is race gas tech and then there is race gas tech . A local track may miss a fuel sample that should be thrown out . Fuel tech at a national event rarely if ever misses one .

Re: Fuel check question
 

I agree. There is nothing wrong with Sunoco Race Fuel. I would prefer to honestly use it over VP for a variety of reasons, but it still won't pass for me. We ran purple for many years and it simply stopped checking. If it did check I was told it was borderline. It didn't matter if it was from a sealed drum or out of the pump at the track. I also think an exception should be made if you buy it at the track and it doesn't pass. That is not the racer's fault.

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......

Re: Fuel check question
 

Ryan
Know for a fact that you and I get our product from the same source and i know what the problem is. PM me.

VP is a pain with having to fog down the engine so it doesn't pit the valves and rust up the exhaust ports. PIA

Re: Fuel check question
 

When I raced my Friebrid Stocker...

First race I went to I brought my own feul Sunoco Purple right from the supplier that sold to the local tracks....it failed....I bought a fresg jug and fuel from the VP truck....C-11 it passed....Others told me it was the fastest fuel...

After that I bought fuel at the track the first day of the event...

Bought C-12 from the tracks fuel supplier at Cecil....Palmer Fuels...

there was something wrong with that fuel and I was not the only one who had issues. There seemed to be a concerted effort to let it slide, that was my opinion at that race....

After that race I cleaned out my fuel cell before any NHRA race I went to. I still have the little hand siphon I used to do it. I would wipe out the cell and let it air dry.....I bought a fresh jug and never put anything but good fresh fuel in it. I bought only C-11 and hated the stuff but it always passed....I ran anything I could get my hands on for non NHRA races and the car never went any slower or faster with any of the fuels....

I raced that same car last year and bought C-12 after having used Purple at my local track.......The C-12 passed 2 times at the Dutch......

I think the fuel check deal should be dropped except for heads up runs or at events where there is class runoffs. Way to many issues with fuel failing when it should be fine and other times it should fail but it doesn't......Almost any jug will leak if you turn it upside down......They all leak......Junk plastic.......I have spent time on the edges at the top trying to clean them up so the rubber o-ring will seal....You can make it better but probably not air tight.....

No one is trying to run stuff like Q-16 unless they are nuts........The fumes alone would kill your opponent.....

Re: Fuel check question
 

Jody, I think this might be a div 7 thing. The year before last at Sonoma, the div 7 guy told me my fuel (C11) was "marginal" and he would let it go but don't come back with it next round. I took the jug down to fuel check and one of the div 6 guys was there and checked it, said it was ok. Just to be safe, I bought 5 gallons of fresh and used it the rest of the weekend.
Ran the rest of the season with what was left in the barrel, all div 6 races, and nobody complained.

Re: Fuel check question
 

Couple of years ago, I had some C12 in my fuel cell from the Fall Vegas race.

I brought the car home and left it on my open trailer, covered up, all Winter .
When I went to Firebird in March, I siphoned the old stuff out , wiped out the cell and put 5 gal. of fresh C12 in it.

After T.T. 's , I took the old stuff over to fuel check... Whatta ya know? ...It checked right in the middle..Exactly the same as the new stuff.

Needless to say, I added and burned up the old stuff all weekend.
FWIW, I never had a problem with C12 bought at NHRA races.
__________________

Re: Fuel check question
 

I never failed Fuel Check. I always bought my fuel at the track the day of the race. Whatever was sold at the track was what I used that weekend.

Re: Fuel check question
 

I've used Sunoco Purple since I started in IHRA Stock in 1999 with a short experiment with Blue. I never had a problem except for once when I ran out and couldn't get a drum in time. I bought "something" purple that a questionable local speed shop claimed to be Sunoco. But my fuel sits in the car in the off season also and goes through the hot and humid Florida weather with no issues.