Misconception on a slow stocker winning
 

Why is there a concensus that you need a fast car to win or even compete. Let's put aside the first to red light syndrome. If you run the numbers and have a good reaction time with the slower vehicle and don't run in a car that is twelve hundreds under in your class, you should have the same chance of winning, even greater now that some cars with super powers(lol) can have problem with traction. Hope some you guys can help.CR

Re: Misconception on a slow stocker winning
 

Given traction, faster cars are generally more consistent. It's easier to drive the stripe as a chaser. It's easier to hit the tree in a faster car (depending on suspension type), since deep staging is not legal anymore.

That being said, the reigning IHRA World Champ is an L/SA Chevy II, and the final round of the Pro-Am at Pittsburgh was a Q/SA over an I/SA.

I feel competitive in my EF/SA Turismo, but realistically my chances are better still in a faster car. In a game of thousandths, even small variances in starting line and finish line driving consistency adds up dramatically.

Why *do* faster cars generally win more often? Self-fulfilling prophecy... there are simply more of them.

Re: Misconception on a slow stocker winning
 

I'm no expert, but.......while it is possible to win with a slow/low HP Stocker, low HP, small carb and cammed vehicles tend to me more sensitive to weather conditions - (temps, humidity, barometer, wind, etc.) than the other end of the spectrum, thus making them more difficult to be consistent and predict (dial).

Chassis mods and "finding" the tree can be more challenging for FWD cars and tire size is limited as well .

But some people like the challenge, the lower operating expenses and have the dedication to work at it. I'm sure Michael Beard can elaborate more on this.

He "treed" me by .02! :p

Re: Misconception on a slow stocker winning
 

My buddy with the V/SA Diplomat never believed me about how hard it was to dial a slow car until he got his car.

As Myron said, weather that changes a fast car .04 will change his car .1-.15, and you can never tell what the margin will be. His weather station thingy has proven to be almost useless.

The one advantage he has is the car will not spin even on the worst tracks.

Re: Misconception on a slow stocker winning
 

The 2 biggest disadvantages to a slow Stocker, the wind and track prep. Wind drastically affects a low powered car and dialing for it is a crap shoot at best. Being in the water box and watching the track crew spray the track is as bad to me as watching it rain on the track to a high powered car. And we won't even get into " wake surfing"!

Re: Misconception on a slow stocker winning
 

x2

Mike Moller
203 B/FS

Re: Misconception on a slow stocker winning
 

Mmmm.... never say never. I went to an NHRA national event last year, and had the Turismo running great first two days. For first round of eliminations, the barometer had dropped like a stone. My E.T. predictor said .15 slow. Oh, BTW, we had a 22 mph direct tailwind! I dialed DOWN. First round of eliminations, blew the tire off. Spun .08 and missed the dial by... you guessed it, .08. :rolleyes: Mm.

But yah, it's typically a 3:1 or 4:1 change over an 11-sec car. No substitute for seat time. You may dial big changes, but it can still be somewhat predictable with experience.

Re: Misconception on a slow stocker winning
 

Jody Lang certainly seems to have the "disadvantages" of a slower car under control!

Re: Misconception on a slow stocker winning
 

Before the ecomony took a dive a few years ago, I was the slower car in bracket racing at our local track 85 % of the time. (I keep records and stats)
I got alot of seat time looking over my shoulder and judging rate-of-gain as well as time-n-distance.

My Pure Stocker is even slower than my bracket car (by about .4 sec.)

I say that an experienced driver in a slow machine has the same chance of winning rounds as a fast car.

However, as stated above, it does seem that weather changes effect a slower car more.

Re: Misconception on a slow stocker winning
 

I'm glad that legends such as Billy Nees,and All Stars such as Myron and Micheal have help in making sense in explaining the exodus of my favorite class. Thank you. Claude

Re: Misconception on a slow stocker winning
 

I raced FWD Stockers for several years (2001-2006), and for all the reasons everyone has previously stated, yes, it is rather dificult to win in a slower car. Of course, everyone's idea of "slow" may differ. At E-town last weekend, I counted five Stockers, out of 80+, that were slower than 12.00. Like Michael said, when, probably, 75% (maybe more?) of the Stockers in the country are quicker than 12.00 (with a ton of 8.90 to 11.30 cars), it stands to reason they will win the most. Same with S/S, where the majority of cars winning are mid 8's to mid/high9's, with a few 10 and 11 second cars that have won over the years.

That said, a good driver, with experience, CAN be competitive in a slower car. Jody Lang has shown that for years in his12 second L-N/SA wagon. Michael Beard and myself have both gone many rounds, more than once, in FWD cars (Michel won a Combo race, maybe two, in an FF/SA Turismo, I finished eighth in IHRA Stock Division 1 points in 2003 and 2004 in a 17 second HF/SA Sunbird). Steve Klacik has gone rounds, and won races, in his street-driven 14 second H/PS Mustang. Billy Nees has won National and Divisional events in a 14 second V/SA Nova. Ed Fernandez has won races in his 13 second R-T/SA Gremlin (yes, a Gremlin). I'm sure there are more, but those are the ones in recent history that have proved that you can do it. Difficult, but do-able. Plus, they are lower budget, lower maintanence cars compared to 9 to11 second cars. We can argue the pros and cons of each all day long. Basically, for those starting in Stock, you have a broad choice of cars to pick from, which makes Stock "way cool". ")

Re: Misconception on a slow stocker winning
 

x2

Re: Misconception on a slow stocker winning
 

When you all start talking about slow cars your usually referring to 12 seconds or slower.
12 seconds is not slow compared to a 9 second car, but 14 seconds it is. These 12 sec cars can gauge a fast chaser reasonably well, as can the chaser gauge.

Now a 14 sec car such as mine is real easy to gauge by them 9-10 sec cars. Ask any of them high flying speedsters how easy it is to judge a slug just about at a stand still at the finish line.

In a real slow stocker you need a couple of talents to gauge correctly.
First and foremost, the ability to lick your back, this keeps the view in perspective.
Second, keep a log book to track all of the important stuff like wind, direction, dew point. This info is very valuable for your dial in as it has the most bearing.
Third, cut a good light, piece of cake.
Fourth, at about the 1,000 foot mark look for friends and relatives on the fence for instant input, this can be easily done through facial recognition.
Fifth, have fun during the run, turn on a directional signal, wave to people, if you have power windows put it down as your opponent is closing in as if you need directions.

So, there you have it, now go out and get yourself a slow car.

Ron Ortiz
U/SA slowness is dimensional phases

Re: Misconception on a slow stocker winning
 

Can't they just text you?

Re: Misconception on a slow stocker winning
 

Kyle, you still have to read the text message, and that is trying to cut it a little bit close. The look on their faces and their arms waving is the quickest read. But, like I stated that is only a bit of the equation. Human facial reactions occur at a rate of roughly 1.697 per millisecond, discounting muscle flex and brain wave transmittal. Thus, texting is not the way to go. I know that I stated at the 1,000 foot mark, but I was being conservative by about 995 feet.

How about some comments from some of you 9-10 sec cars on chasing a slow car (14 sec)

BTW Kyle, it took me about 5 minutes to stop laughing about your post. Good one.

Ron Ortiz
U/SA reactions are reactionary

Re: Misconception on a slow stocker winning
 

:)

Re: Misconception on a slow stocker winning
 

god couldnt win the eliminator in the witch doctor V/S

but the fast guys dont like racing us either !

captain jack
37 years of being chased !

Re: Misconception on a slow stocker winning
 

Lisa Bolton-Moser axlemania winner !!!!!!!!!!!

Re: Misconception on a slow stocker winning
 

A couple of thoughts. 1) When looking at a slow combination, pick one that has a large carb/throttle body relative to engine size. They seem to be less sensitive to weather change. 2) Weather station-based predictor software seems to be geared more to faster cars with more efficient engines. Some may be better suited than others for an slower car. I would think that highly detailed historical data for your particular combination would be invaluable. (that translates to seat time, too). **.02, please.

Re: Misconception on a slow stocker winning
 

Ok guys, this is probably my bracket racing experience but cars shouldn't drop that much. I know that Mark Yacavone is probably one of the only one to win in his F/Front wheel stocker with his 81 Ford Escort except now with better traction from tire compound and R&D from manufacturer I can't believe that we can't come up with some better combos.Calling Billy Nees and Mark Yacavone(I remember the Land Shark) to come up with a real dime racer for the challenge, beat up on the **100k and over stocker with a **5k car.(open to everyone) Claude

Re: Misconception on a slow stocker winning
 

I think that people like Dwight, Mark and myself have come up with more than enough "Dime Rockets" over the years that can and have "beat up on the **100k and over stocker with a **5k car".
I'm calling on YOU and a lot of other lurkers that read these threads to pick up the task and do something with it. I love talking about these cars but really don't like the fact that most of the time I'm just wasting my hunt and peck finger.
So when you're not reading these threads or playing with your bracket car (also a "dime rocket" I'm sure) just what is more important than doing a "Dime Rocket" Stocker? Eating is way over-rated and you can always live in the car. Sell your bracket car, give your belly button lint collection to your little brother and do a real car. When you get right down to it a lower classed Stocker is a great bracket car (and sometimes less expensive) anyway.
so Claude, what are you doing after lunch?

Re: Misconception on a slow stocker winning
 

I like dime rockets, once you get a history on them its ok. Wind is their kryptonite.

Re: Misconception on a slow stocker winning
 

Billy if I wasn't involve in knee deep in building my Camaro, on your suggestion M/SA instead of G/SA I would look for that short wheelbase truck. Larry I don't consider your car in **100 k class more on the Million dollar class(probably in labour and blown motors).lol I love everything from V/w to Witch Doctor's Buick. Claude

Re: Misconception on a slow stocker winning
 

dear billy the LEGEND nees, ginas ready when u are.

Re: Misconception on a slow stocker winning
 

Got heads and intake even a roller short block for M/CM but...the kids junior is taking precedence....for now...

Re: Misconception on a slow stocker winning
 

x2

I put my car together for less than 5K initially. It has been #1 qualifier and if the wind doesn't blow too hard and the humidity doesn't change drastically, it's fairly consistant. It might not be as exciting as my 8 second bracket car was but it's more fun.

Jim Mantle U/V/SA 6632

Re: Misconception on a slow stocker winning
 

cicero819

I own a dime rocket:1986 Chevy S/W PU C10 truck. Its runs ok, one time I won a seven round race in it. It always qualifies well.

Re: Misconception on a slow stocker winning
 

I love this term, "dime rocket". Would anyone be game if I asked for a pic or idea thread on this subject?

Re: Misconception on a slow stocker winning
 

This is what I was talking about and I'm sure there is more out there, so pulled them out of your garages and let's see them. Claude

Re: Misconception on a slow stocker winning
 

Toby and Jody Lang don't seem to have a problem!

Re: Misconception on a slow stocker winning
 

You can win in a slower car, raced a 12sec footbrake street eliminator ride in Super Pro @ Lebanon Valley. Qualified #1 for our track @ the Division 1 Bracket Finals. Fast cars can have a tough time judging the slow guys. Yes there's always the chance of red lighting first. Since i was always the slowest i always had to look over my shoulder, race enough of the fast cars and you'll figure out where they all should be. I got to race enough dragsters i was able to figure out if they would catch me or not. It can be done just not as easy like people said weather changes are more of a challenge with the slower cars. But they can be deadly, like people said look at Lang, he's racing a slow brick of a wagon and is killer with it. It can be done just most people choose to go fast, many think ya gotta be fast to win. Nope.

Re: Misconception on a slow stocker winnin fasterg
 

I better hide this thread from my kid and his N,O,P/SA Aspen 318 Wagon which is alway one of the slowest cars.....
as I do not want to discourage him from winning rounds.

2010 Div 7 Allstar in Stock
Went to US Nationals 2010 and beat a couple of the very Best Drag Pack Cars.
4th in Div 7 2010
3rd at Winters' 2012. Stock

His ragged 11 Sec. SS Aspen has beaten several New Mustangs and
8 Sec. Modified cars at National races that run 40 to 50 MPH Faster.

My old 13 Second Valiant won Pro Track Champ. LVMS against Mostly
8 to 10 Sec transbrake cars that are 60 MPH plus faster on our Div 7 Winning Team and I can't findthe bathroom without a flashlight at Night!

If you cut a light and know your car and weather well enough to Dial it right AND know where the finish is.......You will be OK with your slow slugmobile!

Just my .02 worth, sorry for the rant.

We bring to the races cars we can afford to build and still
pay the rest of our bills and eat regular every day!

There are not many people in our neck of the woods that can
race 100K plus cars.........If you can that is good and you are fortunate!

Irving Family Racing

Re: Misconception on a slow stocker winning
 

It is possible to be competitive in the slower cars. Look at Stan Kopejtka`s runner up at the LODRS in Great Bend last month in a EF/S Dodge. That`s his second final in a few year span. I myself have been fairly competitive with my old Buick V6 V/SA cars over the years,winning one Division 5 event and the Division 5 Championship in `96. It`s gotten tougher to win,everyone`s gotten way better and cars are more consistant.

Re: Misconception on a slow stocker winning
 

I'm really glad to see the response my tread has brought out. John I've seen your son's car at Indy last year and you and your family are what this sport is all about, Hawk I love that great article many moons ago about you and your Buick in Bracket USA, also have followed many great racers such as Don(the worm) Elgin and his very consistent Pontiac. I've have raced for many years and I have always been a supporter of slower race cars in stock and just wanted to see why so many are pulling away from the slower class. Don't get me wrong I love watching the new breed of quality fast new style retro Mustangs, Challengers and maybe Camaros when they do come out, they bring excitement to our sport but we can't afford to lose the thinking men(Billy Nees,Mark Yaccavone and so many out there that I might forget to mention), low dollar solution to the races. Lesson no 1, keep records,2) check weather station 3)keep equipement in tip top shape 4)let them chase you and Ed we won't bring the subject of worse red light.lol I could name a bunch of racers who have made quite a name for themselves running slower cars in brackets such as the late Steve Taylor and his wife Brenda runninng stock Cavaliers against all type of race cars and winning, Dan Fletcher(running anything with an engine) Bob Mullaney with his $1 dollar car Nova, Jody and Toby Lang from Washington State, Bret " Mr Dirt" racing various rental cars, Chuck Gillian in California, and many more who have won with slower cars, it's possible!Claude p.s. keep them coming. this is very helpfull when I'm knee deep in grease working at night on My Camaro K or L/SA now.lol

Re: Misconception on a slow stocker winning
 

Here are some great choices

Re: Misconception on a slow stocker winning
 

don't forget Scott Helms winning Gator Nationals in 09 in his big old heavy '66 Impala running Q/SA...

Re: Misconception on a slow stocker winning
 

Randall Campbell is doing great at Bristol this weekend in his R/SA truck, and has a well-timed bye run coming up. If he can survive a brutal semifinal matchup, this could be the weekend!

Re: Misconception on a slow stocker winning
 

Thomas Fletcher won the Div. 1 Pro-Am at Skyview today in the family's K/SA wagon, and he beat Sam Capizzi Jr's Q/SA Dart in the semis.

Re: Misconception on a slow stocker winning
 

I knew, if enough of the lower classes showed up, they would have just as good a chance to win, doesn't matter what people say, if you cut a great light and you run on your et and hopefully your opponent doesn't you have just as good chance to win(Forget the better or worse red light because the faster car still has as much chances to red light after). I wish I was racing right now but unfortunately I'm armpit in grease, the good news my Camaro is all stripped and ready for paint, motor is done(an older Bud Rowe engine completly rebuilt but without the $5k+ heads) now I have to install those parts back(I didn't have to have acid strip the rust process had something to do with it, even though I started with a rust free car until you get right into it).lol

Re: Misconception on a slow stocker winning
 

One creation from Nees race cars